Author Topic: Chapter 97 RAW  (Read 26420 times)

Offline earthforge

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Re: Chapter 97 RAW
« Reply #120 on: January 11, 2018, 08:28:11 PM »
is Shima aware that he's collaborating with someone who plans to annihilate the world (guess so)?
We don't know Lucifer's plan yet. We don't know what it would be when two worlds merge.



I know it's not that clear, but since I doubt Lucifer's willing to create a world without a single form of life, I guess what the Illuminati code means is "a single world with neither human or demon but 'creatures' who are both." And I think, since the demon eaters are technically beings which are both things, maybe Lucifer is planning to make them the inhabitants of that world. That's why they're also called the chosen ones?

But Lucy also intends to use the demon eaters as materials for Satan's body.

Although, why would he need a body if he intends to take Rin's?

Oh. Wait. I think Satan has to destroy Rin's demon heart first to make Rin's body vacant. I guess he'd need a body for that, if Yukio's eyes are incapable of channeling enough power to do so.

Although, then what's Lucy's plan? Let Satan destroy everything? Including the concepts? Darn it I get so confused thinking about this.

In all this, methinks Yukio is a Neutral Evil and Shima is a Chaotic Neutral or True Neutral.

Shima doesn't even know the core goals of the Illuminati. Bringing in Yukio was the requirement for him to get a better position in the Illuminati to deliver intel to Mephisto.
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Offline Kittykat

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Re: Chapter 97 RAW
« Reply #121 on: January 11, 2018, 11:31:47 PM »
is Shima aware that he's collaborating with someone who plans to annihilate the world (guess so)?
We don't know Lucifer's plan yet. We don't know what it would be when two worlds merge.



I know it's not that clear, but since I doubt Lucifer's willing to create a world without a single form of life, I guess what the Illuminati code means is "a single world with neither human or demon but 'creatures' who are both." And I think, since the demon eaters are technically beings which are both things, maybe Lucifer is planning to make them the inhabitants of that world. That's why they're also called the chosen ones?

But Lucy also intends to use the demon eaters as materials for Satan's body.

Although, why would he need a body if he intends to take Rin's?

Oh. Wait. I think Satan has to destroy Rin's demon heart first to make Rin's body vacant. I guess he'd need a body for that, if Yukio's eyes are incapable of channeling enough power to do so.

Although, then what's Lucy's plan? Let Satan destroy everything? Including the concepts? Darn it I get so confused thinking about this.

In all this, methinks Yukio is a Neutral Evil and Shima is a Chaotic Neutral or True Neutral.

Shima doesn't even know the core goals of the Illuminati. Bringing in Yukio was the requirement for him to get a better position in the Illuminati to deliver intel to Mephisto.

He wishes to go back to the original concept. That means destruction of humans since humanity is responsible for the concepts gaining consciousness/sentience/awareness, so humans are responsible for their revolving pain. Is that still his goal, or is he appeasing groups with flowery words to get their support? Father/prince/king of lies and all that.

Offline chinonamida

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Re: Chapter 97 RAW
« Reply #122 on: January 12, 2018, 01:23:46 AM »
In all this, methinks Yukio is a Neutral Evil and Shima is a Chaotic Neutral or True Neutral.
Shima is definitely a True Neutral. He's nowhere near Chaotic.

A Chaotic character would be like Amaimon (Chaotic Evil) or Kuro (Chaotic Good).

Yukio was a Loyal Good (when he was a kid), that turned Loyal Neutral (at the start of the manga), that turned Chaotic Neutral (when he started doubting the Order), that now seems to have turned Neutral Evil (when he joined the Illuminati) even though he has yet to do one evil thing. That's of course if you don't count killing demons as evil.

EDIT: Just for fun.

 -Loyal Good-    -Loyal Neutral-    -Loyal Evil-

                                Arthur               Lucifer

-Neutral Good-   -True Neutral-    -Neutral Evil-

      Izumo              Lightning             Toudou
  Konekomaru        Mephisto              Yukio
        Rin                  Renzou
      Ryuuji
      Shiemi
      Shura

-Chaotic Good-  -Chaotic Neutral-  -Chaotic Evil-

        Kuro                                           Amaimon
                                                             Satan
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 02:26:17 AM by chinonamida »

Offline Cloelia

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Re: Chapter 97 RAW
« Reply #123 on: January 12, 2018, 08:54:44 AM »
In my opinion, one of the reason why Yukio considers it's Rin's limit is, if Rin has less kindness and he attacked Yukio more violently or continued the berserk state longer, he can kill Yukio. So Yukio is disappointed because he lose a chance to successfully die

I don't know. Yukio knew Rin would've failed 'cause Satan would've protected him, so I guess it's not like he was expecting Rin would actually succeed. Unless he thought Rin's flames could be more "effective" than bullets, etc.

