Author Topic: Chapter 93 Raws  (Read 24484 times)

Offline facets-and-rainbows

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Re: Chapter 93 Raws
« Reply #135 on: November 23, 2017, 05:28:09 AM »
It makes me wonder how Rin's demon heart was born too. Say perhaps Rin's demon heart (I imagine a ball of blue fire core or something) was born from a piece of Satan's flame splitting off and effectively creating its own independent core. Whereas maybe in Yukio's case it did not fully split off and stayed in 'Satan's domain'...with his eye being linked somehow. That might somewhat uphold Shiro's line of 'the flames rejecting him at birth' (or maybe the whole line was a lie). And perhaps there's still a part 'reserved' for Yukio that has the potential to split off. I dunno. It's all conjecture.

That was always my headcanon for how Rin got his Satan traits without doing any completely unreasonable genetics. Make a human the normal human way, then make a demon heart whatever way you make those, then just combine them. No messy worrying about whether Satan even has DNA and so on. So Rin's basically a human permanently possessed by a little independent piece of Satan. Or a demon fused to a human body, depending on how you look at it.

I never thought of that piece with Yukio, though, and it fits so well! Maybe Yukio wasn't able to contain all the fire so most of it got reabsorbed by Satan or something? Maybe just his eyes are really durable, lol (or the reason he's always needed glasses is because absorbing all that power was hard on his eyes?)

Offline SKL

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Re: Chapter 93 Raws
« Reply #136 on: November 23, 2017, 07:40:06 AM »
It makes me wonder how Rin's demon heart was born too. Say perhaps Rin's demon heart (I imagine a ball of blue fire core or something) was born from a piece of Satan's flame splitting off and effectively creating its own independent core. Whereas maybe in Yukio's case it did not fully split off and stayed in 'Satan's domain'...with his eye being linked somehow. That might somewhat uphold Shiro's line of 'the flames rejecting him at birth' (or maybe the whole line was a lie). And perhaps there's still a part 'reserved' for Yukio that has the potential to split off. I dunno. It's all conjecture.


That was always my headcanon for how Rin got his Satan traits without doing any completely unreasonable genetics. Make a human the normal human way, then make a demon heart whatever way you make those, then just combine them. No messy worrying about whether Satan even has DNA and so on. So Rin's basically a human permanently possessed by a little independent piece of Satan. Or a demon fused to a human body, depending on how you look at it.

Me too. I always get a brain scramble when I try to reconcile demon 'genes'. Especially since I work in a genetics. I think in this theory, the key to connecting the human procreation to the demon heart procreation is establishing the link between the two to create the offspring. To do that the demon parent must be possessing an Assiah vessel, Thus creating an inheritable link between that demon type to that body type (or genes). So the offspring will be: a physical baby created the classic way in Assiah, a demon heart created via the 'splitting off?' way in Gehenna, and the link between the two that makes that demon-type and that body-type compatible. I call the link 'inheritable', because thus forth the blood can be diluted until eventually (i don't know when) the offspring have no power at all created in Gehenna (no demon heart). But the link takes more time to be diluted completely, and that's when you get humans like Izumo's family who aren't 'demon' anymore but still have some inherited link that makes their bodies compatible to like-demons in Gehenna. For instance the ninetails, or their ability as tamers to bond with the smaller fox gods.

Quote
I never thought of that piece with Yukio, though, and it fits so well! Maybe Yukio wasn't able to contain all the fire so most of it got reabsorbed by Satan or something? Maybe just his eyes are really durable, lol (or the reason he's always needed glasses is because absorbing all that power was hard on his eyes?)
Yes once we started getting more info on Yukio's eyes, I started calling BS on the whole 'Yukio can see demons because he got a mashou from Rin'. It's his demon eyes for sure I think. The mashou was a lie told to Yukio to make him continue to believe he was completely human.

