Poll

How do you think Gehenna functions?

Divided in several cities/kingdoms under the goverment of a king who answers to Satan.
23 (33.8%)
Demons just lurk around unless Satan or another Demon King orders them to do something.
24 (35.3%)
It's just a dark awful place none wants to be at, that's why demon posses humans, they want to get the Hell out of there.
17 (25%)
Other (please comment).
4 (5.9%)

Total Members Voted: 59

Author Topic: Gehenna and the Demon Kings  (Read 98256 times)

Offline MetallicArcher

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Gehenna and the Demon Kings
« on: August 31, 2013, 04:23:13 AM »
So, at the "Characters Emblems" thread, came up the subject of whereas there are 8 Demon Kings + Satan or if the Demon Kings are 8 counting Satan. (Update: There are 8 Kings + Satan.)

http://www.theblueknight.host-ed.me/forum/index.php/topic,138.msg6123.html#msg6123

Since the subject is stretch in itself but can expand to other subjects such as translation divergences among versions, what's the role of a Demon King (not seriously, what are these guys supposed to do? the only thing we have seen Mephisto and Amaimon do so far is killing time) and how Gehena and it's inhabitants are organised, I extended the title to "Gehena and Demon Kings" so we can have a broader and more active discussion.

Quote
The 8 Demon Kings are:

1st - Lucifer - King of Light

2nd - Samael - King of Time

3rd - Azazel- King of Spirits/Air

4th - Iblis - King of Fire

5th - Egyn - King of Water

6th - Astaroth - King of Rot

7th - Amaimon - King of Earth

8th - Beelzebub - King of Insects

About Azazel, the King of Air and the King of Spirits:



Ghosts belong to Azazel (if my katakana isn't failing me): "Familiars/dependents of the 'King of Air/Spirits' Azazel."

Satan's and Gehena Gate's profiles (courtesy of tardar-sauce):

(click to show/hide)

You may also want to check the "Demon & Character Profiles" thread ( http://www.theblueknight.host-ed.me/forum/index.php/topic,230.0.html ).

Edit:

Quote
Special Thanks to @facets-and-rainbows
(http://facets-and-rainbows.tumblr.com/post/159176615140/strongcraving-from-ane-volume-19-my-dudes)

Ranks for GEHENNA’S POWER STRUCTURE from Vol. 19

(click to show/hide)

The "Twin Stars":

- Shemihaza "Emperor of Creation"

- Arumumaeru/Arahmel/Armumahel "Emperor of Void"

Factions:

(click to show/hide)

Anti-human (Lucifer) faction:

- Lucifer (has a body)
- Iblis (has a body)
- Egyn (has a body)
- Astaroth (has a body)

Pro-human (Samael) faction:

- Shemihaza (crystallized)
- Armumahel (crystallized)
- Samael (has a body)
- Azazel (crystallized)

Neutral:

- Amaimon (has a body) -> Says he doesn’t care about the conflict, but he’s helping the pro-human group right now because he is somehow indebted to Samael.
- Beelzebub (has a body)

Appears to get a whole side to himself:

- Satan (waiting for a body)
« Last Edit: April 07, 2017, 05:46:08 PM by MetallicArcher »

Offline MetallicArcher

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Re: Gehenna and Demon Kings discussion and theories
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2013, 04:43:08 AM »
As for the eight symbols and eight demon kings, that wouldn't surprise me in the least. Eight is a number with particularly strong meaning in East Asian cultures, and Katou has shown that she does the research.

Does it actually say that there are eight of them?

Because in the last official volume, Mephisto implied there are only seven (he says Amaimon has the lowest seat and that there are six kings above that, himself included).

Yeah, I'm curious about that, too. Maybe it's the seven Demon Kings plus Satan himself? Hmm...

There are 8 Demon Kings:

(click to show/hide)

Amaimon is the 7th King of the 8 Kings, with 6 more Kings over him.

Satan is over those 8 Kings.

(click to show/hide)

So, I understand Satan would be like an Emperor with the Kings under him. There is a King under Amaimon who would be the 8th King.