Offline tandem

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Re: Chapter 97 RAW
« Reply #124 on: January 12, 2018, 04:20:44 PM »
^ Rin's flames should be more effective than bullets. Otherwise there is no point to desire his flame or expect him to save Assiah.

Though that's just one theory to interpret Yukio's meaning. We may get to know more of Yukio's thoughts about Rin in later chapters

Although, why would he need a body if he intends to take Rin's?

Oh. Wait. I think Satan has to destroy Rin's demon heart first to make Rin's body vacant. I guess he'd need a body for that, if Yukio's eyes are incapable of channeling enough power to do so.

Although, then what's Lucy's plan? Let Satan destroy everything? Including the concepts?
Just don't directly assume Satan and Lucifer have the same plan or even belong to the same side. In the chart of V19 Satan is only on his own side.

We also don't know whether Satan plan to destroy everything. He just said he wants to own Assiah.

(My theory about this : Perhaps Lucifer and Samael independent proposed plan to make Satan's perfect vessel, like competing for Daddy's love. Lucifer's plan is to make the vessel from his demonic science research while Samael's plan is to make the vessel from Rin)

He wishes to go back to the original concept. That means destruction of humans since humanity is responsible for the concepts gaining consciousness/sentience/awareness, so humans are responsible for their revolving pain. Is that still his goal, or is he appeasing groups with flowery words to get their support? Father/prince/king of lies and all that.
Lucifer said that just because he couldn't have a healthy body ...

EDIT: Just for fun.

 -Loyal Good-    -Loyal Neutral-    -Loyal Evil-

                                Arthur               Lucifer

-Neutral Good-   -True Neutral-    -Neutral Evil-

      Izumo              Lightning             Toudou
  Konekomaru        Mephisto              Yukio
        Rin                  Renzou
      Ryuuji
      Shiemi
      Shura

-Chaotic Good-  -Chaotic Neutral-  -Chaotic Evil-

        Kuro                                           Amaimon
                                                             Satan
IMO Amaimon hasn't really do anything that we are confirmed it's evil, so I'd rather regard him as Chaotic Neutral. In a sense Yukio is also like Chaotic Neutral now.

On the other hand, is Toudou really loyal to anything? Until his true objective revealed I'd feel him Chaotic Evil.

Also if Lucifer work for his own interest, is he like Loyal Evil? I think Gedoin or Hachiro is more like Loyal Evil.

Offline earthforge

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Re: Chapter 97 RAW
« Reply #125 on: January 12, 2018, 06:20:00 PM »
^ I agree, Yukio looked like he was disappointed that Rin couldn't kill him. That was the limit.

The way Yukio views things, he wants to be dead more than anything. That way he can't hurt anyone, right? (Lol no, the idiot.) But he can't die, so instead of being in the living hell that is his physical and mental weakness, he's chosen to pursue strength at all cost. He removes himself from the people he could hurt, and scares them away so they don't follow him.

Just don't directly assume Satan and Lucifer have the same plan or even belong to the same side. In the chart of V19 Satan is only on his own side.

True. Still, Satan seems to have a simple plan of control and dominate. It's Lucifer that I don't understand. What is stopping him from blowing up the world by killing himself? What is with this "no humans, no demons" thing? Does he honestly believe in leading the world to true peace? I think he legit might.

That means that Yukio's actually more aligned with Satan, who seems ambivalent to Lucifer's goals.

IMO Amaimon hasn't really do anything that we are confirmed it's evil, so I'd rather regard him as Chaotic Neutral. In a sense Yukio is also like Chaotic Neutral now.

On the other hand, is Toudou really loyal to anything? Until his true objective revealed I'd feel him Chaotic Evil.

Also if Lucifer work for his own interest, is he like Loyal Evil? I think Gedoin or Hachiro is more like Loyal Evil.

Amaimon's control of Shiemi in chapter 13 makes him evil IMO.

Chaotics are usually characterized by a value for freedom above all else. Yukio is much more willing to choose a mix of chaotic and lawful acts, as long as he gets what he wants. That's why he's a classic Neutral Evil, the most selfish of all alignments.

