The Official Shounen Ai Thread

[Dimwit]

I recall seeing ToudouxYukio, now that you mention it. I had just thoroughly convinced myself that it never existed.

[tardar-sauce]

They actually TALK to each other and therefore it is a sane paring in many people's eyes.

[Dimwit]

Why, I think it's possible to make any pairing work, if you're really doing your damnedest and have a bit of imagination. The examples I've seen of ToudouxYukio have leaned much towards PWP, with both of them losing core elements of their personalities in the process, and around there I start thinking that no, nah: I would be more interested in reading if the author took the time to explore them as characters and find credible ways for them to come together.

---

Oh, which makes me remember something I've always wanted to ask a broader spectrum of people:

characterization in doujinshis/fanart/fanfics where pairings are featured

How important is that to you? Sometimes I've gotten the feeling that it's enough for some fans to just see their favourite characters depicted together, even if they're posing/acting in a way the character wouldn't be likely to do. How much "canonical realism", if I can put it that way, do you require of a work to really like it?

[tardar-sauce]

I....actually need a lot of characterization intact. Imagining the characters together in a scene or a drawing is fine. Reading a longer fic, I'd rather the characters be totally in character, or as close as the author can make it. One thing I've learned is that the characters are always slightly different in a fanfic because the author's interpretation always changes them a bit.

I think Yukio x Toudou would be pure hatesex or angstsex or some really abusive relationship.

[earthforge]

Why, I think it's possible to make any pairing work, if you're really doing your damnedest and have a bit of imagination. The examples I've seen of ToudouxYukio have leaned much towards PWP, with both of them losing core elements of their personalities in the process, and around there I start thinking that no, nah: I would be more interested in reading if the author took the time to explore them as characters and find credible ways for them to come together.

Yeah, I know the feeling. It's mostly because there are so few of those fics to begin with. With BonxRin and YukioxRin, there are so many that there's at least a few that are good.

I don't really like TodouxYukio because Toudou and Yukio's interactions are entirely about power. I can only see them trying to kill each other. Unfortunately, the only non-shippy fic with Toudou on FF.net is the one I wrote. Sigh.

Characterization is very very important to me. I'm extremely sensitive to characterization, to the point where I look at fics I've written and think "sheezus, this wouldn't happen, he/she wouldn't react like this!" It makes fic-writing much more difficult.

[tardar-sauce]

Inorite?

Toudou x Yukio's relationship is more about power, huh? I'd say if Toudou successfully breaks him into little pieces so that he can't even fight back anymore, then you could have yourself a creepy rape-fic and it would be in character. ...Sorta. Well, from Yukio's side. Toudou comes off as too chatty/polite to do this though...(You're the Toudou expert, you decide XD)

Now, as for who would want to read that.... :/

[earthforge]

Inorite?

Toudou x Yukio's relationship is more about power, huh? I'd say if Toudou successfully breaks him into little pieces so that he can't even fight back anymore, then you could have yourself a creepy rape-fic and it would be in character. ...Sorta. Well, from Yukio's side. Toudou comes off as too chatty/polite to do this though...(You're the Toudou expert, you decide XD)

Now, as for who would want to read that.... :/

(You're the Toudou expert, you decide XD)

... I don't know whether to be honored or saddened by this title.

The thing is, Yukio wouldn't break into a submissive mess. He'd get angry. Really angry. Yukio's reaction when he's gotten pushed far is not to break down and cry. It's to shoot the living daylights out of his tormentor.

This feeds into Toudou's rhetoric, who happily refrains "let the dark side of the force flow through you!"

It doesn't end in any other way than violence. Either Yukio changes the game such that Toudou is the one running scared (basically Yukio doesn't get baited by Toudou, which would piss off Todou as Toudou has invested so much into showing they are so similar), or Yukio murders Toudou with little short of extreme prejudice.

[tardar-sauce]

Yeah. Yukio has been pushed. He hasn't cracked beyond repair yet. (This is something we should really talk about in PM. I thought you said he would go paranoid, distracted by the demons in his own head. That is Yukio's madness and Toudou can take advantage of it if it gets to much worse levels than it is right now. I can't see Yukio in a corner in tears, or even a submissive mess. I can see him retreat into himself if the paranoia gets to him, though.)