What is up to discussion is if Mephisto is 2nd after Satan or 2nd among the Kings (but I have trouble imagining a power greater then time-space manipulation).

^ Yeah, but that's the scanlation. My question is, do they actually call them the eight demon kings in the original Japanese too?

Because the official manga refers to them as the Baal, which (according to Wikipedia) is connected to the seven princes of Hell. Are we sure 'eight demon kings' isn't just a standard expression, or alternatively, are we sure they aren't including Satan?

That's what I've been wondering myself. On that note, I'm curious if/when we'll see the other Demon Kings. I have the feeling they're all just as autonomous as Mephisto.

Also, I wonder if that sigil on Mephisto's tie is one of the Auspicious Symbols, as was mentioned earlier.

Could you share a pic of the official translation for that page?

As far as I can remember, the manga has mentioned:

- Samael (Mephisto) , King of Time and Space
- Amaimon, King of Earth
- Iblis, King of Fire
- Astharot, King of Rot

The problem with Baal is that the princes it mentions are:

Quote
Lucifer: pride
Mammon: greed
Asmodeus: lust
Leviathan: envy
Beelzebub: gluttony
Satan: wrath
Belphegor: sloth

Basically, no Samael, Amaimon, Iblis or Astharot (yes I checked if they were their alternative names in other languages).

But if we use the system of the 8 sub-princes by "Abramelin the Mage" we get:

Quote
- Astarot: Usually written “Ashtaroth”.

- Magot: Usually written Maguth.

- Asmodee: Usually written“Asmodeus,” and sometimes “Chashmodai”.

- Belzebud: Also written frequently “Beelzebub“, “Baalzebub”, “Beelzebuth”, and “Beelzeboul”. From Hebrew, BOL, = Lord, and ZBVB,= Fly or Flies; Lord of Flies.

- Oriens: from Latin, Oriens, = rising or Eastern. This name is also written Uriens. By the Rabbins he is also called SMAL, Samael, which is derived from the Hebrew root SML, which means “a figure, image, or idol”.

- Paimon: Is also frequently written “Paymon”, and sometimes “Paimonia”. Paimon is also called by the Rabbins by the title of OZAZL, Azazel, which is a name used in Leviticus with reference to the Scape-Goat

- Ariton: It is also often called “Egyn,” or “Egin”.

- Amaimon: Also written frequently “Amaymon”.

Ok, someone on mangafox posted this:

Quote
So far we have:

Amaimon - King of Earth

Astaroth - King of Rot

Egyn - King of Water

Azazel - King of Spirits

Beelzebub - King of Insects

Iblis - King of Fire

Samael - King of time

http://forums.mangafox.me/threads/419455-Eight-Demon-Kings?p=10778487&viewfull=1#post10778487

So, we have seven names, "Abramelin the Mage" gives us eight, let's check the ones that do not fit in our list:

- Magot

- Asmodeus

Magot seems to be associated to witchcraft (I can't really find all that much information about him, sorry).

Of, Asmodeus, I found this depiction:

Quote
He is a Great King, Strong, and Powerful. He appeareth with Three Heads, whereof the first is like a Bull, the second like a Man, and the third like a Ram; he hath also the tail of a Serpent, and from his mouth issue Flames of Fire. His Feet are webbed like those of a Goose. He sitteth upon an Infernal Dragon, and beareth in his hand a Lance with a Banner. .

So I would say he could be Iblis.

I can't take pictures right now, but Mephisto says: "Amaimon tarnishes the lowest seat of the Baal. He is King of Earth, and the seventh of us. Including me, there are six kings above him. Satan stands even higher, ruling over all."

In any case, I don't think Katou is sticking to a single system with the Demon Kings' names. I checked Wikipedia's pages on demonology (yes, very unprofessional of me. XD), and it looks like every self-proclaimed 'expert' in the field had their own classification. Most likely, Katou's picking and choosing what seems most interesting/balanced.