Toudou is confusing, honestly. I thought he was chaotic, but his actions are much more consistent with Neutral Evil. He let Lucifer deal with Yukio despite his own personal desire to meet Yukio again, prioritizing the organization over his personal wants. Likewise, despite lecturing Yukio about family constraining him, Saburota has a relative working also in the Illuminati. That indicates that Toudou is flexible about his desires, willing to put them aside for a central goal.

Lucifer appears to believe in his own rhetoric, so yes, Loyal Evil.

Shima is definitely a True Neutral. He's nowhere near Chaotic.

Frig. You're right. I derped.

Yukio was a Loyal Good (when he was a kid), that turned Loyal Neutral (at the start of the manga), that turned Chaotic Neutral (when he started doubting the Order), that now seems to have turned Neutral Evil (when he joined the Illuminati) even though he has yet to do one evil thing. That's of course if you don't count killing demons as evil.

That is a very good point. Yukio has yet to do legit evil things. I don't count him shooting Rin in the head, because Rin has the best regeneration ever and even healed from having his guts smashed open by Amaimon.

It'd be hilarious if Yukio acts like he's evil but blocks the Illuminati from hurting noncombatants and others on his missions. It'd be like, dude, you suck at this whole evil thing.
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Offline chinonamida

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Re: Chapter 97 RAW
« Reply #126 on: January 12, 2018, 07:56:27 PM »
IMO Amaimon hasn't really do anything that we are confirmed it's evil, so I'd rather regard him as Chaotic Neutral. In a sense Yukio is also like Chaotic Neutral now.

On the other hand, is Toudou really loyal to anything? Until his true objective revealed I'd feel him Chaotic Evil.

Also if Lucifer work for his own interest, is he like Loyal Evil? I think Gedoin or Hachiro is more like Loyal Evil.
Amaimon's control of Shiemi in chapter 13 makes him evil IMO.

Chaotics are usually characterized by a value for freedom above all else. Yukio is much more willing to choose a mix of chaotic and lawful acts, as long as he gets what he wants. That's why he's a classic Neutral Evil, the most selfish of all alignments.

Toudou is confusing, honestly. I thought he was chaotic, but his actions are much more consistent with Neutral Evil. He let Lucifer deal with Yukio despite his own personal desire to meet Yukio again, prioritizing the organization over his personal wants. Likewise, despite lecturing Yukio about family constraining him, Saburota has a relative working also in the Illuminati. That indicates that Toudou is flexible about his desires, willing to put them aside for a central goal.

Lucifer appears to believe in his own rhetoric, so yes, Loyal Evil.
Earthforge pretty much said everything already. But I'll add a few things.

Regarding Amaimon, not only his control of Shiemi, but also his attempt to pluck her eye balls out.

Lucifer might seem like he's doing what he wants since he's at the head of his own organization, but he's bound as anyone else inside the organization by the rules of that organization, maybe even more so than anyone else. Also he seems very loyal to Satan, so you can also count that.

Damn, got to go.

EDIT: Yeah, forget about my last point on Lucifer. Satan is just one guy, so no matter how loyal he is to him, that doesn't count. But I still stand by my point on organization leaders. Leaders have to follow rules more than anyone else.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 11:37:19 PM by chinonamida »

Offline tandem

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Re: Chapter 97 RAW
« Reply #127 on: January 13, 2018, 05:18:05 AM »
Just don't directly assume Satan and Lucifer have the same plan or even belong to the same side. In the chart of V19 Satan is only on his own side.

True. Still, Satan seems to have a simple plan of control and dominate. It's Lucifer that I don't understand. What is stopping him from blowing up the world by killing himself? What is with this "no humans, no demons" thing? Does he honestly believe in leading the world to true peace?
In my experience, whenever someone said something vague enough or too good to be true, it just means there are more trick in it. Those sounds like empty beautiful words, and usually one has to use empty beautiful words because all other details are ugly.

World peace simply means there is no conflict now. Therefore, whoever wins at the end is a kind of world peace because all other people have to follow the final leader (or all other people become too weak to disobey). The mysterious no human / no demon can have many kind of abstract meaning, for example you don't bother to distinguish who is human or demon because you all have to obey me and I'll judge who is allowed to do what or who should be killed no matter you are human or demon.