It might also be BS that only Yukio's 'weak body' was the cause of all this. It might have been partly it, but something still seems fishy. Maybe after using the Koumaken on Rin and having no extra demon sword or related object to seal the heart, Mephisto/Shiro used some other seal/mechanism to keep Yukio's 'demon heart' from linking to Yukio (thus staying 'with Satan's flames'). Why else would Lucifer say he can gain power once he learns about his birth? If it was just, 'baby Yukio's weak body rejected the flames, but it's stronger now so he can get them back', then he wouldn't really need to learn about what went down during his birth would he? It would just happen on its own. So there must be something else restricting it; something that was done to him by an outside source that must be learned about in order to undo it, thus giving Yukio his power.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 08:04:34 AM by SKL »

Offline Cloelia

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Re: Chapter 93 Raws
« Reply #137 on: November 23, 2017, 09:36:10 AM »
All interesting points. Personally, I'm still on the Yukio's flame was absorbed by Rin when they were still in the womb. Like: Yukio was too weak so the flame -rejected- him (as Shiro put it) so, where did HIS flame go to? Plus, the moment the first BEI happened where Rin could telepathically "hear" Yukio for a sec (hinting to a connection), plus all the times Yukio's eyes activate is when the Koma sword is sheathed or Rin's not using his flame. Yukio's apparently unconscious will for Rin to "give" him his flame (and I know there're different translations of that line).

But, this whole thing it's still a mystery. Sure, as someone said in the past, it'd be kinda tragic if one day Yukio would find out that the source of all his suffering (his painful desire to be stronger, his inferiority complex toward Rin) was originated by the fact Rin's been "keeping" his (Yukio's) share of power inside of him since birth. And it'd be too tragic for Rin too. As he doesn't have enough to feel guilty about already. So, I hope this is not the case.

Offline tandem

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Re: Chapter 93 Raws
« Reply #138 on: November 23, 2017, 10:32:32 AM »
That won't the case since Yukio didn't want the flame before nine-tail arc

It makes me wonder how Rin's demon heart was born too. Say perhaps Rin's demon heart (I imagine a ball of blue fire core or something) was born from a piece of Satan's flame splitting off and effectively creating its own independent core. Whereas maybe in Yukio's case it did not fully split off and stayed in 'Satan's domain'...with his eye being linked somehow. That might somewhat uphold Shiro's line of 'the flames rejecting him at birth' (or maybe the whole line was a lie). And perhaps there's still a part 'reserved' for Yukio that has the potential to split off. I dunno. It's all conjecture.


That was always my headcanon for how Rin got his Satan traits without doing any completely unreasonable genetics. Make a human the normal human way, then make a demon heart whatever way you make those, then just combine them. No messy worrying about whether Satan even has DNA and so on. So Rin's basically a human permanently possessed by a little independent piece of Satan. Or a demon fused to a human body, depending on how you look at it.

Me too. I always get a brain scramble when I try to reconcile demon 'genes'. Especially since I work in a genetics. I think in this theory, the key to connecting the human procreation to the demon heart procreation is establishing the link between the two to create the offspring. To do that the demon parent must be possessing an Assiah vessel, Thus creating an inheritable link between that demon type to that body type (or genes). So the offspring will be: a physical baby created the classic way in Assiah, a demon heart created via the 'splitting off?' way in Gehenna, and the link between the two that makes that demon-type and that body-type compatible.
My theory about this is simple. Demon's possession cause severe mutation in the host's gene, although it just seemed magical before the gene and DNA is discovered. And the demon heart ... probably some part of the host body becomes the demon heart after possession ?

Speaking of the infamous "the flames rejecting him at birth", I wonder if there is any translation error since Viz's translation seems different

I started calling BS on the whole 'Yukio can see demons because he got a mashou from Rin'. It's his demon eyes for sure I think. The mashou was a lie told to Yukio to make him continue to believe he was completely human.
Yukio didn't say who told him, or is it really something "told to him". I thought that's probably a reasonable theory Yukio made after he entered cram school and learned that Rin is a demon. And the whole "human can see demons after getting mashou" probably just an empirical observation without a firm foundation, since we already know people without getting mashou start seeing demons.

It might also be BS that only Yukio's 'weak body' was the cause of all this.
But why would Shiro had the mood to tell an unnecessary lie to Rin in such urgent situation?

Mephisto/Shiro used some other seal/mechanism to keep Yukio's 'demon heart' from linking to Yukio (thus staying 'with Satan's flames'). Why else would Lucifer say he can gain power once he learns about his birth? If it was just, 'baby Yukio's weak body rejected the flames, but it's stronger now so he can get them back', then he wouldn't really need to learn about what went down during his birth would he? It would just happen on its own. So there must be something else restricting it; something that was done to him by an outside source that must be learned about in order to undo it, thus giving Yukio his power.
I wonder. Sealing two demon hearts in whatever different methods seems like a boring overkill to me. I still think it's possible that Lucifer's "help you learn how to use your power" and "the secret of your birth" are two unrelated things.