Personally, I can't wait to see Asmodeus or the equivalent thereof~
« Last Edit: October 11, 2013, 02:13:09 PM by NeeNee »

Offline MetallicArcher

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Re: Gehenna and Demon Kings discussion and theories
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2013, 04:59:11 AM »
Chapter Japanese RAW if someone wants to make his/her own interpretation of what Mephisto says:

http://www.mcanime.net/manga_enlinea/ao_no_exorcist/raws/405998/1#ver

The specific pages to be analysed:

Mephisto presents himself as the King of Time:

(click to show/hide)

Mephisto speaks of Amaimon's rank:

(click to show/hide)

Translation and clarifications about the RAW by Chinonamida:

Mephisto: I am Gehenna’s second most influential person;
the King of Time Samael,
from the demon kings' circle; (kanji reads: the eight pretenders/furigana reads: ba'al), the one and only.
Amaimon dishonor the lowest seat of the ba’al,
he's (kanji reads: The ethereal world/furigana reads: gehenna)'s seventh most influential person; the King of Earth.
Above the King of Earth, there is six kings including me.
Furthermore, (Kanji reads: Demon God/furigana reads: Satan) reigns above us.
It’s fine you grew aware of yourself as the Son of Satan but,
as you are now, you are the same as Amaimon.
Beating up Satan, do you understand now how amusing/laughable/preposterous that is?
You only defeated the Impure King with the aid Ucchusma’s power.
It's a bother if you get carried away.

Thanks, Chino! ^^

So the official translation was correct, saying that Amaimon is the seventh and lowest king.

Which means that either Mephisto can't count, or we have a king too many.
That's an idiom.

"dishonour the lowest seat" means its insulting for the lowest seat to have him above.

I don't know what's exactly in the official translation, but believe me, I'm right.

Quote from: Wikipedia
八候王(バール)
悪魔の王族。現在判明しているのは「地の王」アマイモン、「腐の王」アスタロト、「水の王」エギュン、「氣の王」アザゼル、「蟲の王」ベルゼブブ、「火の王」イブリース、「時の王」サマエルの7名。

Eight pretenders (Ba'al)

Demon Kings' circle. The 7 we know so far are named: Amaimon (King of Earth), Astaroth (King of Rot), Egyn (King of Water), Azazel (King of Spirits), Beelzebub (King of Insects), Iblis (King of Fire), Samael (King of Time).

So it's like this:

- Satan -

1 Lucifer
2 Samael
3
4
5
6
7 Amaimon
8

Oooh! So that explains everything, then. Amaimon is the seventh and second lowest, and apparently Mephisto has more respect from the last in row since he's saying Amaimon is an insult to him.

I wonder who that last king is...
« Last Edit: October 11, 2013, 02:13:23 AM by HeavenlyArcher »

Offline Desktop Warrior

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Re: Gehena and Demon Kings discussion and theories
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2013, 05:58:04 AM »
Thanks for making this thread, Archer.

In response to your question about the nature of Gehenna, I think it's similar to the Nevernever from the Dresden Files universe. I don't know if anyone here is familiar with the series. Basically, the Nevernever doesn't have the same notions of time and space as Earth does. Entities from the Nevernever can either create entryways into our world or can be drawn to it artificially. If you enter into this world through ours, you may not always find yourself in the same place, and certain natural laws that govern here don't do so there. Locations in the Nevernever only correspond to places on Earth with a similar magical atmosphere. So, you can cross from, say, Chicago into this other universe and come out after a short time in Siberia (depending, again, on how time flows in that instance).

I think Gehenna is similar in that way. Following from that, I think the artificial Gehenna Gate in Siberia wasn't just created to bring demons into Assiah: it was made as a transportation device. There are probably corresponding Gates all over Earth, which the Illuminati use to travel more quickly from place to place.

I also believe that Assiah and Gehenna are meant to be separate from each other, and if this opening of artificial Gates becomes more prolific, it's going to have disastrous consequences for both worlds. I have more related theories, but they belong in different threads.

Offline Paradox

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Re: Gehenna and Demon Kings discussion and theories
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2013, 09:04:40 AM »
The issue about the demon kings is one of my favourite issues in the BE universe. Therefore the thread on mangafox is to be recommended.

