Author Topic: Chapter 90 discussion (raws)  (Read 22441 times)

Offline Cloelia

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Re: Chapter 90 discussion (raws)
« Reply #90 on: May 24, 2017, 12:32:36 PM »
-Apparently the first son in each generation inherits Yamantaka, and if he dies it goes to whoever was born most recently, so Renzou got it because he was conveniently a baby when the Blue Night happened.

Well, if it works this way, I think Juzo/Mamushi's child is the one who's gonna "inherite" Yamantaka in case Renzou dies, considering he's the most recent conceived baby out of the Shima's bloodline.

It does make sense, considering that when Takezou died, Jun, Juzou, Gouzou and Kinzou were already born, yet Yamantaka picked Renzou because he was born right around that specific time.

So, essentially, the already born nephews don't count.

Anyway, imo, considering all the hints we've been given so far I consider way more possible that Shima will die rather than Yukio will join the Illuminati.

Oc, not by Juzo/Mamushi's hand :P
« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 01:01:09 PM by Cloelia »

Offline tandem

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Re: Chapter 90 discussion (raws)
« Reply #91 on: May 24, 2017, 02:07:29 PM »
Well, if it works this way, I think Juzo/Mamushi's child is the one who's gonna "inherite" Yamantaka in case Renzou dies, considering he's the most recent conceived baby out of the Shima's bloodline.

It does make sense, considering that when Takezou died, Jun, Juzou, Gouzou and Kinzou were already born, yet Yamantaka picked Renzou because he was born right around that specific time.

So, essentially, the already born nephews don't count.
NeeNee means by default Yamantaka will wait for the master's child. Only when the master died without children Yamantaka will go to the master's sibling or other relative. So if Renzou wants to get rid of Yamantaka without dying he should have a kid.

Besides, Juzou's kid has not been born yet (probably after another 10 volumes we will see the baby...). And we are not really confirmed that Yamantaka will go to the master's nephew. It's possible that sibling is of higher priority so the next candidate is actually Yumi.

Shima should just have a kid and be done with it. :P

I'm assuming Yama jumps over as soon as there are descendants... Shima's father is alive, isn't he?
But he has to find the kid's mother before having a kid. Explains a lot of his behavior...

I have been thinking about Yamantaka's method, and it can make sense. How hard is it for him to "possess" someone, or rather, an adult? Adults are more likely to be immune or more difficult to link to. But a baby isn't.
Yamantaka does not possess its master. And it's not a problem for the adults in the Shima family to accept Yamantaka.

I still think it's natural and common for Yamantaka to choose a baby because kids have more potential and can learn things quickly. It is more strange that Yamantaka goes to the master's child even when the master is still quite young.

I am pretty sure Suguro is stronger than Renzo. Juzo even stated that his decent knight skills are only when he uses Yamantaka which means that without Yamantaka Renzo has no talent in becoming an exorcist.
I think since Ch45 it is a recurring topic emphasized several times that Renzou has talent but he had been letting it rot. The fight in nine-tail arc already proved Bon is definitely not stronger than Renzou because he could not interrupt the fight between Rin and Renzou. Probably Renzou is only strong when Yamantaka is with him. But Yamantaka is with him.

The problem with the emphasis is that unlike Shiemi and others, with him, we only have Konekomaru's word for it and based on what we've seen, Renzo is clearly shown to have no talent in exorcism without Yamantaka's help. Given that Konekomaru's statement was before Yamantaka was revealed, who is to say that Konekomaru wasn't actually referring to his contract with Yamantaka when he was talking about Renzo's potential. Both his family and the illuminati have emphasized that he is only useful when he is using Yamantaka. Regarding the nine tails arc the reason i believed Suguro couldn't intervene between Rin and Renzo's fight was because a) They were pretty far away and he did not have Rin's super strength and jumping skills; and b) Renzo was using Yamantaka which only strengthens my point that Renzo is only strong when he is using Yamantaka and without him he is truly useless.

The fact that Yamantaka is with him is what he resents since that is why his family is forcing him into a position for which he has neither the skill nor the desire to pursue. The fact that he was chosen by Yamantaka by pure coincidence thanks to the blue night and Yamantaka's rather stupid way of choosing his successors only makes him resent it further. Maybe Yamantaka should really take this scenario as a reason to change his method of choosing his future tamers.
I think Renzou didn't use Yamantaka in Chapter 6 and 43, and his ability was in average among the exwires during these fight, so it seems strange to me to say without Yamantaka he has no talent.

