Author Topic: Chapter 89 discussion (raws)  (Read 19386 times)

Offline SimpleBliss

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Re: Chapter 89 discussion (raws)
« Reply #90 on: April 24, 2017, 04:15:11 AM »
He says, "Who's the coward now?" as if it was a fact that Yukio was a coward, but Yukio is the only one who thinks that. It's not like Rin ever thought that or said that to him, right?
Unfortunately he did. And she did too
Tandem, you beat me to it.

Rin and Shura always call Yukio "bibiri megane". ((Often translated "scaredy-cat", "scaredy four-eye" or "scaredy-cat four-eye". "bibiri" means "scared" and in Japanese "bibiri neko" which literally means "scaredy-cat" is commonly used. "megane" means glasses but is also an insult like "four-eye".))
Yukio used that same word "bibiri" at Rin on the last page of last chapter.

Oops, totally overlooked this. You all make a good point. It especially makes sense knowing that Yukio used the word "bibiri," which is the insult that they always use on him. I just brushed it off as a..."loving" nickname, but I guess it does have impact after hearing it so many times.

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With the new anime season, there's been a new swarm of Yukio and Shiemi haters (Yukio because he punched Rin, and Shiemi because she's "annoying"). I was also reading on other manga forums after this recent chapter, and there's been some more Yukio and Shiemi haters showing up (Yukio because he "has no right to yell at Rin," and Shiemi because...well, she's "annoying"). I found that this chapter fleshed out their conflicts really well, and is gradually getting to the heart of the issues, so seeing this hate out there because people aren't understanding their actions or behaviours is frustrating. It's like they're expecting too much from characters who are only human, and who are acting as such. They're both imperfect. Sheimi (namely her familiar) "ruins" the party, and Sheimi has a secret she can't tell the others, but she's trying her best to support them, and she has valid reasons. Yukio might be awkward at the party, and yells at Rin, but he's driven by curiosity, not to mention has anxiety/depression over these issues which have been marinating for a long time. Leave these guys alone people

Offline tandem

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Re: Chapter 89 discussion (raws)
« Reply #91 on: April 27, 2017, 11:15:16 AM »
I was also reading on other manga forums after this recent chapter, and there's been some more Yukio and Shiemi haters showing up (Yukio because he "has no right to yell at Rin," and Shiemi because...well, she's "annoying").
I think it is one feature make AOEX special. Usually the people who closest to the MC are born to support the MC, but Kato choose to development them, too

Offline gokusdonut

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Re: Chapter 89 discussion (raws)
« Reply #92 on: April 27, 2017, 01:40:43 PM »
With the new anime season, there's been a new swarm of Yukio and Shiemi haters (Yukio because he punched Rin, and Shiemi because she's "annoying"). I was also reading on other manga forums after this recent chapter, and there's been some more Yukio and Shiemi haters showing up (Yukio because he "has no right to yell at Rin," and Shiemi because...well, she's "annoying").

I know exactly what you're talking about. Kissmanga is the main culprit. It's usually a particular shipping fandom that calls Shiemi annoying. I just find their double standards beyond laughable, because they act as if Shiemi (or Yukio) can't have problems, but then they'd call them Mary Sues/Gary Stus if they didn’t have development. It's one of those cases where they treat a character as a self-insert and act as if Rin is theirs and theirs alone, and anyone who mistreats him or is closer to him than they can tolerate is an enemy (i.e. Yukio and Shiemi). Classic case of projecting their idiocy onto the characters. Honestly, its the one portion of the AOEX fandom that I truly can't stand; the shippers of a particular fandom that I won't name and the bashers of Shiemi and Yukio.

Offline earthforge

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Re: Chapter 89 discussion (raws)
« Reply #93 on: April 27, 2017, 02:35:54 PM »
^ Yeah I've noticed this too. To be fair, I don't have a problem with the people who hate Yukio because he's Yukio. There's a lot to hate.

What bothers me are the fans who try to link Rin getting suicidal in the IK arc to his friends avoiding him and Yukio leaving him on the eve of execution. This has little basis in canon, because his reason for living was because Shiro sacrificed his life for him and he started to question if there was a reason he was saved. He was reacting to things said to him months before: Mephisto's "there's the option of suicide", Yukio's "just die please", etc. He was deeply afraid of hurting others and didn't know how to reconcile that with why he was saved. Ultimately he overcame it because he had the support of his friends and wanted to "live up to their faith". Bottom line: Rin bears no ill will towards his friends for avoiding him, and actively tried to understand and work with their reasons.