(The suicide declaration was just for displaying determination in order to threat others. I mean, when he seriously wants to die he doesn't have to tell others in advance)

Toudou is confusing, honestly. I thought he was chaotic, but his actions are much more consistent with Neutral Evil. He let Lucifer deal with Yukio despite his own personal desire to meet Yukio again, prioritizing the organization over his personal wants. Likewise, despite lecturing Yukio about family constraining him, Saburota has a relative working also in the Illuminati. That indicates that Toudou is flexible about his desires, willing to put them aside for a central goal.
Perhaps he can't capture Yukio by himself (that's what happened in IK arc) so he told Lucifer for his own benefit. Besides congratulating Lucifer, the only thing he did for the Illuminati we have seen so far is to help transport Hachiro (after Shima finished the more difficult part), unlike the other Toudou who apparently leads a group of people and joins the meeting. Until now we almost don't have any evidence whether he is loyal to Illuminati or using Illuminati. So I still regard him chaotic at this point.

It'd be hilarious if Yukio acts like he's evil but blocks the Illuminati from hurting noncombatants and others on his missions. It'd be like, dude, you suck at this whole evil thing.
Yes, so I'll wait until that moment to judge whether Yukio actually turns evil

Earthforge pretty much said everything already. But I'll add a few things.

Regarding Amaimon, not only his control of Shiemi, but also his attempt to pluck her eye balls out.

Lucifer might seem like he's doing what he wants since he's at the head of his own organization, but he's bound as anyone else inside the organization by the rules of that organization, maybe even more so than anyone else. Also he seems very loyal to Satan, so you can also count that.

Damn, got to go.

EDIT: Yeah, forget about my last point on Lucifer. Satan is just one guy, so no matter how loyal he is to him, that doesn't count. But I still stand by my point on organization leaders. Leaders have to follow rules more than anyone else.
We don't really have many clues about how Illuminati conduct their rules. Lucifer killed Gedoin, but only after Gedoin failed in fighting and conveniently be brought back, which means it was no where near his top priority, otherwise he should kill him before leaving. Whether Lucifer himself bound to any discipline is also unclear. That's much different from Hachiro, who clearly has a fixed mindset about contract and promise.

I assume all Amaimon said in camp arc is to provoke Rin since Mephisto doesn't allow him to hurt them. He did release Shiemi immediately. Seems like Amaimon doesn't see human as valuable as we do but that's kind of understandable.

I think the exwires are only put to Neutral Good because the current jailbreak? They don't seem ever do other disloyal thing. I would say Koneko can still be counted as Loyal Good because I believe he is just loyal to Bon.

BTW, how can we classify Shiro? Or we just don't have enough information yet?
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 06:08:41 AM by tandem »

Offline chinonamida

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Re: Chapter 97 RAW
« Reply #128 on: January 13, 2018, 08:22:54 AM »
Toudou is confusing, honestly. I thought he was chaotic, but his actions are much more consistent with Neutral Evil. He let Lucifer deal with Yukio despite his own personal desire to meet Yukio again, prioritizing the organization over his personal wants. Likewise, despite lecturing Yukio about family constraining him, Saburota has a relative working also in the Illuminati. That indicates that Toudou is flexible about his desires, willing to put them aside for a central goal.
Perhaps he can't capture Yukio by himself (that's what happened in IK arc) so he told Lucifer for his own benefit. Besides congratulating Lucifer, the only thing he did for the Illuminati we have seen so far is to help transport Hachiro (after Shima finished the more difficult part), unlike the other Toudou who apparently leads a group of people and joins the meeting. Until now we almost don't have any evidence whether he is loyal to Illuminati or using Illuminati. So I still regard him chaotic at this point.
What you describe sounds like Neutral to me.

Someone who wholeheartedly joins an organization is Loyal, someone who joins an organization to use it for their own benefit is Neutral, and someone who's Chaotic doesn't join the organization at all unless forced to.

It'd be hilarious if Yukio acts like he's evil but blocks the Illuminati from hurting noncombatants and others on his missions. It'd be like, dude, you suck at this whole evil thing.
By the way, this made me laugh so hard. That's something I'm anticipating. But the comedy of it only hit me when I read you say it.