It's also strange to measure his ability without Yamantaka. It's like measuring Izumo's ability without foxes or measuring Shiemi's ability without Nee (well we actually have seen the last example).

Regarding Koneko's words in Chapter 45. Since he directly stated Renzou should go Knight in previous chapters, there he again means Renzou has talent in Knight. And if the conversation continue it is likely Koneko would tell Rin about Yamantaka. I feel Renzou's interrupt was also suspicious there...

In my opinion, we are not really confirmed that he hates to be with Yamantaka or its power. What he has said is always more like he hates the "responsibility" . Even in this chapter when he said he envy Koneko's freedom, he said something like "Thanks to Yamantaka I am strong". And Yamantaka said to him "Obey me if you want the flame"
« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 01:19:29 AM by tandem »

Offline Cloelia

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Re: Chapter 90 discussion (raws)
« Reply #92 on: May 24, 2017, 03:03:07 PM »
To quote William of Ockham, sometimes the simplest explanation is the correct one.

So if Renzou wants to get rid of Yamantaka without dying he should have a kid.

Besides, Juzou's kid has not been born yet (probably after another 10 volumes we will see the baby...). And we are not really confirmed that Yamantaka will go to the master's nephew. It's possible that sibling is of higher priority so the next candidate is actually Yumi.

If Shima's death flags (and he got tons of em (including showing his family in the last chapter (which usually in animes is one HELLA death flag)) are not mere red herrings and he's actually going to die within this or the next arc, do you all actually see Shima go and conceive a child within such lil time?

I see Juzou/Mamushi's baby's conception still way too too much convenient. Mamushi's also in her first trimester right now, and we just hit January. Considering this, the baby should be born around the time the Artificial Gehenna Gate will finally open.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 03:13:41 PM by Cloelia »

Offline earthforge

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Re: Chapter 90 discussion (raws)
« Reply #93 on: May 24, 2017, 04:29:58 PM »
  • While Koneko may have a point that Renzou "wasting talent", I feel his imagination of being super strong with Yamantaka and protecting everyone, is obviously nonsense. It's a pity that Renzou fails to point it out

How so? All of the other members of Myou Dha seem to have that dream and it's not a problem.
Because they don't need Koneko's protection. His dream is similar to, or just a smaller version of Bon's "rebuild and lead the temple". And Bon already knows that goal is meaningless 60+ chapters ago. And Bon pushed himself training hard, so even after he realized the goal is nonsense, the result is still good. However we only see Koneko sitting here dreaming "what if I am strong"

Strongly disagree. Bon's dream was to rebuild the temple so he could bring his family together. He came to that ambition after seeing other clans leave the temple because they had lost faith in Tatsuma's ability to fundraise and because he hid the honzon (or rather, he concealed the fact it was missing). His dream was childish because it was unnecessary to bring his family together because everyone was heading their own way, even his dad. That meant *he* was unnecessary, so he had to find another reason for going. Thus, Lightning pointing out how you don't need a grand ambition. So Bon's training under him.

Bon didn't want to protect Myou Dha so much as he wanted to unify his family so he wouldn't be alone.

Now, Juuzou, Kinzou and Koneko are all of the same mindset that they want to protect Myou Dha AKA their family. That's fine because Myou Dha still needs that. Koneko might not have the Khakkara, but he does have his wits, and he does what he can with them. I think that makes him quite honorable. He doesn't dwell on his lack of strength like certain other characters *cough* Yukio *cough*, although it does bother him. He's a remarkably healthy individual, which is why he's such a wonderful contrast to the excessive Bon and the hedonistic Renzou. (I also think it's why Katou shows that he's the only cast member who can be in a romantic relationship right now, as he's well-adjusted.)
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Offline layla.A

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Re: Chapter 90 discussion (raws)
« Reply #94 on: May 24, 2017, 07:55:50 PM »
In several of the kazue kato interviews, she said that she will make the story more and more sombre, her would not really surprise me that renzou and also other "important" character die...
Renzo and yukio are dead it's on!

Offline earthforge

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Re: Chapter 90 discussion (raws)
« Reply #95 on: May 25, 2017, 04:51:52 PM »
^ Ooooh no. Nobody touches my favorite unstable prodigy. Yukio's also one of the most popular characters in this manga. There is zero chance of him getting killed off alongside Rin and Shiemi.

