Poll

After chapter 48, I believe Shima is...

a spy for the Illuminati
35 (60.3%)
working for someone else
14 (24.1%)
possessed/controled by something
5 (8.6%)
neither (please explain)
4 (6.9%)

Total Members Voted: 57

Author Topic: Shima - spy or lie?  (Read 69785 times)

Offline NeeNee

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Shima - spy or lie?
« on: August 05, 2013, 05:56:23 AM »
Chapter 48 dropped quite the bombshell. So, let's have a poll to see where everyone stands.

Do you believe Shima is really a spy for the Illuminati? Was he simply possessed? Is he secretly working for another organisation? Or is there some sort of other explanation we haven't thought of yet?

Hopefully, the question will get answered by next month...

Offline earthforge

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Re: Shima - spy or lie?
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2013, 06:45:10 AM »
I think he is a Mole embedded in the Order by the Illuminati. But I don't know when, how or why.

It's not like Renzou has ever had strong convictions about sides in a conflict. He is the least loyal of the cram students. He has always been wishy-washy on his views. Heck, that is why he accepted Rin faster than Koneko. The only time he expressed strong anger was in his argument with Koneko. Koneko, like the rest of Myoudha, believe that everyone must do whatever they can to save Myoudha, even if it means sacrificing your own life. Renzou can't stand this. I think it's because of residual hatred towards Takezou, specifically what Takezou represented. In his opinion, Takezou must've been a fool because he died trying to save someone else. In Renzou's words, "if we die then there's no going back".

So why does Renzou work for the Illuminati? Does he believe in their ideology? Is he being coerced? Or maybe he just let himself get roped in? The central reason could be anything from money to for the lulz. It's frustrating, because nobody saw this coming.

Regarding possession: I don't think Renzou's strength is unprecedented. Renzou has always been agile and strong, useful traits for a Knight. As for his anti-demon power, I think Renzou was never forced to use that power before. Previously he relied on others to do most of the work. In the situation with Izumo, Renzou had to take quick action to disarm Takara and secure Izumo. Thus I think Renzou is not possessed, nor was he necessarily trained with additional skills.
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Offline Anya

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Re: Shima - spy or lie?
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2013, 07:08:14 AM »
For now I chose 'working for someone else'. Working for Illuminati would be grave and shocking accusation so I think it needs to be confirmed.

Offline NeeNee

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Re: Shima - spy or lie?
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2013, 07:12:25 AM »
Regarding possession: I don't think Renzou's strength is unprecedented. Renzou has always been agile and strong, useful traits for a Knight. As for his anti-demon power, I think Renzou was never forced to use that power before. Previously he relied on others to do most of the work. In the situation with Izumo, Renzou had to take quick action to disarm Takara and secure Izumo. Thus I think Renzou is not possessed, nor was he necessarily trained with additional skills.

There's being agile and strong, and then there's jumping five metres high with a girl on your arm.

(click to show/hide)

And again.

(click to show/hide)

He's jumping up two floors, without any effort, still with a girl on his arm. The other students can't do that. Yukio can't do that. The only ones we've seen do it so far are Arthur, Shura, and demons.

If this is indeed 'normal' Shima, it means he's an exorcist of high rank. Even with talent, you don't learn to move like that just by doing it a few times. Either he must have trained for it, or his movements just aren't natural.

... Okay, I guess 'not natural' could also mean he's using a demon to boost his skill, like the Death Eaters do. That would explain it... but I refuse to believe it's just simple teenage agility, because it doesn't match what we've seen of the other characters so far.

Offline evenwiththerain

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Re: Shima - spy or lie?
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2013, 01:53:57 PM »
I think he is a Mole embedded in the Order by the Illuminati. But I don't know when, how or why.

It's not like Renzou has ever had strong convictions about sides in a conflict. He is the least loyal of the cram students. He has always been wishy-washy on his views. Heck, that is why he accepted Rin faster than Koneko. The only time he expressed strong anger was in his argument with Koneko. Koneko, like the rest of Myoudha, believe that everyone must do whatever they can to save Myoudha, even if it means sacrificing your own life. Renzou can't stand this. I think it's because of residual hatred towards Takezou, specifically what Takezou represented. In his opinion, Takezou must've been a fool because he died trying to save someone else. In Renzou's words, "if we die then there's no going back".

So why does Renzou work for the Illuminati? Does he believe in their ideology? Is he being coerced? Or maybe he just let himself get roped in? The central reason could be anything from money to for the lulz. It's frustrating, because nobody saw this coming.

Regarding possession: I don't think Renzou's strength is unprecedented. Renzou has always been agile and strong, useful traits for a Knight. As for his anti-demon power, I think Renzou was never forced to use that power before. Previously he relied on others to do most of the work. In the situation with Izumo, Renzou had to take quick action to disarm Takara and secure Izumo. Thus I think Renzou is not possessed, nor was he necessarily trained with additional skills.

you've put into words what im thinking Shima really is, he always had this selfish thing going on with him in regards of fighting, and preferred to run away. I just never put a lot of thought into it up until now.
shima never found himself having to really use that power of his, but against takara, he had no choice but to fight in order to secure izumo was in his hands, that is why, perhaps, we see him using this power.

Offline Wikkelsoee

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Re: Shima - spy or lie?
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2013, 02:08:42 PM »
He's jumping up two floors, without any effort, still with a girl on his arm. The other students can't do that. Yukio can't do that. The only ones we've seen do it so far are Arthur, Shura, and demons.