(EDIT: Actually, the fact he said he's now evil for joining the Illuminati might confirm that he's Good instead of confirming that he's now Evil. In other words, instead of Yukio meaning "I'm evil. I want or at least don't mind doing evil things. That's why I want or at least don't mind joining the Illuminati to achieve my goals", Yukio could mean "I need to join the Illuminati to achieve my goals. And as much as I don't like how evil it is, I can't deny joining it makes me evil by association". It's not like a Good character never does bad things, but when they do they feel bad about it. It's just that now he might be about to do an awful lot of bad things and feel awfully bad about it... So that would change my theory on Yukio to him going from Loyal Good to Chaotic Good to Neutral Good, while feeling increasingly bad about himself for the increasing amount of bad things he's doing. I guess we'll know the answer when we see whether he has remorse or not about the evil things he's going to do. Though we already know he used to have remorse about even the everyday slightly bad things he would do. So it all depends on how much he has changed recently.)

Lucifer might seem like he's doing what he wants since he's at the head of his own organization, but he's bound as anyone else inside the organization by the rules of that organization, maybe even more so than anyone else. Also he seems very loyal to Satan, so you can also count that.

EDIT: Yeah, forget about my last point on Lucifer. Satan is just one guy, so no matter how loyal he is to him, that doesn't count. But I still stand by my point on organization leaders. Leaders have to follow rules more than anyone else.
We don't really have many clues about how Illuminati conduct their rules. Lucifer killed Gedoin, but only after Gedoin failed in fighting and conveniently be brought back, which means it was no where near his top priority, otherwise he should kill him before leaving. Whether Lucifer himself bound to any discipline is also unclear. That's much different from Hachiro, who clearly has a fixed mindset about contract and promise.
It's true we don't know a lot about the inner workings of the Illuminaty. But huge organizations only works under heavy rules and discipline. Lucifer is at the very top of it, and he's not a shadow figure, he's a visible one. If he would break his own organization's rules, that wouldn't be a good image for his followers. So far he also seems like someone who doesn't lie, so I don't think he's breaking the rules behind people's back.

For Hachirou, from what we've seen, and like you said, he might seems like a Loyal Evil. But we haven't seen him act with enough people, and we haven't seen him confronted with societal or organizational rules. A guy living alone in the middle of the woods could be Loyal or Chaotic and we would never be able to tell. His relations to Shura and her ancestors are an isolated case, so we can't use that and say that's how he would act with others in society. Maybe Shura and her ancestors and descendants are the only ones he would ever be loyal to, while killing anyone else who crosses his path, which would pretty much make him Chaotic.

I assume all Amaimon said in camp arc is to provoke Rin since Mephisto doesn't allow him to hurt them. He did release Shiemi immediately. Seems like Amaimon doesn't see human as valuable as we do but that's kind of understandable.
When you want to kill or hurt people for fun and don't value their lives because they're just mortals who will die soon enough anyway, but in the end you don't do it only because someone else told you not to, that still makes you evil.

You're not helping your case here.

I must admit though, you had my attention at "it was just to provoke Rin". And I'll give you it's somewhat hard to tell with his lack of expressions. But I doubt he didn't mean what he said and did.

I think the exwires are only put to Neutral Good because the current jailbreak? They don't seem ever do other disloyal thing. I would say Koneko can still be counted as Loyal Good because I believe he is just loyal to Bon.
They're already at their second jail break.

A Neutral Good always put good actions over law and I have no doubt that's the type of people Rin and the others are. That's the type most "heros" are.

As for Koneko being loyal to Ryuuji, again Ryuuji is just one guy.

And in case anyone wants to say Koneko is Loyal to the Myoudha, remember him and Ryuuji and Renzou ran away from it to go become exorcists. It's not like they're completely disloyal to the Myoudha, but they're not completely loyal neither; they're loyal when it benefits them and when they think it's the right thing to do. That's what makes them Neutral.

BTW, how can we classify Shiro? Or we just don't have enough information yet?
Yeah, it could change as we learn more on him.

For now I'd say he was a True Neutral in the flashbacks, that turned Neutral Good somewhere along the way to make the guy we saw at the start of the manga.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 09:22:55 AM by chinonamida »

Offline tandem

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Re: Chapter 97 RAW
« Reply #129 on: January 14, 2018, 06:33:20 AM »
Toudou is confusing, honestly. I thought he was chaotic, but his actions are much more consistent with Neutral Evil. He let Lucifer deal with Yukio despite his own personal desire to meet Yukio again, prioritizing the organization over his personal wants. Likewise, despite lecturing Yukio about family constraining him, Saburota has a relative working also in the Illuminati. That indicates that Toudou is flexible about his desires, willing to put them aside for a central goal.
Perhaps he can't capture Yukio by himself (that's what happened in IK arc) so he told Lucifer for his own benefit. Besides congratulating Lucifer, the only thing he did for the Illuminati we have seen so far is to help transport Hachiro (after Shima finished the more difficult part), unlike the other Toudou who apparently leads a group of people and joins the meeting. Until now we almost don't have any evidence whether he is loyal to Illuminati or using Illuminati. So I still regard him chaotic at this point.
What you describe sounds like Neutral to me.