The Kyoto trio though... eh, I dunno. I hope not. Character deaths are a cheap way of getting drama unless they're done right.
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Offline NeeNee

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Re: Chapter 90 discussion (raws)
« Reply #96 on: May 25, 2017, 05:48:26 PM »
If (one of) the main characters get killed, it'll only be at the very end of the manga.

Unless it's a redeeming heroic sacrifice. But I hope not. Yukio has already dug trough so much shit, he could at least have a happy future.

Offline Madow

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Re: Chapter 90 discussion (raws)
« Reply #97 on: May 25, 2017, 05:58:45 PM »
^ Ooooh no. Nobody touches my favorite unstable prodigy. Yukio's also one of the most popular characters in this manga. There is zero chance of him getting killed off alongside Rin and Shiemi.

The Kyoto trio though... eh, I dunno. I hope not. Character deaths are a cheap way of getting drama unless they're done right.

I'd say Shiemi might have a fake death, getting a fatal wound or something. It's a big cliche for Shounen that the romantic interest will get injured and the MC goes berserk (E.G: Naruto, Berserk, DBZ)

Offline SimpleBliss

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Re: Chapter 90 discussion (raws)
« Reply #98 on: May 25, 2017, 07:38:14 PM »
On deaths, Shura also had a hundred arrows pointing towards her inevitable death. Hell, it was even written into her character emblem. In the end, though, she survived. It was handled really well. I'm not sure what will happen with Shima, and whether or not he will actually die, but it's true that there are also some signs that show there's some correlation (those that you guys already mentioned) between him and his death. It doesn't mean that he WILL die, necessarily, but considering there's a huge possibility (he's sandwiched between two towering organizations), I believe he'll at least come close. Like let's say they're in the Illuminati territory, and there's some big battle occurring, and due to many things he's done Shima dug himself into a huge hole and now BOTH organizations are after him. He succumbs to his fate, he's about to die, but then the heroic exwires (now exorcists) end up saving him, claiming he's still their friend and that they'll betray the Order to save him. Or, better yet, maybe Konekomaru is the one who saves him? That'd be pretty interesting. He's too important to the Kyoto trio to be killed off, and they're relationship will be tested with Shima's life on the line.

I'd like Rin or Yukio to have a dramatic "I'm dead but I'm not actually but you don't know that" moment, since that would dramatically impact the other. Like when Yukio goes to the Illuminati, he either fakes his death (a thought?) or just up and disappears in a way that makes Rin convinced that he was dead (actually, if Rin is convinced Yukio was CAPTURED, and then goes to save him only to find out Yukio went of his own free will, that'd be nice too), then we would get some serious reactions. Or maybe Yukio sees that Rin "died," and that's what pushes him to ditch everyone and everything and try to find the answers.

You know how in Fullmetal Alchemist, Edward and Alphonse were separated for an entire arc, without knowing what happened to the other? That could also happen here. Yukio could disappear (I'm finding it more and more difficult to imagine him going to the Illuminati, and easier to imagine him just disappearing by himself), and Rin would be with the main exwire group, moving forward with the war.

Hard to see where Sheimi's story fits in with all this...it came up at such an odd time. I have like 0 clues.

Offline Taytronics7

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Re: Chapter 90 discussion (raws)
« Reply #99 on: May 25, 2017, 07:40:46 PM »
^ Ooooh no. Nobody touches my favorite unstable prodigy. Yukio's also one of the most popular characters in this manga. There is zero chance of him getting killed off alongside Rin and Shiemi.

The Kyoto trio though... eh, I dunno. I hope not. Character deaths are a cheap way of getting drama unless they're done right.

I'd say Shiemi might have a fake death, getting a fatal wound or something. It's a big cliche for Shounen that the romantic interest will get injured and the MC goes berserk (E.G: Naruto, Berserk, DBZ)

The chances of any of the exwires or Yukio dying are slim. They're all a part of Mephisto's plan and he can't afford to be losing any of them, so he probably has fail safes for each of them.

