Author Topic: Chapter 123  (Read 2192 times)

Offline xyzt

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Chapter 123
« on: August 03, 2020, 03:32:02 PM »
And the sibling fight continues

https://mangaplus.shueisha.co.jp/viewer/1007473

It is hilarious watching Izumo trying to sound stalwart and reassuring to Suguro only to be called rugged instead.

These kind of lines really make me feel Renzo is going to end up a villain beaten by Suguro and Izumo.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2020, 03:34:24 PM by xyzt »

Offline tandem

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Re: Chapter 123
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2020, 03:47:39 PM »
I'm puzzled. Is it reasonable to suffer more from an explosion than three gunshot?

Offline xyzt

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Re: Chapter 123
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2020, 03:55:32 PM »
I'm puzzled. Is it reasonable to suffer more from an explosion than three gunshot?

Would depend on how close you are to the explosion and what kind of explosion it is, would it not?

Also regarding Suguro and Izumo, the character development with both is also nice to notice with Izumo going from laughing at him in a dangerous situation in the beginning to trying to be reassuring for him when he is in conflict, and for Suguro to go from 'I will kill renzo and die' in the beginning of the illuminati arc to being more open about his uncertainity and clear desire to not wanting to do it. Wish koneko and Renzo also had this kind of gradual and continuous character development throughout the series but I have completely given up on (atleast) Renzo ever having any gradual growth as a character.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2020, 03:57:26 PM by xyzt »

Offline facets-and-rainbows

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Re: Chapter 123
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2020, 06:13:34 PM »
THE TWINS ARE FIIIIGHTIIINNNNNNG (still)

-Ah darn, even after Yukio making a whole scene, the Illuminati contraption is still salvageable and they're going to get back to work on their *sigh* telomeres.

-Ow, Lightning's hand got burned when his familiars got hit. Not that he seems to mind that much.
-Bon and Izumo talking about fighting their friends is sad : ( But also they're ADORABLE
-I just realized that every single person in this helicopter is a potential tsukkomi, thank goodness, Konekomaru needs backup

-Demon Rin! DEMON RIN TALKING TO YUKIO! DEMON RIN VS YUKIO! DE- oh nvm.
-I like that demon!Rin's most threatening insult is...just Rin and Shura's normal insults for Yukio smashed together (get ready to die, crybabybookwormfoureyes!)
-Someone in the Discord pointed out that Yukio's comments (about demon!Rin being Rin's true nature when his human mask is removed) parallel Toudou's comments to Yukio at the end of the Kyoto arc. Poor kid's been thinking of himself and Rin as "basically demons pretending to be human" for way too long.
-Pffff leave it to Katoh to sneak in a little comic relief with the infinite glasses bit.
-Rin's faces are GOLD throughout this little stretch too.
-gaaaah Yukio coming up with YET MORE RATIONALE for his suicidal thoughts : (
-look. Look if they're going to use you for their Satan ritual, we can stop them by killing THEM just as easily as by killing YOU, and that has the added bonus that they can't just find some other way

-I want to know why the Illuminati even HAS several shipping containers full of coal tars. Like...just...loose coal tars in boxes. Is there something on board that eats them? Is this part of an evil plan to mildly inconvenience a whole town? Do they just have a trouble-with-tribbles situation on their hands?
-The real answer, of course, is SO YUKIO CAN BE AWESOME
-Like I'm actually pretty stoked to see Yukio adapting so fast to his new guns that can only burn demons
-I CAN MAKE A DUST EXPLOSION AS LONG AS THE DUST IS DEMONS, CHECKMATE RIN
-Very neat moment, honestly, Illuminati cargo choices aside.

-Demon Rin! DEMON RIN TALKING TO YUKIO! DEMON RIN VS YUKIO! DEMON RIN CHAPTER NEXT MONTH!

Offline earthforge

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Re: Chapter 123
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2020, 01:07:34 AM »
The end of this chapter in a nutshell:


I love my garbage son, but yegads he's really gone off the deep end and taken Rin with him. I'm really worried about demon-Rin's "love? family? who needs that shit after Yukio decided they ain't worth it".