These fans identify Rin as a victim of Bon, Shiemi, and Yukio's abuse. That's exactly the word they use -- abuse. There are at least a few hundred fics where a fan writes a wangst story about Rin doing something catastrophic and it's all the fault of his "horrible" friends and brother (running away, cutting himself, eating disorders, revenge roadtrips, etc.). Every time it ends up looking like this final scene from "The Room" (infamous bad movie).

The brooding Rin in the "Rin is a victim" genre is fundamentally out-of-character and discards Rin's unique noble-bright hero aspects, especially how he responds to dark circumstances by acting goofy and trying to cheer people up. As Kato said in the interview that Facets translated, "he doesn't broadcast his dark past to the world". The biggest irony is that AoEx already has a character who broods and isolates himself in bad circumstances. However, Yukio is shown to be deeply flawed because of that behavior, so I think he's an imperfect victim that these fans can't identify with.

The converse effect is fanon Satan. Oh, Satan. There is literally no other character in the manga who's been more directly abusive to Rin. Satan kills his foster father and attempts to kidnap him in less than fifteen minutes. You'd think the people who have a misplaced sense of protecting Rin would hate Satan the most. Nope. One common trope is Rin running away to Gehenna, which is really just one happy odd family.

So, yeah. Fanon Satan is a wacky dad instead of a monster, fanon Yukio is a perfect cardboard cutout that exists to make Rin feel bad instead of a unique character with problems of his own, and fanon Rin is a sensitive fragile flower who wilts at any sign that someone doesn't love him.
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Offline xyzt

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Re: Chapter 89 discussion (raws)
« Reply #94 on: April 27, 2017, 03:14:47 PM »
With the new anime season, there's been a new swarm of Yukio and Shiemi haters (Yukio because he punched Rin, and Shiemi because she's "annoying"). I was also reading on other manga forums after this recent chapter, and there's been some more Yukio and Shiemi haters showing up (Yukio because he "has no right to yell at Rin," and Shiemi because...well, she's "annoying").

I know exactly what you're talking about. Kissmanga is the main culprit. It's usually a particular shipping fandom that calls Shiemi annoying. I just find their double standards beyond laughable, because they act as if Shiemi (or Yukio) can't have problems, but then they'd call them Mary Sues/Gary Stus if they didn’t have development. It's one of those cases where they treat a character as a self-insert and act as if Rin is theirs and theirs alone, and anyone who mistreats him or is closer to him than they can tolerate is an enemy (i.e. Yukio and Shiemi). Classic case of projecting their idiocy onto the characters. Honestly, its the one portion of the AOEX fandom that I truly can't stand; the shippers of a particular fandom that I won't name and the bashers of Shiemi and Yukio.

I personally think that apart from above the other reason Yukio and Shiemi are getting so much hate is because their growth is taking way too long. In Yukio's case, his problems, his jealousy and his inferiority complex towards his brother are all we see of him. We do not see the better parts of him because there is no focus on those sides of him. Compared to Rin who since the impure king arc is almost always shown to be upbeat, optimistic even in great stress and more or less the ideal hero (even though it is hinted that it is all a facade), we never see much of his inner mindset, his own psychological issues and are merely hinted at about them. So ofcourse compared to Rin, Yukio feels like the overly whiny one despite being relatively more realistic as a teenager dealing with the problems he has. Yukio stated in the impure king arc that he both loves and hates his brother, but at this point of time the "love" part feels like nothing more than an informed attribute. This was the one thing I feel was done better in Mob psycho 100. Mob's brother was shown to envy his brother's powers (and on some level fear him) and was willing to go to any lengths to get that power, but that wasnt dragged too long and when Mob was getting beaten up he was tearfully begging the claw member to stop it and just take him which for me was the point that heavily emphasised that despite all his envy and fear he deeply loves and cares for his brother. Yukio never has such a moment and I feel it really is taking too long for that moment to come. All we see is Yukio fearing and envying Rin so how do you expect one to believe that Yukio loves his brother.