Ehh, I don't want to see Rin go beserk again, especially not because Shiemi gets hurt. That would be way too cliche. Maybe they can flip it around and have Shiemi go beserk if Rin gets hurt haha ;D

Offline Madow

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Re: Chapter 90 discussion (raws)
« Reply #100 on: May 25, 2017, 08:03:58 PM »
Quote
Ehh, I don't want to see Rin go beserk again, especially not because Shiemi gets hurt. That would be way too cliche. Maybe they can flip it around and have Shiemi go beserk if Rin gets hurt haha ;D
That'd be funny but Ao No Exorcist is guilty of plenty cliches but it also has a few nice twists, so it's hard to say. I personally love to see Rin berserk, it's the only time he seriously goes all out and it's only been against Amaimon. The fact that we can also see his "true" thoughts are cool too, like during the Kashou Zanmai

Offline Taytronics7

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Re: Chapter 90 discussion (raws)
« Reply #101 on: May 25, 2017, 08:36:34 PM »
Quote
Ehh, I don't want to see Rin go beserk again, especially not because Shiemi gets hurt. That would be way too cliche. Maybe they can flip it around and have Shiemi go beserk if Rin gets hurt haha ;D
That'd be funny but Ao No Exorcist is guilty of plenty cliches but it also has a few nice twists, so it's hard to say. I personally love to see Rin berserk, it's the only time he seriously goes all out and it's only been against Amaimon. The fact that we can also see his "true" thoughts are cool too, like during the Kashou Zanmai

I do like seeing characters go full rage against their enemies, but Rin's rage seems pretty tame when compared to other mangas. Besides, he's getting more and more confident with using his flame, so something huge would have to affect him.
Shiemi going beserk because of Rin getting hurt would be a cool twist on a cliche since it's almost always the girl getting hurt and the guy rampages.

Offline Cloelia

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Re: Chapter 90 discussion (raws)
« Reply #102 on: May 25, 2017, 09:07:08 PM »
Can we consider this a taste of Shiemi's berserk side?  ;D

http://kissmanga.com/Manga/Ao-no-Exorcist/Chapter-083?id=325576#6

Offline Taytronics7

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Re: Chapter 90 discussion (raws)
« Reply #103 on: May 25, 2017, 09:24:00 PM »
Can we consider this a taste of Shiemi's berserk side?  ;D

http://kissmanga.com/Manga/Ao-no-Exorcist/Chapter-083?id=325576#6

I would consider it maybe a foreshadowing of her possible beserk side, but it's hard to imagine her going on a rampage when the only times we've seen her legitimately angry are when she yells at Rin and Yukio to stop fighting during the Kraken Arc, and her outburst at Amaimon.

Offline Cloelia

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Re: Chapter 90 discussion (raws)
« Reply #104 on: May 26, 2017, 11:21:36 AM »
I was thinking about this page. What actually happened here?

https://i.imgur.com/4bk5BvV.png

We're usually given an insight of Yukio's thoughts throughout various situations, but this time we're left clueless about what exactly crossed Yukio's mind that got him to laugh off the moment after. What got him to react that way? I thought about it and I think I found a connection with an other moment.

In the previous panels, Rin is retorting to Yukio why he cares so much about knowing about their past and Yukio reacts like: "... why?" I'm betting what Yukio logically thought to himself (before speaking it out aloud and actually say it) is something like: "Why do I care? Shouldn't it be obvious? I just want to know who we really are." But, right when he was about to say this, something came up to his mind. And from the look of the panels, I think this thought may be related to THAT specific expression Rin gives him. What could that expression have recalled to Yukio?

And here I thought about this:

http://www.mangareader.net/ao-no-exorcist/33/31

I think Rin's "determined" look in the page above from chapter 90 somehow resembles Rin's determined look in this one. So probably this is what Rin's look actually recalled to Yukio. But recalling that specific expression also had Yukio recall what happened in that specific time. And what happened is that Rin, for the first time, acknowledged himself as the son of Satan.

Moral: if Yukio was actually going to tell Rin something like: "Why do I care? Shouldn't it be obvious? I just want to know who we really are." Yukio may have suddenly realized how "stupid" that is. Rin already "knows" who he is. Yukio's the one who can't define himself. And realizing this made all the need to "raise his voice" to Rin feel useless. It's obvious that Rin would not care about knowing their past, since he doesn't need this knowledge in order to build up his identity. The only one who needs it is Yukio.

So this is what I think crossed Yukio's mind and had him break up in laugh. "What was I thinking? It's obvious that Rin can't share my same feelings. He knows exactly who he is."

And this whole thing gets emphasized but what Yukio says right after his laugh moment. He recalls some specific lines Rin told him back in the Kraken Arc. Which is the direct continuation of the conversation they started at the end of the Kyoto Arc (which they didn't have a chance to conclude right away since Rin fainted and things happened).

http://www.mangareader.net/ao-no-exorcist/37/21

https://i.imgur.com/YPqdSPT.png

So this is the way I think these situations can be linked together.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2017, 12:58:11 PM by Cloelia »