Even though Yukio literally recast his relationships and place as "Rin's friends and home". As expected, he feels that Rin literally took everything he had, so they're Rin's now. I wouldn't be surprised if this comes back more directly.

I'm looking forward to Rin beating the everloving shit out of Yukio, especially after Yukio got to literally walk all over him TWICE.

Still, I am very worried for Yukio. While Rin will likely be brought back by a combo of power-of-friendship and the Koumaken's hilt, I see the groundwork getting laid for Yukio going even more antagonist-y. Getting beaten half to death by demon Rin yelling "I'll show you real strength" is not likely to make him snap out of it.
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Offline chinonamida

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Re: Chapter 123
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2020, 06:03:47 AM »
Yeah, the glasses and burning clothes gags made my day. x)


Demon!Rin is unsurprisingly doing the same telegraphic punches as Rin.

I'm really starting to wish for Rin to take hand-to-hand combat classes.

When Rin grabbed Yukio in a chokehold, from the side this time, and Yukio got behind him, I thought "GERMAN SUPLEX! YUKIO, DO A GERMAN SUPLEX!" but it didn't happen. x)
(Never do a chokehold from the side, unless you want to be suplexed.)
(Pulling hair works. Though it's banned in almost all combat sports, this is a real fight...)
(Kids, don't do german suplexes at home. They're dangerous. They can kill.)


I also noticed it's not clear whether Yukio is talking about Rin or himself when he's talking about home and friends...
If I remember correctly, his memory of Shura is from when she talked to him in the cell after he got arrested, his memory of Shiemi is from when she talked to him at the shop before he ran away, his memory of Ryuuji is from when he talked to him at the wedding, ... I don't remember for the others ... but out of the three I think I remember, they're all from scenes where his friends were trying to help him and asking him to help them help him.
If that's the first thing he thinks of when he thinks about his friends, that's telling a lot about him. It confirms that, even though he refused their help, the fact they tried to help is important to him; or in other words, that he wants to be helped even though he thinks they can't help him. imho.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2020, 06:10:59 AM by chinonamida »

Offline Angelajohn

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Re: Chapter 123
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2020, 07:26:50 AM »
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Offline earthforge

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Re: Chapter 123
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2020, 02:31:12 PM »
Demon!Rin is unsurprisingly doing the same telegraphic punches as Rin.

I'm really starting to wish for Rin to take hand-to-hand combat classes.

Yeah, that sounds more useful for Rin than sword classes. He's getting beaten by someone not known to be a specialist in hand-to-hand combat. Osceola could probably wipe the floor with Rin.

(Pulling hair works. Though it's banned in almost all combat sports, this is a real fight...)

I think that was a combo of pulling Rin's hair and pointing the gun at Rin. Rin instinctively jerks away whenever the Armumahel gun is pointed at him, and that's what broke the hold. The only time Yukio could hit Rin with the bullets was after guiding Rin to an area where it was physically impossible to dodge.

I also noticed it's not clear whether Yukio is talking about Rin or himself when he's talking about home and friends...
If I remember correctly, his memory of Shura is from when she talked to him in the cell after he got arrested, his memory of Shiemi is from when she talked to him at the shop before he ran away, his memory of Ryuuji is from when he talked to him at the wedding, ... I don't remember for the others ... but out of the three I think I remember, they're all from scenes where his friends were trying to help him and asking him to help them help him.
If that's the first thing he thinks of when he thinks about his friends, that's telling a lot about him. It confirms that, even though he refused their help, the fact they tried to help is important to him; or in other words, that he wants to be helped even though he thinks they can't help him. imho.

Ah, the missing pronouns strike again.

Tbh I think it works more strongly if Yukio is trying to attribute all his friends as "Rin's friends & home", as a justification for why Rin needs to kill him. But I agree, he does care about the willingness of his friends to save him, particularly Bon, Shura, and Shiemi.