There is one king left. We don't know the name of the king of air. There is a theory it's Pazazu from the "Miyama-Uguisu Mansion Incident".

About Gehenna:
http://mangafox.me/manga/ao_no_exorcist/v01/c001/31.html
The two worlds/dimensions are working like a mirror. Assiah is filled with humans and Gehenna is filled with demons at the same time and in the same locality.

Quote from: Desktop Warrior
There are probably corresponding Gates all over Earth, which the Illuminati use to travel more quickly from place to place.
Like a wormhole? But isn't this function a bit lame? All the effort for "sightseeing"?

I can't wait to see the other kings. I vote for Astaroth for this arc because the exorcists had killed two of his pets after all. I shouldn't be at all surprised if he rules over the Illuminati (just a thought).

Offline Desktop Warrior

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Re: Gehenna and Demon Kings discussion and theories
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2013, 02:40:10 PM »
Quote
Like a wormhole? But isn't this function a bit lame? All the effort for "sightseeing"?

Not sightseeing. Transportation. My theory presupposes that the Illuminati need to get from place to place on Earth quickly and with minimal risk of being detected by mortal authorities. What better way to do that than use a method few people have ever even heard of? Quite possibly, the Illuminati is in league with, or being used by, one of the Kings of Hell, who allows them to set up Gehenna Gates on his territory. As you mentioned, Paradox, it would likely be Astaroth.

Offline NeeNee

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Re: Gehenna and Demon Kings discussion and theories
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2013, 03:13:11 PM »
^ But don't they already have magic keys for that? Or do you think those were all created by Mephisto?

Offline Desktop Warrior

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Re: Gehenna and Demon Kings discussion and theories
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2013, 03:30:41 PM »
Well, I think the keys are for the Order only, and utilize another kind of wormhole that's "legitimate." People outside the Order aren't supposed to have them. =D

Offline GolPhee

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Re: Gehenna and Demon Kings discussion and theories
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2013, 07:32:21 PM »
Slightly off topic, but . . .

Quote
- Ariton: It is also often called “Egyn,” or “Egin”.

Egin is Yuri's last name. I wonder if that means anything

Offline weazulgrl

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Re: Gehenna and Demon Kings discussion and theories
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2013, 12:26:59 AM »
Slightly off topic, but . . .

Quote
- Ariton: It is also often called “Egyn,” or “Egin”.

Egin is Yuri's last name. I wonder if that means anything
Egin is a legit last name, tho. I believe it's a Germanic last name with some alternate versions floating around too. I also found searching for info on that last name that there's a number of people with that last name that hail from Turkey as well, and another site listing a lot of Egins in Ireland. so while it could mean something there's also a chance it's just a coincidence.
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Offline MetallicArcher

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Re: Gehenna and Demon Kings discussion and theories
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2013, 12:56:37 AM »
Ok, many things to say, I have been doing some research, and I have something for those who think the Demon Kings are 8 counting Satan.

As you guys probably already know, Iblis is a demon from Muslim mythology.

Iblis, also known as Shayṭān, is, according to Muslims, a jinn.

Jinn are, what we would normally refer to as "genie" or "djinn".

Quote
The jinn are spiritual creatures mentioned in the Qur'an and other Islamic texts who inhabit an unseen world in dimensions beyond the visible universe of humans. Together, the jinn, humans and angels make up the three sapient creations of God. The Qur'an mentions that the jinn are made of a smokeless and "scorching fire", but also physical in nature, being able to interact physically with people and objects and likewise be acted upon. Like human beings, the jinn can also be good, evil, or neutrally benevolent and hence have freewill like humans and unlike angels. The jinn are mentioned frequently in the Qurʾan, and the 72nd surah is titled Sūrat al-Jinn.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jinn

Now, about Iblis, he is to the Islam what Satan is to Christianity:

Quote
Quote
In Islam the Devil is known as Iblīs (Arabic: إبليس‎, plural: ابالسة abālisah) or Shayṭān (Arabic: شيطان‎, plural: شياطين shayāṭīn). In Islam Iblis is a jinn who refused to bow to Adam. The primary characteristic of the Devil, besides hubris, is that he has no power other than the power to cast evil suggestions into the chests of men, women, and jinn, although the Quran does mention appointing jinn to assist those who are far from God in a general context.