Someone who wholeheartedly joins an organization is Loyal, someone who joins an organization to use it for their own benefit is Neutral, and someone who's Chaotic doesn't join the organization at all unless forced to.
But there is also his speech about how he once wanted to be like his father/brother but turns into hating them and becomes completely free. Also he randomly attacked Yukio when they meet in the middle of IK arc, and then tried to kill all of Juzou's team members because they are "useless and not interesting". Finally he said he can kill those Hachiro-searching team in chapter 80. There are some random madness in his action. Until now we don't know whether he has any second thoughts about Lucifer's "I'll use you if the material isn't enough". If he's OK with that then maybe he's just becoming demon eater for fun and doesn't really care about his own fate, so that's why I feel him like Chaotic.

It's pretty vague and I think that's also because we don't know enough about Illuminati.

Lucifer is at the very top of it, and he's not a shadow figure, he's a visible one. If he would break his own organization's rules, that wouldn't be a good image for his followers. So far he also seems like someone who doesn't lie, so I don't think he's breaking the rules behind people's back.
(Looking at Mephisto who is also a higher-up of a huge organization...)

About Lucifer seems doesn't lie, I would like to take Tamamo for example. I'm pretty sure Lucifer knows Tamamo's condition, but he said something like "Why do we have to suffer?" as if he can't stand people suffering.

I assume all Amaimon said in camp arc is to provoke Rin since Mephisto doesn't allow him to hurt them. He did release Shiemi immediately. Seems like Amaimon doesn't see human as valuable as we do but that's kind of understandable.
When you want to kill or hurt people for fun and don't value their lives because they're just mortals who will die soon enough anyway, but in the end you don't do it only because someone else told you not to, that still makes you evil.

You're not helping your case here.

I must admit though, you had my attention at "it was just to provoke Rin". And I'll give you it's somewhat hard to tell with his lack of expressions. But I doubt he didn't mean what he said and did.
Amaimon asked Rin "Isn't she important to you?" but Rin still didn't draw the sword, then Amaimon was like "OK then she is useless" and started saying that collecting eyeball thing. IMO that's already contradicting his previous "make her my bride" thing. And a simple explanation is all his action is to provoke Rin, and he just randomly said what ever evil ideas he came up with. If he intended to hurt them I think some of them would already severely injured.

If a human doesn't take human's life serious then that's evil, but he's a demon so I'm not so sure about it. He is not good either so I feel like he's Neutral. It looks like Amaimon somewhat similar to Gedoin that they both treat human like animals, despite Gedoin is actually a human and he already killed a lot.

in case anyone wants to say Koneko is Loyal to the Myoudha, remember him and Ryuuji and Renzou ran away from it to go become exorcists. It's not like they're completely disloyal to the Myoudha, but they're not completely loyal neither
I think their main mission is to protect Bon, so when they can't stop Bon, going to Tokyo with him is the correct action the Myoudha wants them to do. Only Bon is scolded for this action, while Yazou actually praised Koneko.

On the other hand, I wonder if Koneko has his own reason to become exorcist besides accompany with Bon


Her art that she posts gives us clues, so why not this. /shrug

This Yukio card has a demon motif going on. This is still an exorcist card, but it has the coloring of the major opponents
I just notice a subtle difference between the original card

https://twitter.com/katohhhhhh/status/680982280299360256

and the special card with horn

https://twitter.com/katohhhhhh/status/761589454058381312

Do you guys think both Rin and Yukio looks happier in the special card?

Offline chinonamida

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Re: Chapter 97 RAW
« Reply #130 on: January 14, 2018, 08:38:05 AM »
What you describe sounds like Neutral to me.

Someone who wholeheartedly joins an organization is Loyal, someone who joins an organization to use it for their own benefit is Neutral, and someone who's Chaotic doesn't join the organization at all unless forced to.