As for Shiemi, she still has self esteem issues and again it is taking too long to resolve. She saved Izumo multiple times, curbstomped a chimera zombie all by herself and was told by everyone multiple times how good she was. At this point of time her lack of self confidence is getting annoying. It makes sense of Konekomaru because compared to how talented others are, he really is a bit useless. He did show himself as a good team strategist but that was only in one chapter out of 89 and both before and after that, the team was doing fairly well without his help so there is good reason for him (and probably me) to doubt his importance and worth. While Konekomaru has made an app to aid in aria and while it sounds useful, its effectiveness has yet to be seen in action. There is also the problem that in the beginning, Shiemi's problem of socialising is really pale when compared to one character suffering from survivor's guilt and questioning his existence, and another suffering the unfair burden of being forced to take care of his demonic brother and the feeling of being inferior to said brother. Given her background, Shiemi's problems are definitely understandable but compared to the more complex and darker problems the others are facing, you just want her to get over it already.

Honestly, I really wish this series didnt drag their problems and their impending resolution so much and took such a massive amount of time building up the suspense that it kills the hype. The series is slow as it is by taking atleast a month to come out and add to that the pacing of the chapters that would have been fine in a weekly manga but not so much in a monthly manga.

Offline earthforge

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Re: Chapter 89 discussion (raws)
« Reply #95 on: April 28, 2017, 05:33:47 PM »
AoEx would definitely NOT be better as a weekly manga. It's because AoEx is monthly that they can cover psychological themes and not be pressured to show stupid fights every week like in WSJ series (Bleach, Beelzebub, Naruto, etc). Even though the pacing sucks, at least the story is consistent. It's a trade-off.

As for Shiemi, she still has self esteem issues and again it is taking too long to resolve.

Exsqueeze me? Shiemi isn't having self-esteem issues at all. It's also ridiculous for fans to call her useless especially in this arc, because she's the one who organized the party. Her current problem is that she has a traumatizing secret.

The reason why Rin doesn't mope and dope like the other characters is because Kato doesn't want him to get too dark. He is the morality anchor of the series, kinda like Superman. Whenever adaptations have tried to make Supes darker and more like Batman, they've failed because Supes is supposed to be a Big Good.

I really don't understand comparing each character's trials to minimize the ones who've had it better. Izumo's had objectively the most traumatizing past of all the characters in the series, followed by Rin. How does that make Shiemi and Yukio less interesting? Heck, it's been thanks to Bon's minor development in becoming Lightning's apprentice that we've seen the plot advance and learned a lot.
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Offline gokusdonut

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Re: Chapter 89 discussion (raws)
« Reply #96 on: April 28, 2017, 06:49:45 PM »
I should've clarified my statement when I said that a certain sub-fandom in AoEX bashes Shiemi. The biggest (and pretty much the only "reason") I've seen people call Shiemi annoying is because she "gets in the way" of people's ship, namely the Rin/Izumo fanbase. Nothing more, nothing less. Many of them don't even acknowledge the things she's done, simply because by default they dislike her character archetype. That in and of itself is more annoying than anything.

You can tell a person all day how great they are at something, but until that person starts viewing themselves in a better light, they'll never have growth in confidence or self-esteem. Even if Shiemi's development is taking too long, that's still not a good reason to call her annoying because of it. That's Katou's fault, in that it's the path she chose to develop Shiemi. Aside from that, however, it's silly to think that she should've come past her self-confidence issues, considering she grew up as a social recluse for all her life (only meeting with Yukio for tutoring sessions) and knew absolutely nothing about nothing prior to entering the cram and high school. Compared to everyone else and considering that Shiemi literally just got started with living her life the way she wants, her low self-esteem and confidence is reasonable and justifiable.

I think people just like to give Shiemi and Yukio a hard time, because as earthforge said, people spend too much time comparing the characters to each other. Shiemi and Yukio are two of the three main characters, while everyone else, except Rin, is the supporting cast. It'd be strange if Katou developed them in matter of a few chapters. I guess it's all a matter of opinion, but it gets irritating when with every single chapter, someone is calling Shiemi and/or Yukio annoying and everything else under the sun for little to no reason.

Offline xyzt

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Re: Chapter 89 discussion (raws)
« Reply #97 on: April 28, 2017, 08:37:41 PM »
Exsqueeze me? Shiemi isn't having self-esteem issues at all. It's also ridiculous for fans to call her useless especially in this arc, because she's the one who organized the party. Her current problem is that she has a traumatizing secret.

Really? That's what I got from her "I want to be like everyone else. I'll work hard to keep up. So please wait" line in chapter 82. She still thinks she has to keep up with them when she has for all intents and purposes shown herself to be better than a lot of them. Not to mention how it was potrayed with her trying to chase after them.