Of course Rin isn't in that list. But that is because he views Rin trying to save him as an assertion of his own weakness. These chapters seem to be proving him right. Both Rin and Yukio had defined roles in their family unit. Rin was the protector of the family unit, but also stupid and malfunctioning in society. Yukio was the success story who'd go on to do something, but also weak and needing protection. Yukio broke the social contract when he proved he could walk all over Rin (literally), and that's why Rin keeps repeating how Yukio is actually "strong". Rin's now protecting the family unit by pushing Yukio back in line. So Yukio thinks he's strong now? Bullshit.

The story has deconstructed the whole "declarations of protection" trope. Both twins decided to protect each other, but that's all been shown to be based on their own need for identity in the family unit. Rin embraced his role as the strong one and accepted/internalized his stupidity. Yukio challenged his role as the weak one, and Rin will not accept that. This isn't a loving sib dynamic -- this is a protector-victim dynamic.

Regarding Yukio, hopefully he will begin to be honest with his want for help after this confrontation. If Toudou's foreshadowing is any indicator (and so far it's been the most reliable one), Yukio will eventually drop the pretense and manipulation. But I doubt it'll be a good thing at first.
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Offline TheBlueCloud

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Re: Chapter 123
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2020, 04:31:39 PM »
No way that is Demon!Rin at the end. It is probably just regular old Rin acting as his demon self trying to beat some sence into Yukio. I mean, look at the horns and speech bubble.

Offline chinonamida

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Re: Chapter 123
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2020, 09:19:27 PM »
Yeah, that sounds more useful for Rin than sword classes. He's getting beaten by someone not known to be a specialist in hand-to-hand combat. Osceola could probably wipe the floor with Rin.
Osceola teaching Rin would be interesting. I want to see that now. x)

I think that was a combo of pulling Rin's hair and pointing the gun at Rin. Rin instinctively jerks away whenever the Armumahel gun is pointed at him, and that's what broke the hold. The only time Yukio could hit Rin with the bullets was after guiding Rin to an area where it was physically impossible to dodge.
Yeah, it's true the gun helped too.

Though whether it's the hair and the gun or a german suplex, none of these techniques are techniques that break holds/grabs, they are techniques that make the other let go of the hold/grab mainly through pain and/or fear and/or becoming incapacitated. Truly breaking a hold/grab usually involve leverage of the other's body parts with some of your own body parts. But that's just semantics, don't mind me.

Ah, the missing pronouns strike again.

Tbh I think it works more strongly if Yukio is trying to attribute all his friends as "Rin's friends & home", as a justification for why Rin needs to kill him. But I agree, he does care about the willingness of his friends to save him, particularly Bon, Shura, and Shiemi.
Oh, sorry, no, not this time. Grammatically, it was clear.

Yukio said "Nii-san (brother) no ('s) sekkaku (finally) dekita (made) taisetsuna (important) ibasho (home) mo (and) tomodachi (friends) mo (too) zenbu (all of them) kietenakunatte (will diseapear) shimau (in the end) kamoshirenai (maybe) nda (because of what was previously mentioned) yo (I'm telling/informing you)"

What I meant is, when someone is talking about someone else, but really they're talking about themselves. You know what I mean?

Yukio somehow thinks he lost his friends and his home. But he finds solace in thinking that they are now Rin's friends and home. And now he seems to be warning Rin to not lose them as well.

Of course Rin isn't in that list. But that is because he views Rin trying to save him as an assertion of his own weakness. These chapters seem to be proving him right. Both Rin and Yukio had defined roles in their family unit. Rin was the protector of the family unit, but also stupid and malfunctioning in society. Yukio was the success story who'd go on to do something, but also weak and needing protection. Yukio broke the social contract when he proved he could walk all over Rin (literally), and that's why Rin keeps repeating how Yukio is actually "strong". Rin's now protecting the family unit by pushing Yukio back in line. So Yukio thinks he's strong now? Bullshit.