But there is also his speech about how he once wanted to be like his father/brother but turns into hating them and becomes completely free. Also he randomly attacked Yukio when they meet in the middle of IK arc, and then tried to kill all of Juzou's team members because they are "useless and not interesting". Finally he said he can kill those Hachiro-searching team in chapter 80. There are some random madness in his action. Until now we don't know whether he has any second thoughts about Lucifer's "I'll use you if the material isn't enough". If he's OK with that then maybe he's just becoming demon eater for fun and doesn't really care about his own fate, so that's why I feel him like Chaotic.

It's pretty vague and I think that's also because we don't know enough about Illuminati.

The problem is, he has no problem following rules when he needs to. Not only now in the Illuminati, but also before in the Order.

Chaotic characters never choose to follow the rules. They only follow rules when they're forced to or when what they're doing already happens to go along with the rules.

When you sometimes act Chaotic and sometimes act Loyal depending on what's more beneficial for you, that makes you Neutral.

Though I agree he enjoys being Chaotic more.

Lucifer is at the very top of it, and he's not a shadow figure, he's a visible one. If he would break his own organization's rules, that wouldn't be a good image for his followers. So far he also seems like someone who doesn't lie, so I don't think he's breaking the rules behind people's back.

(Looking at Mephisto who is also a higher-up of a huge organization...)

Mephisto is not at the top of the organization he's in, which makes a big difference. Plus, Mephisto has no qualms about lying and doing things behind people's back.

Also you were arguing for Lucifer being Chaotic. If you had said Neutral like I said Mephisto was, maybe I wouldn't have argued. But you said Chaotic, which is impossible imo.

About Lucifer seems doesn't lie, I would like to take Tamamo for example. I'm pretty sure Lucifer knows Tamamo's condition, but he said something like "Why do we have to suffer?" as if he can't stand people suffering.
I'm not 100% sure what you're saying, but...

I don't think there's contradiction between what he thinks and what he says. But there can be contradictions between what he thinks/says and what he does or lets happen. Which wouldn't make him a liar, but an hypocrite. Anyway.

Amaimon asked Rin "Isn't she important to you?" but Rin still didn't draw the sword, then Amaimon was like "OK then she is useless" and started saying that collecting eyeball thing. IMO that's already contradicting his previous "make her my bride" thing. And a simple explanation is all his action is to provoke Rin, and he just randomly said what ever evil ideas he came up with. If he intended to hurt them I think some of them would already severely injured.

Alright, I'll give you that. I can't know for sure whether it was only provocation or things he would do if he could.

If a human doesn't take human's life serious then that's evil, but he's a demon so I'm not so sure about it. He is not good either so I feel like he's Neutral. It looks like Amaimon somewhat similar to Gedoin that they both treat human like animals, despite Gedoin is actually a human and he already killed a lot.

Humans are animals.

Also, I say it's evil for humans to not value other animals lives and make them suffer more than necessary, so I'd say it's evil for demons do the same to humans. But maybe that's just me.

in case anyone wants to say Koneko is Loyal to the Myoudha, remember him and Ryuuji and Renzou ran away from it to go become exorcists. It's not like they're completely disloyal to the Myoudha, but they're not completely loyal neither

I think their main mission is to protect Bon, so when they can't stop Bon, going to Tokyo with him is the correct action the Myoudha wants them to do. Only Bon is scolded for this action, while Yazou actually praised Koneko.

On the other hand, I wonder if Koneko has his own reason to become exorcist besides accompany with Bon

Ok, I'll give you that one too. To be honest I don't pay much attention to Koneko, so I'm sure I missed a few things concerning him, including Yaozou praising him like you said. Maybe Koneko really is Loyal Good.

And that would be one more reason that explains why I dislike him actually.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 08:40:03 AM by chinonamida »

Offline tandem

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Re: Chapter 97 RAW
« Reply #131 on: January 14, 2018, 03:54:37 PM »
Also you were arguing for Lucifer being Chaotic.
I do think Lucifer is Neutral Evil. I don't believe he strictly follows some rules, but he doesn't seem act on impulse either, unlike Toudou. Or maybe that's because I don't see enough evidence whether Lucifer is Loyal or Chaotic, I tend to classify Lucifer as Neutral at this stage. Hopefully we can see how Illuminati working soon.

If a human doesn't take human's life serious then that's evil, but he's a demon so I'm not so sure about it. He is not good either so I feel like he's Neutral. It looks like Amaimon somewhat similar to Gedoin that they both treat human like animals, despite Gedoin is actually a human and he already killed a lot.