So Satan wants for Yukio to be kept alive. Is it for a vessel? Or like how he also wants Rin alive because he's a useful creation.
He's a father

Anyway, it's pretty natural to me. Whatever Yukio's eye is, he's a valuable asset to Satan, just as Rin's case. Even for a potential vessel or for a weakness to Rin is possible.

now look at the chapter 72 panel above. Those are all "memories" that cross Yukio's mind while he's falling from the building, the moment he fears he's gonna die. They look like they're from Yukio's pov. The first lil panel should be Shiro holding Yukio's hand (and I swear I'm gonna check every single chapter with kid!Yukio to try and figure out if we ever saw him wear a sweater/shirt with that pattern (and everyone is welcomed to help me *grins*). The third lil panel is Rin and in the following page, he turns to look at Yukio. This panel... I think it never appeared in the manga, not even in any of Rin's or Yukio's flashbacks. (but I had a theory about it months ago (my old and crack double timeline theory, haha... Really, that theory was pure crap)

But, the middle lil panel, it's the infamous scene of Yukio and Shiemi in the rain we see in the flashback of chapter 93. Shiemi is wearing the same kimono and she's sitting at Yukio's right side, plus, it's raining. So it's the same scene.
Good observation! So Kato always knows what she is doing...  (I mean, she planned it since chapter 44...)

If the middle panel is a flashback of Yukio, I think it's safe to assume the other two are the same. Even though we haven't seen it, Kato can add it whenever she wants, just like the added flashback in chapter 93. And it's also safe to assume the other two flashback are also very important.

Offline SKL

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Re: Chapter 93 Raws
« Reply #139 on: November 24, 2017, 09:06:30 AM »
All interesting points. Personally, I'm still on the Yukio's flame was absorbed by Rin when they were still in the womb. Like: Yukio was too weak so the flame -rejected- him (as Shiro put it) so, where did HIS flame go to? Plus, the moment the first BEI happened where Rin could telepathically "hear" Yukio for a sec (hinting to a connection), plus all the times Yukio's eyes activate is when the Koma sword is sheathed or Rin's not using his flame. Yukio's apparently unconscious will for Rin to "give" him his flame (and I know there're different translations of that line).

But, this whole thing it's still a mystery. Sure, as someone said in the past, it'd be kinda tragic if one day Yukio would find out that the source of all his suffering (his painful desire to be stronger, his inferiority complex toward Rin) was originated by the fact Rin's been "keeping" his (Yukio's) share of power inside of him since birth. And it'd be too tragic for Rin too. As he doesn't have enough to feel guilty about already. So, I hope this is not the case.

I agree Yukio could have some twin connection to Rin because of that moment. You're right that the big question is 'where did the flames go then'? I don't think they are in an independent place in Gehenna with some object like Koumaken cutting him off from it (like Rin's seal). I think they are either back with Satan or with Rin's heart. But isn't there more evidence pointing to the 'with Satan' theory after this chapter? We now know it's been Satan saving Yukio all this time by controlling flames through his eye(s) and that Yukio's been hearing his voice. Aside from the time Yukio actively 'demon-called' out to Rin in fear that time, we don't see any panels of Rin reacting to Yukio using the flames. If Yukio is using from the same source as Rin, wouldn't Rin 'feel' something?


My theory about this is simple. Demon's possession cause severe mutation in the host's gene, although it just seemed magical before the gene and DNA is discovered. And the demon heart ... probably some part of the host body becomes the demon heart after possession ?
That's roughly my alternative view on the whole thing. It still amounts to the same mechanics I think.

Except for the matter of the demon heart. I think they are all born in Gehenna, because it was said Rin's demon heart is in Gehenna, while Kurikara served as window into Gehenna or something...yet it still links to Rin even with the Koumaken serving as a go-between. That's why I think the 'link' established between the Assiah host and the Gehenna demon heart is an important key in creating this kind of offspring. A 'demon' is essentially a being from Gehenna. The traditional/original ones are born from concepts. But when they travel to Assiah they can create demon hearts a different way. And the mechanics of how their children's demon hearts are born/come into existence are unclear. Though I'm thinking a sort of budding off of the parent demon and becoming it's own individual heart is a possibility. In fact it's the only explanation I can think of. I would like to see other possible explanations though.
Come to think of it we have yet to see what would happen if two demons possessing Assiah bodies try to reproduce. I wonder what that would be like. 