The reason why Rin doesn't mope and dope like the other characters is because Kato doesn't want him to get too dark. He is the morality anchor of the series, kinda like Superman. Whenever adaptations have tried to make Supes darker and more like Batman, they've failed because Supes is supposed to be a Big Good.

The problem with that is that Rin's backstory is by no means light hearted. He was constantly socially outcasted by others and treated as a demon only to realise that he is in fact one. Not to mention that in the first chapter his father commits suicide and we are shown that he has survival's guilt for that with the whole "Why was someone like me saved?" question that constantly arises in his head. Combine that with dialogues from demons like Hachirou about how no understanding will come to him who is between both worlds and his reaction to it which might imply that he is also having an existential crisis.

Considering all the above, he definitely has a good bit of darkness in his character. Although that does not mean he cant be funny as well. Naruto is similar in that regard with having a tragic childhood and using his funny nature to deal with his own psychological problems. But there was decent exposure to both sides of Naruto from time to time depicting the tragic and psychologically messed up side of him as well as highlihting the goofy side of him. I dont want Rin to mope around all the time but I want a little more time devoted to exploring his psyche and the dark psychological issues that are being constantly hinted at.

As for Superman, the problem is as you said they are making him more like batman which he isnt. The whole reason I feel batman and superman compliment each other (in the DC animated universe atleast) so well is because of how different their upbringing, nature and overall ideology is. Batman works well as a dark and brooding hero because everything from his costume to his backstory inspires that feeling while superman inspires the opposite feeling. So any attempt to make him like batman is going to inevitably fail.

AoEx would definitely NOT be better as a weekly manga. It's because AoEx is monthly that they can cover psychological themes and not be pressured to show stupid fights every week like in WSJ series (Bleach, Beelzebub, Naruto, etc). Even though the pacing sucks, at least the story is consistent. It's a trade-off.

Okay, atleast in case of Naruto, it also deals with a lot of psychological themes of different characters like lonliness, lack of purpose and other problems you expect from child soldiers and people affected from war to have as well as various ideologies and views of peace, teacher-student bond, bonds between comrades and so on despite being a weekly shonen jump manga and having "stupid" fights. The first half and a good portion of the second half was very well written, and it was only after there was unnecessarily excessive focus on uchiha and the horrible final arc that really damaged the series, but for the most part Naruto was well written.

I really don't understand comparing each character's trials to minimize the ones who've had it better. Izumo's had objectively the most traumatizing past of all the characters in the series, followed by Rin. How does that make Shiemi and Yukio less interesting? Heck, it's been thanks to Bon's minor development in becoming Lightning's apprentice that we've seen the plot advance and learned a lot.

I am pretty sure I never said Yukio wasnt interesting. I gave a different reason for why people would not like him.

As for why Shiemi is less interesting? The bigger and harder the obstacles a character has to overcome, the more interesting it is to see that character overcome them. The other characters have far bigger and more complex problems so it is more fun to see them overcome it, while Shiemi's problems arent that big compared to the rest so it isnt that interesting to see her overcome it. I do realise that for Shiemi it is big obstacle but from a 3rd person perspective her problems are less interesting than the others.

Also regarding Suguro, considering Yukio is so dead obsessed with uncovering the truth we would have had the plot advanced anyways. And in case of Suguro, the problem is that he is getting too much development and the lion's share of screen time while his two friends are still as useless and unimportant as ever. Despite his interesting reveal as a spy Renzo is still useless given his only major act as a spy has been to try driving Yukio to the dark side which could have been cut out without changing anything in Yukio's behaviour only emphasises the pointlessness of his job. Instead of Renzo asking Yukio about Lucifer's offer in chapter 67 you could have just had Mephisto asking Yukio about his work there in his usual eccentric fashion hinting that he knows about what happened causing Yukio to have a flashback, lie to Mephisto and walk away while having  a slight breakdown outside. And Renzo' involvement in Hachirou's arc could have been skipped altogether with a random mook or Toudou himself getting Hachirou after he is reduced to a mindless snake. I really feel right now that Renzo only became a spy because he was popular and there was a pressure to make him relevant. And I have already said  about Konekomaru. If the screen time was even with every character getting decent amount screentime I probably wouldnt complain about Suguro getting so much importance.