Humans are animals.

Also, I say it's evil for humans to not value other animals lives and make them suffer more than necessary, so I'd say it's evil for demons do the same to humans.
Yes, but until now I still feel Amaimon is more like those normal lab researchers who don't really do unnecessary killing. Though I think there's one thing I forget in my previous post about Gedoin that he actually hates human. So what he did was much more evil than Amaimon, who just feels indifference about human.

Anyway, with the reveal in this chapter we may soon know the true intention of Amaimon and Mephisto

Maybe Koneko really is Loyal Good.

And that would be one more reason that explains why I dislike him actually.
Actually I don't really mean it's anything good that Koneko is more Loyal. I agree with you that Neutral Good is the type most "heros" are. And I'm not sure if Koneko ever walked out of his own "side character" self image
« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 03:57:03 PM by tandem »

Offline chinonamida

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Re: Chapter 97 RAW
« Reply #132 on: January 14, 2018, 06:34:14 PM »
Also you were arguing for Lucifer being Chaotic.
I do think Lucifer is Neutral Evil.
You do? Sorry, I must have mixed it up in my head with what you said about Toudou.

For now I still believe he's more Loyal, but I might be proven wrong eventually.

I still feel Amaimon is more like those normal lab researchers who don't really do unnecessary killing.
He's not researching much though. He just seems to be killing time.

Actually I don't really mean it's anything good that Koneko is more Loyal.
Yeah, it's alright, I never said you did.

Offline earthforge

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Re: Chapter 97 RAW
« Reply #133 on: January 14, 2018, 10:54:17 PM »
Speaking of something that we haven't talked about since the shit hit the fan... I wonder when Lightning's coming back?

After all, he got arrested and went "I hope nothing unexpected happens". Aaaaaand then literally everything went to crap.
  • There was a failed assassination attempt on Mephisto's life.
  • The Gehenna Gate has opened and partially merged with Assiah.
  • The public is learning the existence of demons.
  • Koumaken was broken, returning Rin's demon heart to his chest, possibly making him uncontrollable.
  • Yukio betrayed the Order and his friends, and defected to the Illuminati.
  • Satan was revealed to be watching Assiah through Yukio's left eye.

Wonder what Lightning will have to say about all this. And what his deal with Renzou was. I definitely think the Sylph Bell is off Renzou's neck. But what did Renzou agree to do for it...

Also you were arguing for Lucifer being Chaotic.
I do think Lucifer is Neutral Evil.
You do? Sorry, I must have mixed it up in my head with what you said about Toudou.

For now I still believe he's more Loyal, but I might be proven wrong eventually.

I'm sure that Lucifer is Lawful on the Lawful-Neutral-Chaotic axis. Unlike Yukio and Saburota who are willing to bend rules to achieve their goals, Lucy is insistent on enforcing the rules of his organization, which is consistent with his bizarre sense of fairness. Remember, he said "my subordinates' faults are my faults, there is no need to blame yourself" before he personally executed Gedouin. He didn't have to do that and it put his body at risk, but he did it anyways. If he only cared for his hide, he would've let Homare take care of it. Methinks that attitude is what inspires loyalty in his subordinates. Because Lucifer is so idealistic, his loyal subordinates are willing to take on uglier responsibilities so he doesn't dirty his hands. At least, that's what I got from how Gedouin, Saburota, and Homare deal with Lucy.
"There are no answers. Only choices."

Offline tandem

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Re: Chapter 97 RAW
« Reply #134 on: January 15, 2018, 04:03:25 PM »
I wonder when Lightning's coming back?

After all, he got arrested and went "I hope nothing unexpected happens". Aaaaaand then literally everything went to crap.
  • There was a failed assassination attempt on Mephisto's life.
  • The Gehenna Gate has opened and partially merged with Assiah.
  • The public is learning the existence of demons.
  • Koumaken was broken, returning Rin's demon heart to his chest, possibly making him uncontrollable.
  • Yukio betrayed the Order and his friends, and defected to the Illuminati.
  • Satan was revealed to be watching Assiah through Yukio's left eye.

Wonder what Lightning will have to say about all this. And what his deal with Renzou was.
This beyond/end of snow arc starts with Lightning taking action, so I bet at the end of this arc we'll see Lightning and his action again. And I just remember Lightning is curious about Kurikara but he can't research it now. Maybe he'll help them repair it.