Thus, rapefic.

And Toudou doesn't die when he is killed.

[earthforge]

Yeah. Yukio has been pushed. He hasn't cracked beyond repair yet. (This is something we should really talk about in PM. I thought you said he would go paranoid, distracted by the demons in his own head. That is Yukio's madness and Toudou can take advantage of it if it gets to much worse levels than it is right now. I can't see Yukio in a corner in tears, or even a submissive mess. I can see him retreat into himself if the paranoia gets to him, though.)

Thus, rapefic.

And Toudou doesn't die when he is killed.

... Oh Christ popsicles, you're right about Toudou not dying. Still, in canon I get the feeling that if Toudou got remotely close to trying to do anything of this magnitude to Yukio, Yukio would pull a grenade and end himself. Also, while Toudou sure as heck enjoys tormenting people, he doesn't want to destroy Yukio -- he wants conversion. That's why he backed off when he did in the IK arc.

The only way I can see to work it... which, uh, were getting a mite bit creepy here in our convo, I kinda hope it's okay... is a premise where Yukio becomes worse than Toudou and destroys Toudou completely. If you know what I mean. Because while Toudou has a use for Yukio, Yukio does not have a use for Toudou.

... I don't wanna write this kind of stuff. I already creeped myself the heck out after writing a grotesque dream sequence in a DGM fanfic.

[tardar-sauce]

Hm, yeah. So it becomes an issue of motives. And I wouldn't want to read something like this either. I just have morbid ideas sometimes~

[themoonlandian]

As soon as I read about the whole Toudou X Yukio thing what does google alert show me?

THIS T_____T


.....I'm just going to go whack my head against a wall for awhile....

[NeeNee]

I agree, Yukio x Toudou doesn't really work IC unless you make it a rape fic (or an extreme case of Stockholm Syndrome, but even that would be hard to pull off).

It bothers me with Rin x Yukio too. So many people make Rin 'the girl' and Yukio some kind of confident stud. But that's not what they are at all! Why would you even write an AnE fanfiction if that's what you're looking for? -_-

[tardar-sauce]

O.o I can't imagine Rin as a girl. Yes he may enjoy cross dressing a little more than a straight male rightfully should, but he's too much of a delinquent to be the uke. Though Yukio does come off confident to other people. I think Yukio = tsundere uke and Rin = seme.

[NeeNee]

^ I can assure you that over 90% of Rin x Yukio fics has Yukio as the seme. I did a count once (on FanFiction.net), and the examples where Rin was the dominant one could literally be counted on one hand. In fanart too, 75% of the time Yukio is the one 'doing stuff' while Rin is just lying there naked. (In the remaining instances, they are usually equals; examples of Rin as the seme are extremely rare.) *

It always surprised me how one-sided the fandom sees that ship, and I don't like it one bit. It gets worse when they turn Rin into some clingy, jealous girl/boyfriend who cries all the time (yes, THEY DO THAT. A lot). That's the point where I start wondering what the hell these people are reading AnE for.


* That's what it was like a year ago, at least. I haven't kept up with it since I finished going through FF.net. But the fanart I come across on Tumblr still looks the same.

[Dimwit]

It's kind of a relief to hear that others get frustrated over wonky characterizations, too. ^_^ With all the weird crap on the web you start wondering after a while. I really need to feel that a character acts according to the personality I've discerned from the manga - which is of course a subjective interpretation, but still. I want to be able to wipe the names from a fanfic and still be able to recognise who's who based on language and actions.

Another question that's surfaced as I lurked around the fandom: How do you ship certain couples? And by that I mean "what makes you look at two characters and think that hey, you two would really fit together"? Once again, question spurred by disheartening replies like "they look [visually] good together". ^_^'

I need them to have some sort of dynamic chemistry between their personalities: the kind where some rough edges grind together to create sparks (although not to the point it'd become a lethal conflict), but optimally there would also be some sort of common ground for them to stand on, either regarding hobbies/interests or just working together for the same goal. Overall, I match pairings based on personality and stuff from the manga that for one reason or another lights a bulb in my imagination.