You can tell a person all day how great they are at something, but until that person starts viewing themselves in a better light, they'll never have growth in confidence or self-esteem. Even if Shiemi's development is taking too long, that's still not a good reason to call her annoying because of it. That's Katou's fault, in that it's the path she chose to develop Shiemi. Aside from that, however, it's silly to think that she should've come past her self-confidence issues, considering she grew up as a social recluse for all her life (only meeting with Yukio for tutoring sessions) and knew absolutely nothing about nothing prior to entering the cram and high school. Compared to everyone else and considering that Shiemi literally just got started with living her life the way she wants, her low self-esteem and confidence is reasonable and justifiable.

Yes but I dont get why Shiemi refuses to see herself in a better light. It has been more than six months and she has already improved greatly on her social skills to the point of rarely being flustered while talking to people. Usually people with low self esteem only continue to stay that way when they make mistakes from time to time and get scolded for it which really effects their already low self-confidence but since the impure king arc Shiemi has been doing exceptionally well with everyone noticing and reminding her of it. Not to mention the many social events she is helping in. If you continue to be socially reclusive and reluctant to participate in social activities it would make sense for you to not get out of your self esteem issues quickly but Shiemi has been participating in such events since the festival arc and by this point of time she is too socially well developed to still have self-esteem issues. It feels like she is having self-confidence issues for just for the sake of it and is being stubborn in refusing to acknowledge herself and I am sorry but that is a bit annoying.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 08:59:35 PM by xyzt »

Offline chinonamida

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Re: Chapter 89 discussion (raws)
« Reply #98 on: April 29, 2017, 12:33:07 AM »
I can attest that people were annoyed and complaining about many AnE characters since the beginning of the series. So time have not much to do with this.

And from what I remember, the main characters people had a problem with at the start were, Shiemi and Izumo.
I don't really remember people hating on Yukio that much, because everyone pretty much agreed he was acting ... in reprehensible ways from time to time. The main object of discord regarding him was concerning the reasons why he was like that.
But as for Shiemi and Izumo there was (and maybe still are, though I haven't witnessed it in while) a division between some people who happened to hate or dislike Shiemi and like Izumo and some people who happened to hate or dislike Izumo and like Shiemi. And I think it's because... well, let's say it like this, when Shiemi and Izumo had a confrontation in the manga itself, people commented on this event and it was clear some thought Shiemi was more at fault while other thought Izumo was more at fault, making people take sides and argue. But there weren't as much heated debates when Rin and Yukio or Rin and Ryuuji had confrontations. Because when these guys confront each others, even if they act like idiots to various degrees and even when they're right or wrong on different matters, they always do so like some bulls locking horns. But when Shiemi and Izumo had their confrontation, it was more like a bull stomping on a bunny. Then, some people accused Shiemi of being too meek and childish while others accused Izumo of being a bully. And I think that's the first and main issue that divided people on Shiemi's or Izumo's sides, before the shipping issue, because RinXIzumo shippers started when Izumo gave Rin back his shirt which happened after Shiemi and Izumo's initial confrontation and the devision of fans. The shipping issue just exacerbated the disagreements.
And I happened to be one of the people who didn't like Shiemi. Regarding Izumo, I knew she had some issues, but so did Rin, Yukio, Ryuuji, etc... But Shiemi really had an issue that I couldn't overlook; she was way too meek and childish. I didn't hold it against her, but I without a doubt did want her to grow out of it as swiftly as possible. I also happened to be one of the people who didn't like Rin's crush on Shiemi. He had previously stated he liked the type of women who... have a strong character, then he falls for the meekest and most childish one ever!??? And it doesn't help that I like the first type too and also absolutely dislike the second one. Though me and Rin aren't the same person so it shouldn't be relevant. But, man, I thought you were on my side, why the sudden and unexplained change of heart? It also doesn't help that the reason seemed like it could very likely be only because of her ra-*. And, most importantly, her friend-zoning him was making me suffer in Rin's place just looking at the poor chap. But what I remember making it even worse, even though I don't mind opposing opinions and heated debates, was how confused I was by people who were saying Shiemi was clearly and absolutely in love with Rin and who were vehemently denying all the friend-zoning as well as calling "haters" anyone who critiqued Shiemi or said she didn't like Rin romantically. These people were also there when you'd write things like "Aw, did you see that scene? Izumo being such a tsundere... Not knowing how to say thanks and ending up being mean again. So cute." and they'd reply something like "Izumo's just a bitch I don't get why some people think that's cute".