The story has deconstructed the whole "declarations of protection" trope. Both twins decided to protect each other, but that's all been shown to be based on their own need for identity in the family unit. Rin embraced his role as the strong one and accepted/internalized his stupidity. Yukio challenged his role as the weak one, and Rin will not accept that. This isn't a loving sib dynamic -- this is a protector-victim dynamic.
I don't disagree with you, except that I don't think there's no love. I think they love each other and that's part of why they want to protect each other. But there's also competition between them. And pretty much everyone, not just those two, want to have a role, to be useful, in a relationship; pretty much no one wants to feel like dead weight. That's something Shiemi struggled with a lot too.

Regarding Yukio, hopefully he will begin to be honest with his want for help after this confrontation. If Toudou's foreshadowing is any indicator (and so far it's been the most reliable one), Yukio will eventually drop the pretense and manipulation. But I doubt it'll be a good thing at first.
Well, I think that prediction already started to happen a few chapters back.

No way that is Demon!Rin at the end. It is probably just regular old Rin acting as his demon self trying to beat some sence into Yukio. I mean, look at the horns and speech bubble.
Good eye. I didn't notice the font change. The eyes look round too.


Also, I just noticed Rin is kneeing Yukio's back while he's on the ground, that's also a banned move in most combat sports, because that's a brutal move.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2020, 09:24:28 PM by chinonamida »

Offline xyzt

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Re: Chapter 123
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2020, 08:46:12 AM »
Demon!Rin is unsurprisingly doing the same telegraphic punches as Rin.

I'm really starting to wish for Rin to take hand-to-hand combat classes.

Yeah, that sounds more useful for Rin than sword classes. He's getting beaten by someone not known to be a specialist in hand-to-hand combat. Osceola could probably wipe the floor with Rin.

Didnt Mephisto say that Yukio was trained in martial arts since he was a child? And even Rin's sword skills aren't that exceptional. Rin has mostly always beaten everyone with the flames and raw power rather than skill. His raw power being such that he has rarely ever relied on skill or strategy letting his friends do the thinking for him.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2020, 08:48:21 AM by xyzt »

Offline gokusdonut

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Re: Chapter 123
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2020, 01:19:30 PM »
Rin was always a street fighter, ever since he was a kid, but damnit if Yukio didn't lay it on him with the martial arts. Let's hope he receives some combat training in the future, because all that raw power means nothing if he can still get his ass kicked by someone without powers.

Offline kirarin

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Re: Chapter 123
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2020, 02:10:13 PM »
would the telomere extraction trgger satan to come back or is it too soon? i got interested when yukio said that part of him seeing something that might result to satan coming back. it's highly unlikely though that this procedure was what yukio pertained. im sensing it to be probably seeing rin live his whole demonic nature completely or another perfect experiment from the labs. but is it possible for satan to possess rin in this state? it's like 2 demons clashing inside a body.

Offline chinonamida

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Re: Chapter 123
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2020, 03:18:42 PM »
Didnt Mephisto say that Yukio was trained in martial arts since he was a child?
Yes. Yukio is good, but he's not a specialist or expert or master of martial arts. They said he trained in martial arts, but, as far as what they showed us, he doesn't seem to spend a lot of time training. He seems to be training his guns skills more than his martial arts. In actual combat too he's using his guns more than anything else. And he got beaten up in hand-to-hand combat by Toudou multiple times.