Quote
When God created Adam, he commanded all the angels and Iblis (whose rank allowed him to be considered equal to that of an angel) to prostrate to Adam as was termed "the Best of Creation". All the angels did so but Iblis refused to obey, and was brought into a state of rebellion against God. For this God cast him out of Jannah (paradise), and intended to punish him. Iblis begged God to delay the punishment until Yawm al-Qiyāmah (Last Judgment), which was granted by God.

Iblis was proud and arrogant and considered himself superior to Adam, since Adam was made from clay and Iblis from smokeless fire. For this act of disobedience, God cursed him to Hell for eternity, but gave him respite until the Day of Judgment, after Iblis requested it. Iblis obtained permission from God and vowed that he would use this time to lead all men and women astray to Hell as a way of revenge against them. By refusing to obey God’s order he was thrown out of paradise and thereafter he was called "Shaytan."

Quote
In Islamic theology, Shaytan and his minions are "whisperers," who whisper into the chests of men and women, urging them to commit sin. This is where the desire to sin comes from, according to Islam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil_%28Islam%29

The story of how Iblis "fell" and became "Shaytan" is kind of similar to the story of how Lucifer "fell" and became "Satan" (there are actually a LOT of similarities between Islam and Christianity).

As a plus, the concept of Iblis as a "whisperer" to the chest of people to encourage them to sin, is kind of a similar concept to that which Fujimoto gave us on Ch. 1 when he said:

(click to show/hide)

And let's not forget Yukio's explanation on why Satan was able to take control of Fujimoto:

(click to show/hide)

On the other hand, I would expect Satan, who self declared himself a "perfect being of infinite power" to be able to do something more than shooting multicolored fire, as much damage said fire can make, I would still be more scared of the guy who walks through walls, turn into seemingly any animal he wants, manipulates times and is at various places at the same moment.

Then of course, there is the detail of all "jinn" who disobeyed Ala being refered as "shaytans" with Iblis being kind of like their leader:

Quote
According to The Oxford Dictionary of Islam, shaytan is used in the Quran in the singular, and the plural shayatin often interchangeably with Iblis, who is "considered to be a particular shaytan."

@Paradox

About "The King of Spirits/Wind" from the Mangafox thread:

Quote
In the English version we all agree that Azazel is the king of spirits? But in the French version he is the king of Air. So I guess the Japanese word that describes Azazel refers to both spirit and air. So Azazel is the king of air and spirits.

http://forums.mangafox.me/threads/419455-Eight-Demon-Kings?p=12128723&viewfull=1#post12128723

@NeeNee

I always assumed the keys were ONE of Mephisto's contributions to the Order, like that something that allows you to jump from one place of the planet to another are the kind of thing you would expect a guy with space manipulation abilities to provide you.

@Desktop Warrior

I think that Assiah and Gehena weren't originally separated, that maybe they were separated for some reason by someone.

I find the way the Gehena gates functions interesting.

When the Angelic Legion finds the forming Gehena gate they ask if it means that Satan is around, like, Satan needs to come and open the gate from Assiah to Gehena, not from Gehena to Assiah.

Also, I understand, even with a Gehena gate open, demons still need to posses something to come to Assiah, but, if the Gehena gate opens you can make physical things cross to Gehena (say, when Satan tried to take Rin with him).

In "The Mad Ravings of Mephisto", we are given a bunch of questions without answer. One of them is that "Why do Gehena and Assiah exist in the way they do?" I think that having Satan trapped at the other side of the gate is kind of convenient, not solely for humans but also for demons (say, those like Kuro or Uke and Mike who make alliances and lend their power to humans by protecting economical activities).