Well well, look at the time. got to go soon... I'll leave you with the raw manuscript of that.

This was the one thing I feel was done better in Mob psycho 100. Mob's brother was shown to envy his brother's powers (and on some level fear him) and was willing to go to any lengths to get that power, but that wasnt dragged too long and when Mob was getting beaten up he was tearfully begging the claw member to stop it and just take him which for me was the point that heavily emphasised that despite all his envy and fear he deeply loves and cares for his brother. Yukio never has such a moment and I feel it really is taking too long for that moment to come. All we see is Yukio fearing and envying Rin so how do you expect one to believe that Yukio loves his brother.
They're wasn't a great debate on that matter in forums since I'm pretty much alone on this, at least on forums. But even at the time I remember defending Yukio on a few things. Like when he punched Rin at the end of the IK arc, most people seemed to react like "wtf Yukio?", but that to me shows he cares. I think he's misunderstood.

Like I was pretty much the only one defending Renzou during his confrontation with Koneko in the IK arc or during the Inari arc before it was confirmed he was a double spy. (Though I haven't really commented on his more recent actions... with Yukio and all.)
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 12:35:59 AM by chinonamida »

Offline tandem

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Re: Chapter 89 discussion (raws)
« Reply #99 on: April 29, 2017, 04:03:51 PM »
It makes sense of Konekomaru because compared to how talented others are, he really is a bit useless. He did show himself as a good team strategist but that was only in one chapter out of 89 and both before and after that, the team was doing fairly well without his help so there is good reason for him (and probably me) to doubt his importance and worth. While Konekomaru has made an app to aid in aria and while it sounds useful, its effectiveness has yet to be seen in action. There is also the problem that in the beginning, Shiemi's problem of socializing is really pale when compared to one character suffering from survivor's guilt and questioning his existence, and another suffering the unfair burden of being forced to take care of his demonic brother and the feeling of being inferior to said brother. Given her background, Shiemi's problems are definitely understandable but compared to the more complex and darker problems the others are facing, you just want her to get over it already.
But Shiemi never has such severe self esteem issue as Koneko, even in the IK arc. And I think she already gone over it when Nee was back. Then for a long time (more than 50 chapters or 10 volumes) she doesn't really have any issue. Currently her only issue is the unknown information her mother told her.

Exsqueeze me? Shiemi isn't having self-esteem issues at all. It's also ridiculous for fans to call her useless especially in this arc, because she's the one who organized the party. Her current problem is that she has a traumatizing secret.

Really? That's what I got from her "I want to be like everyone else. I'll work hard to keep up. So please wait" line in chapter 82. She still thinks she has to keep up with them when she has for all intents and purposes shown herself to be better than a lot of them. Not to mention how it was portrayed with her trying to chase after them.
I interpret her monologue in Chapter 82 as, she has huge ambitions and wants to reach higher goals.

Yes, literally she said she wants to keeps up with others. However, as you said she is already great and not behind them. This is not uncommon or unhealthy. I think this is a large motivation for people to try their best.

Naruto is similar in that regard with having a tragic childhood and using his funny nature to deal with his own psychological problems. But there was decent exposure to both sides of Naruto from time to time depicting the tragic and psychologically messed up side of him as well as highlighting the goofy side of him.
in case of Naruto, it also deals with a lot of psychological themes of different characters like loneliness, lack of purpose and other problems you expect from child soldiers and people affected from war to have as well as various ideologies and views of peace, teacher-student bond, bonds between comrades and so on despite being a weekly shonen jump manga and having "stupid" fights.
Although I agree that in Naruto, the development of Naruto himself is very complete, I think all other characters are underdeveloped, including Sakura and Sasuke. I guess the trade-off is inevitable, if you have to put more fight in the series, you won't have screen time to develop many characters.

I do realise that for Shiemi it is big obstacle but from a 3rd person perspective her problems are less interesting than the others.
But Shiemi also doesn't spend too many chapters to develop! In my opinion, only Chapter 3, 82, part of Chapter 26, 30, 83 are dedicated for her development.

in case of Suguro, the problem is that he is getting too much development and the lion's share of screen time while his two friends are still as useless and unimportant as ever.
In my opinion, he almost doesn't have any development in this arc. In fact it is (surprisingly) Lightning seems to have development during the investigation.