Well, it could just be the typical shounen effect where everyone can do inhuman stuff like jumping high or destroying walls.
But I agree. It seems suspicious.

Offline Desktop Warrior

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Re: Shima - spy or lie?
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2013, 04:02:47 PM »
Quote
I think he is a Mole embedded in the Order by the Illuminati. But I don't know when, how or why.

This, essentially. But right now, we have absolutely nothing that would explain it - makes sense, given we've just seen The Reveal.

Quote
It's not like Renzou has ever had strong convictions about sides in a conflict. He is the least loyal of the cram students. He has always been wishy-washy on his views. Heck, that is why he accepted Rin faster than Koneko. The only time he expressed strong anger was in his argument with Koneko. Koneko, like the rest of Myoudha, believe that everyone must do whatever they can to save Myoudha, even if it means sacrificing your own life. Renzou can't stand this. I think it's because of residual hatred towards Takezou, specifically what Takezou represented. In his opinion, Takezou must've been a fool because he died trying to save someone else. In Renzou's words, "if we die then there's no going back".

And that's what makes him going over to the Illuminati highly unusual without further info. I think all those personality traits of his are the real thing. He wouldn't just choose one side over the other when he could keep out of the way as much as possible - his life is just as much at risk on one side as on the other.

Quote
So why does Renzou work for the Illuminati? Does he believe in their ideology? Is he being coerced? Or maybe he just let himself get roped in? The central reason could be anything from money to for the lulz. It's frustrating, because nobody saw this coming.

Maybe money could be an issue. Renzou seems like the type to enjoy a luxurious lifestyle, especially since he must've lived most of his childhood in poverty as part of the ailing Myou Dha. However, I can't see him working for the Illuminati without being bullied into it. Either they have something on him or are threatening a loved one. I think that Renzou is a truly good person at heart and is only doing what he thinks he can.

Offline earthforge

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Re: Shima - spy or lie?
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2013, 04:26:38 PM »
Have read the translation. Judging from Izumo's reaction to Yamantaka, I think it's a safe bet that Renzou was taught to control this demon by the Illuminati. If it's not known to be affiliated with the branch, either the whole family is working for the Illuminati and taught Renzou at a young age OR Renzou learned recently from the Illuminati. The first is not impossible, as the deity is connected with Buddhism (see Yamantaka on wikipedia).

As for Renzou's agility, maybe Yamantaka is helping him?

Wait a sec. If the Illuminati is all about eating demons, which kills them from what we saw of Karura, why is Renzou using a demon via a contract?

So confuzzled.
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Offline NeeNee

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Re: Shima - spy or lie?
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2013, 11:59:42 PM »
Where does it say he's using a contract?

Offline MetallicArcher

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Re: Shima - spy or lie?
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2013, 12:25:54 AM »

Wait a sec. If the Illuminati is all about eating demons, which kills them from what we saw of Karura, why is Renzou using a demon via a contract?

So confuzzled.

Actually, it makes sense and maybe even Shima helped them develop the demon eaters judging that Yamanka's deal works by giving you power in exchange of harming your body, just like it happens to the demon eaters whose bodies degrade if the demon they try to force to give them power is too much for them.

Fuck, now I think the whole Shima clan may be involved seen how Yamanka belongs to the Myo (read Viz translation) which would suck for the Suguro family since it was the Shima head the one who was entrusted ot investigate.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 12:42:43 AM by HeavenlyArcher »

Offline evenwiththerain

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Re: Shima - spy or lie?
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2013, 03:58:25 AM »
Fuck, now I think the whole Shima clan may be involved seen how Yamanka belongs to the Myo (read Viz translation) which would suck for the Suguro family since it was the Shima head the one who was entrusted ot investigate.

Yeah i was thinking about that, the shima clan was entrusted to investigate, imagine if they were indeed involved with the illuminati?! but im hoping its just a Renzou thing, because I would feel like I got backstabbed multiple times

Offline MetallicArcher

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Re: Shima - spy or lie?
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2013, 04:03:02 AM »
Yeah, I would really prefer if it were a Renzou thing 8aka, I love angst among family members imagine how broken his family get, plus, if the whole Shima family is involved, that would be too cruel with Mamushi).

Offline NeeNee

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Re: Shima - spy or lie?
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2013, 11:47:29 PM »
Fuck, now I think the whole Shima clan may be involved seen how Yamanka belongs to the Myo (read Viz translation) which would suck for the Suguro family since it was the Shima head the one who was entrusted ot investigate.

Wait, so Chino's translation was wrong?

Or is Viz wrong?

Izumo: Yamantaka!!? That’s not an upper rank demon of the myouou class [whatever that means]!! Since when are you able to use such a high ranked demon!?

Offline Desktop Warrior

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Re: Shima - spy or lie?
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2013, 12:05:02 AM »
In Japanese, Izumo thinks, "Myouou Darani no joukyuu akuma janai...!" Literally, it means, "It's not an upper-class Myouou Dharani demon...!" However, the context suggests she says it more like a question, more like, "It can't be an upper-class Myou Dha demon...can it!?" It might be a Japanese thing.

Offline NeeNee

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Re: Shima - spy or lie?
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2013, 01:18:58 AM »
^ I see. That doesn't help us, then.

I wonder if it is possible to possess/mind-control someone and then make them summon demons they wouldn't normally be able to summon? Because in that case, Shima could have been under influence from the start.