EDIT:
would the telomere extraction trgger satan to come back or is it too soon? i got interested when yukio said that part of him seeing something that might result to satan coming back. it's highly unlikely though that this procedure was what yukio pertained. im sensing it to be probably seeing rin live his whole demonic nature completely or another perfect experiment from the labs. but is it possible for satan to possess rin in this state? it's like 2 demons clashing inside a body.
I don't know. But it does seem more and more like Rin and Demon Rin are two completely different person, having conversations and fights with one another. But we still don't know if Demon Rin is possessing Rin (or in this case we could call him Human Rin) like a demon can possess a human. Or if both of them are just split personalities of Rin. If it's the latter, then we're mistaken to call the other Rin "Demon Rin", because they'd both be the same half-demon (not one being a demon and the other one being a human). I don't remember anywhere in the manga anyone calling the other Rin "Demon Rin", we're the ones who started calling him that, in the manga they all call him things like "the other Rin" or they say "that's not Rin" and in comparison they call the other one things like "the normal Rin" or they say "Rin is back to normal". I've said it before, but I'll say it again, I think it's likely that it's just a split personality. Rin grew up thinking he was human, when his demon powers awakened, he had a hard time accepting it, and people told him he had to repress it. He's not a human possessed by a demon, he's a half-demon. But in his mind maybe he feels like a human who got possessed. So as a defense mechanism, to preserve his perception of himself as a human, he unconsciously split his personality between a "human self" and a "demon self", because he can't accept he's a half-demon. I think it makes sense.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2020, 06:13:09 PM by chinonamida »

Offline earthforge

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Re: Chapter 123
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2020, 05:05:42 PM »
Ah, the missing pronouns strike again.

Tbh I think it works more strongly if Yukio is trying to attribute all his friends as "Rin's friends & home", as a justification for why Rin needs to kill him. But I agree, he does care about the willingness of his friends to save him, particularly Bon, Shura, and Shiemi.
Oh, sorry, no, not this time. Grammatically, it was clear.

Yukio said "Nii-san (brother) no ('s) sekkaku (finally) dekita (made) taisetsuna (important) ibasho (home) mo (and) tomodachi (friends) mo (too) zenbu (all of them) kietenakunatte (will diseapear) shimau (in the end) kamoshirenai (maybe) nda (because of what was previously mentioned) yo (I'm telling/informing you)"

What I meant is, when someone is talking about someone else, but really they're talking about themselves. You know what I mean?

Yukio somehow thinks he lost his friends and his home. But he finds solace in thinking that they are now Rin's friends and home. And now he seems to be warning Rin to not lose them as well.

Oh, that's good. Thanks for clarifying. I'm glad, since that tracks with what we've seen from the character. Yukio said he lost his place way back in chapter 93.

While Yukio says he is saying this entirely for Rin's benefit, I think he could be concealing that he is jealous of Rin for taking his place & friends. This is a stretch, I acknowledge that.

On page 22, there's a translation I also was uncertain of, the first speech bubble on the second-to-last pane: "Satan's going to kill me and everyone I love". Was that one correct?

Of course Rin isn't in that list. But that is because he views Rin trying to save him as an assertion of his own weakness. These chapters seem to be proving him right. Both Rin and Yukio had defined roles in their family unit. Rin was the protector of the family unit, but also stupid and malfunctioning in society. Yukio was the success story who'd go on to do something, but also weak and needing protection. Yukio broke the social contract when he proved he could walk all over Rin (literally), and that's why Rin keeps repeating how Yukio is actually "strong". Rin's now protecting the family unit by pushing Yukio back in line. So Yukio thinks he's strong now? Bullshit.

The story has deconstructed the whole "declarations of protection" trope. Both twins decided to protect each other, but that's all been shown to be based on their own need for identity in the family unit. Rin embraced his role as the strong one and accepted/internalized his stupidity. Yukio challenged his role as the weak one, and Rin will not accept that. This isn't a loving sib dynamic -- this is a protector-victim dynamic.
I don't disagree with you, except that I don't think there's no love. I think they love each other and that's part of why they want to protect each other. But there's also competition between them. And pretty much everyone, not just those two, want to have a role, to be useful, in a relationship; pretty much no one wants to feel like dead weight. That's something Shiemi struggled with a lot too.

I agree. There is love between them. Right now it's just complicated.

Regarding Yukio, hopefully he will begin to be honest with his want for help after this confrontation. If Toudou's foreshadowing is any indicator (and so far it's been the most reliable one), Yukio will eventually drop the pretense and manipulation. But I doubt it'll be a good thing at first.
Well, I think that prediction already started to happen a few chapters back.

Hopefully. I think it'll only happen after Yukio realizes he doesn't really want to die, he just is sick of being weak.
"There are no answers. Only choices."