I also happened to be one of the people who didn't like Rin's crush on Shiemi. He had previously stated he liked the type of women who... have a strong character
Did he?  I thought Rin started to like her in Volume 1?

It also doesn't help that the reason seemed like it could very likely be only because of her ra-*. And, most importantly, her friend-zoning him was making me suffer in Rin's place just looking at the poor chap. But what I remember making it even worse, even though I don't mind opposing opinions and heated debates, was how confused I was by people who were saying Shiemi was clearly and absolutely in love with Rin and who were vehemently denying all the friend-zoning as well as calling "haters" anyone who critiqued Shiemi or said she didn't like Rin romantically.
Rin doesn't really have any deep reason to love her. I think Shura has described the situation very clear (It's about Yukio, but Rin is the same) ...  So isn't it actually fair for her to friend-zone Rin?

Offline earthforge

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Re: Chapter 89 discussion (raws)
« Reply #100 on: April 29, 2017, 05:03:34 PM »
Exsqueeze me? Shiemi isn't having self-esteem issues at all. It's also ridiculous for fans to call her useless especially in this arc, because she's the one who organized the party. Her current problem is that she has a traumatizing secret.

Really? That's what I got from her "I want to be like everyone else. I'll work hard to keep up. So please wait" line in chapter 82.

That character development mini-arc finished. We're onto Moriyama family secrets now.

The problem with that is that Rin's backstory is by no means light hearted.

Not disputing that. I also agree that Rin needs much more screen time. But why does a dark backstory mean that a character has to fixate on it? IMO Rin is a breath of fresh air from the other moping shounen heroes who have BSODs upon discovering their dark histories. He knows that the story of their birth will be unpleasant and what is there to know? Yukio's more classic response provides a foil.

Rin doesn't need to brood to convey emotional depth. Simply seeing him interact more with characters that challenge his status quo (Lucifer, Mephisto, Yukio, and sometimes Shura) brings out more of what he thinks. That's what I want.

Naruto is similar in that regard with having a tragic childhood and using his funny nature to deal with his own psychological problems. But there was decent exposure to both sides of Naruto from time to time depicting the tragic and psychologically messed up side of him as well as highlihting the goofy side of him.

Did we read the same manga? The first half of Naruto focused much more on Sasuke's problems to the exclusion of all others. That only changed in the second half.

AoEx would definitely NOT be better as a weekly manga. It's because AoEx is monthly that they can cover psychological themes and not be pressured to show stupid fights every week like in WSJ series (Bleach, Beelzebub, Naruto, etc). Even though the pacing sucks, at least the story is consistent. It's a trade-off.

Okay, atleast in case of Naruto, it also deals with a lot of psychological themes of different characters like lonliness, lack of purpose and other problems you expect from child soldiers and people affected from war to have as well as various ideologies and views of peace, teacher-student bond, bonds between comrades and so on despite being a weekly shonen jump manga and having "stupid" fights. The first half and a good portion of the second half was very well written, and it was only after there was unnecessarily excessive focus on uchiha and the horrible final arc that really damaged the series, but for the most part Naruto was well written.

I'm not blaming the manga in WSJ for showing stupid fights. I'm bringing up that WSJ pressures all of its' series to have fights and simplistic storylines. It's like editorial mandates in Western comics. Monthly series are targeted towards an older demographic and are thus given considerably more creative freedom.

Out of curiosity, when did you start reading Naruto? In my experience, series always look well-written and paced when they're binge-read or watched. It's the waiting around that changes that. I started following it near the Pain arc. IMO pacing went to crap in the World War arc, but the writing was on the wall because Kishimoto couldn't stop creating new characters. He'd remember to develop Naruto and Sasuke, but every other supporting character from the first half completely stopped. Sakura, Gaara, Rock Lee, etc all became flat side characters so characters like Buzz B could be developed and then ignored. Also: all of Naruto is unnecessarily Uchiha focused. That was a complaint from Day 1.

I am pretty sure I never said Yukio wasnt interesting. I gave a different reason for why people would not like him.

Oh I get that, I just find trauma dick size comparisons frustrating and dumb. It's like people only do that to make their fav choices morally superior.

As for why Shiemi is less interesting? The bigger and harder the obstacles a character has to overcome, the more interesting it is to see that character overcome them.