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But why would Shiro had the mood to tell an unnecessary lie to Rin in such urgent situation?
Yeah any theory behind Yukio getting some Satan power doesn't really explain Shiro's actions. Like if he knew Yukio was going to end up like Rin, why give only Rin the special 'sheltered' treatment. I know Yukio could see demons while Rin didn't, but it's hard to reconcile his tough-love behavior toward Yukio without him appearing like a dick if he knew Satan-related sh** would happen to Yukio down the road too.
Maybe Yukio won't have as strong or dangerous powers as Rin or something? I dunno, because even so, Yukio still ended up in a cell at risk of being executed too. It doesn't seem fair.

There's the idea that maybe Shiro didn't know and thought Yukio was normal, but we see flashbacks of him still keeping stuff from Yukio as if he's completely in the know.

Quote
I wonder. Sealing two demon hearts in whatever different methods seems like a boring overkill to me. I still think it's possible that Lucifer's "help you learn how to use your power" and "the secret of your birth" are two unrelated things.
I like the thought that he really didn't quite have demon heart 'flames' ready to connect to him because of his 'weak body' or something, but that they still did something to Yukio as an extra precaution in case it comes back. That would make Shiro look a little less like an asshole.

Or maybe you're right and they are completely unrelated. But if so, why mention it? Yukio knew many things already about it. Mainly that Rin's heart was sealed at the time, Yukio stayed human, and they were raised secretly. Why even bring up 'the secret of their birth' as if there is something still important to learn?

« Last Edit: November 24, 2017, 09:08:47 AM by SKL »

Offline SimpleBliss

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Re: Chapter 93 Raws
« Reply #140 on: November 24, 2017, 02:11:49 PM »

Yeah any theory behind Yukio getting some Satan power doesn't really explain Shiro's actions. Like if he knew Yukio was going to end up like Rin, why give only Rin the special 'sheltered' treatment. I know Yukio could see demons while Rin didn't, but it's hard to reconcile his tough-love behavior toward Yukio without him appearing like a dick if he knew Satan-related sh** would happen to Yukio down the road too.
Maybe Yukio won't have as strong or dangerous powers as Rin or something? I dunno, because even so, Yukio still ended up in a cell at risk of being executed too. It doesn't seem fair.

There's the idea that maybe Shiro didn't know and thought Yukio was normal, but we see flashbacks of him still keeping stuff from Yukio as if he's completely in the know.


Remember the line "I will raise THEM as humans" (or something to that effect)? It wasn't just about raising Rin as a human. Perhaps Shiro raised Yukio to believe he was fully human too, despite the circumstances and knowing that he wasn't. Shiro couldn't stop Yukio from learning about demons, because Yukio could see them anyways...he couldn't raise Yukio perfectly normally. But what he could do was not tell Yukio about his own demonic heritage, thus convincing him he was a normal human. He grew up thinking that. Shiro succeeded. But when Rin's powers awoke and everything went down with him, and Shiro told him about his heritage, Yukio was nowhere to be found. He only showed up when Shiro died, so could learn nothing about himself. In this way, Shiro messed up...he didn't predict that he would die before he could finish raising them. But his death screwed everything up for them. No questions were answered.

Offline tandem

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Re: Chapter 93 Raws
« Reply #141 on: November 25, 2017, 04:18:14 PM »
I agree that Shiro might have a completely different plan if he's alive now, and things go this way because Mephisto just has another goal.

However, I'm also considering another possibility : Shiro actually hadn't find a proper plan. I mean, perhaps there is a reason Shiro believed things will become worse if he told Yukio whatever hidden secret, so his "you will know" means something like "you'll know when I come up with a solution that won't result a bad end"