As for Gehena and Assiah being mirrored, yes, I do think it means that each location is Assiah corresponds to one (at least) geographically similar in Gehena.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2013, 01:03:57 AM by HeavenlyArcher »

Offline NeeNee

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Re: Gehenna and Demon Kings discussion and theories
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2013, 03:02:41 AM »
The issue about the demon kings is one of my favourite issues in the BE universe. Therefore the thread on mangafox is to be recommended.

There are two threads, actually (because MF is weird like that):
http://forums.mangafox.me/threads/283930-The-Other-Eight-Kings?daysprune=-1
http://forums.mangafox.me/threads/419455-Eight-Demon-Kings?daysprune=-1

Quote
There is one king left. We don't know the name of the king of air. There is a theory it's Pazazu from the "Miyama-Uguisu Mansion Incident".

Yup.

Quote from MF:
Eight Demon Kings

Samael - King of Time
Azazel - King of Spirits
Beelzebub - King of Insects
Amaimon - King of Earth
Egyn - King of Water
Iblis - King of Fire
Astaroth - King of Rot
Pazuzu - King of Wind

now we have all the names Pazuzu is the Demon King of the Wind he appear from the one-shot pilot of Ao no Exorcist the title of the one shot is THE MIYAMA-UGUISU MANSION INCIDENT.

and this is Pazuzu.

Egin is a legit last name, tho. I believe it's a Germanic last name with some alternate versions floating around too. I also found searching for info on that last name that there's a number of people with that last name that hail from Turkey as well, and another site listing a lot of Egins in Ireland. so while it could mean something there's also a chance it's just a coincidence.

I wonder if they are actually part foreign (non-Japanese)? It was weird that Ernst was given a Western name, too.

Jinn are, what we would normally refer to as "genie" or "djinn".
As a plus, the concept of Iblis as a "whisperer" to the chest of people to encourage them to sin, is kind of a similar concept to that which Fujimoto gave us on Ch. 1 when he said:

(click to show/hide)

I just really hope it won't end like some other manga I finished recently.

Hero: I have defeated your eight generals and gained full access to my powers. Now it's your turn!
Big Bad, who is also his father: Muahaha! You can't defeat me! I live in the heart of all humans! As long as human greed and weakness exist, I shall live forever! (escapes into hell)
Hero: Then I will hunt you forever! (follows him through the rapidly closing gate)
Hero's friends: Err... okay? We'll just go home then, I guess. Good luck, dude!
(Series ends)
Me: Well, f*** you too!

I swear, I will throw my books at the wall if this happens in Blue Exorcist. -_-

Offline MetallicArcher

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Re: Gehenna and Demon Kings discussion and theories
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2013, 04:09:30 AM »
@NeeNee

I trust Kazue to be a better author than that,

Also, Azazel is King of Spirits/Air.

Offline NeeNee

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Re: Gehenna and Demon Kings discussion and theories
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2013, 04:14:21 AM »
^ Are we sure Spirits and Air are the same thing? I know somebody said so, but it's not really confirmed.

Another great post on the Demon Kings (slightly outdated now, but the theory is still valid):
http://forums.mangafox.me/threads/296557-A-Theory-on-Demons.?daysprune=-1

And a more recent version of the same idea:
http://saccharinedemon.tumblr.com/post/51216472989/headcanon

Offline MetallicArcher

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Re: Gehenna and Demon Kings discussion and theories
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2013, 04:52:18 AM »
@NeeNee

I don't really remember Azazel being actually mentioned in the manga chapters, so I guess the person who published the list with the those 7 Kings got it from some extra in one of the tanokobon.

Best option, in such a case, would be seeing the tanokobon raw to check the kanji and see if it happens to be translated both ways.

But I do can tell you now, it that there is a kanji that translates as both "spirit" and "air" here I leave it:

気 -> air; atmosphere; mind; mood; spirit; http://jisho.org/kanji/details/%E6%B0%97

And, most importantly, let's remember the Travesti Ghost chapter:

 

So it's not far fetched to think ghosts are "Air Type" demons.

PD: I would have to check my Yokai dictionary, but I think most Yurei are associated to a wind element.