Except for the matter of the demon heart. I think they are all born in Gehenna, because it was said Rin's demon heart is in Gehenna, while Kurikara served as window into Gehenna or something...yet it still links to Rin even with the Koumaken serving as a go-between. That's why I think the 'link' established between the Assiah host and the Gehenna demon heart is an important key in creating this kind of offspring. A 'demon' is essentially a being from Gehenna. The traditional/original ones are born from concepts. But when they travel to Assiah they can create demon hearts a different way. And the mechanics of how their children's demon hearts are born/come into existence are unclear. Though I'm thinking a sort of budding off of the parent demon and becoming it's own individual heart is a possibility. In fact it's the only explanation I can think of. I would like to see other possible explanations though.
Mephisto said he sealed Rin's demon heart in the sword, so I think the heart was in Assiah with Rin at birth, and then Mephisto put it into the sword. Rin could be the only demon whose heart is in Gehenna

Quote
I wonder. Sealing two demon hearts in whatever different methods seems like a boring overkill to me. I still think it's possible that Lucifer's "help you learn how to use your power" and "the secret of your birth" are two unrelated things.
I like the thought that he really didn't quite have demon heart 'flames' ready to connect to him because of his 'weak body' or something, but that they still did something to Yukio as an extra precaution in case it comes back. That would make Shiro look a little less like an asshole.

Or maybe you're right and they are completely unrelated. But if so, why mention it? Yukio knew many things already about it. Mainly that Rin's heart was sealed at the time, Yukio stayed human, and they were raised secretly. Why even bring up 'the secret of their birth' as if there is something still important to learn?
Lucifer said "Don't you want to know the mystery of your eye and the secret behind your birth?" So it sounds like two offering to recruit Yukio. I think the secret is the circumstance of their mother and why Shiro raised them, which is what Yukio wants to know since childhood.

Offline SKL

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Re: Chapter 93 Raws
« Reply #142 on: November 28, 2017, 12:29:30 AM »
I agree that Shiro might have a completely different plan if he's alive now, and things go this way because Mephisto just has another goal.

However, I'm also considering another possibility : Shiro actually hadn't find a proper plan. I mean, perhaps there is a reason Shiro believed things will become worse if he told Yukio whatever hidden secret, so his "you will know" means something like "you'll know when I come up with a solution that won't result a bad end"
I like that possibility. Like Shiro -whether he knew or not he would be alive by then- knew Yukio would reach a crossroads in life. And depending on which direction he went, Yukio would find out all. But Shiro wouldn't tell him then because there was a chance Yukio would go the other direction. Or somehow being told early would affect Yukio in a bad way.
IDK the whole thing is so vague, but yeah I also agree Shiro's untimely death might have screwed up some plans.

Except for the matter of the demon heart. I think they are all born in Gehenna, because it was said Rin's demon heart is in Gehenna, while Kurikara served as window into Gehenna or something...yet it still links to Rin even with the Koumaken serving as a go-between. That's why I think the 'link' established between the Assiah host and the Gehenna demon heart is an important key in creating this kind of offspring. A 'demon' is essentially a being from Gehenna. The traditional/original ones are born from concepts. But when they travel to Assiah they can create demon hearts a different way. And the mechanics of how their children's demon hearts are born/come into existence are unclear. Though I'm thinking a sort of budding off of the parent demon and becoming it's own individual heart is a possibility. In fact it's the only explanation I can think of. I would like to see other possible explanations though.
Mephisto said he sealed Rin's demon heart in the sword, so I think the heart was in Assiah with Rin at birth, and then Mephisto put it into the sword. Rin could be the only demon whose heart is in Gehenna
This sorta-kinda makes sense too. Like Rin was born with the demon heart in Assiah where Mephisto proceeded to to transfer to the sword....where it went back to Gehenna? This is the part that confuses me the most. We know all demon power comes from Gehenna because it's in the definition of what Gehenna is. So I assumed all demon hearts are born there too, but when a demon possesses something in Assiah, their demon heart  goes to Assiah too..in a sense. Although I think even if they do go to Assiah, there always remains some foothold back in Gehenna.


Offline tandem

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Re: Chapter 93 Raws
« Reply #143 on: November 28, 2017, 11:32:30 AM »
It's hard to say before we get more information of how Gehenna looks like ...


I just reviewed this chapter and find we forget something : WHERE IS THE USB NOW?  If Shima didn't pick it up, probably it's taken by some random exorcist and start spreading in the Order...

Offline Cloelia

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Re: Chapter 93 Raws
« Reply #144 on: November 28, 2017, 01:17:21 PM »
^ I'm guessing Yukio stepped on it so he destroyed it:



Offline GregoryRaino

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Re: Chapter 93 Raws
« Reply #146 on: December 13, 2022, 07:28:56 AM »
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