I dispute this. The difficulty of obstacles are relative to the character. Shiemi went from hiding from the world, to actively wanting to be a part of it. That's character development. IMO, Bon actually shows the best character development of anyone in the manga. Compare his introductory chapter to the latest chapter -- he's changed from a narrow-minded stubborn asshole to a more rounded thoughtful fellow. Everyone else has had more punctuated character growth. Izumo's probably the greatest offender, but she was so traumatized that it took everything going to shit to get her to grow.

Regardless, I'm sure even when we learn the Moriyama family secret, people will still find Shiemi annoying. As chino pointed out, that's been the sentiment towards her since Day 1. I think it's gotten a little better with time, especially with her losing the clumsy antics. Similarly, anger towards Yukio has grown, although I think it was strongest during the Kraken arc (which is ironically my fav because Yukio is not hiding his anger).

Also regarding Suguro, considering Yukio is so dead obsessed with uncovering the truth we would have had the plot advanced anyways.

Disagreeing hard here. Yukio is stuck because he has a path to uncover the truth but it means going to the Illuminati. Mephisto and Lucy are letting him stew in frustration until he makes a choice. His stubbornness is keeping the plot from advancing. That's why we needed Lightning (and Bon as our PoV character) to find the plot.

Despite his interesting reveal as a spy Renzo is still useless given his only major act as a spy has been to try driving Yukio to the dark side which could have been cut out without changing anything in Yukio's behaviour only emphasises the pointlessness of his job.

Renzou is intentionally not transparent about his acts as a spy. Bon and Renzou also have a great contrast going on, with Renzou being a representative of the Illuminati and Bon being a representative of the True Cross Order. There's been build-up for that conflict. We also have yet to see how he'll act in a future engagement with the enemy.

I'm strongly disagreeing on the necessity of Renzou's role onboard the "get Yukio to the dark side" bandwagon. Yukio is stubbornly refusing to decide whether or not to join, saying repeatedly that he "doesn't need it". So he has to be pushed. Renzou's in a unique position to pressure Yukio since he's frequently around Yukio in the cram school and Yukio can't simply shoot him. None of the other Illuminati characters can say the same, and Mephisto is deliberately keeping a distance.

Renzou has also been provoking Yukio more by what he says than the circumstance. When Yukio attempted to threaten with "are you really on our side?", Renzou threw that back in his face with "you know, the same could be said to you. Shouldn't you consult someone?". Renzou's a constant reminder that Yukio's secret can get out any time, and once it does, he's toast. That pressure drove Yukio to the suicide training. Subsequently, we saw Renzou remind Yukio that he knew parts of Yukio's bluff were actually true and prod him again to tell someone, which combined with Rin's forgiving reaction to his bluff led to Yukio's "broader vision" declaration.

I'll agree on Koneko though. The poor dude was stuffed in a reindeer costume.
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Offline xyzt

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Re: Chapter 89 discussion (raws)
« Reply #101 on: April 29, 2017, 06:21:15 PM »
I also happened to be one of the people who didn't like Rin's crush on Shiemi. He had previously stated he liked the type of women who... have a strong character, then he falls for the meekest and most childish one ever!???

Shiemi is by no means a weak character. In contrast I would argue that pre- character development Izumo was the woman with the weaker character. In her first chapter she couldnt save Paku and was then crying in a corner not wanting to be seen in her state by others. That is what a character with a weak core is like. Izumo is afraid to look weak and is scared of connecting with others. She sed to think of her feminine traits as a weakness and childish and that's what made her a weak female character. Shiemi while initially being timid due to her social inexperience later grows out of it but still openly displays her emotions, openly acknowledges her weakness and mistakes and isnt ashamed of having them. That is what i believe to be maturity and that makes Shiemi a stronger character. Hell, even in her introduction chapter she out of guilt commits herself to taking care of her grandmother's garden forever. She was childish in the beginning because of her background but by the illuminati arc she is a far more stronger character than Izumo was which is why it annoys me that she refuses to see herself as strong. I am amazed how people think of Tsunderes as strong female characters while i see them as exactly the opposite of that and more as extremely weak hearted and immature characters which is why they tend to the most visible character development when they mature. Tsundere characters like Izumo have a little kid's definition of what it means to have a strong personality which is probably why their tsundere moments come of as cute similar to how when a little kid tries to act like an adult.
Also that is the reason why Yukio thinks of himself as weaker than Rin. Yukio constantly tries to live up to other's expectations of him while Rin openly acts like himself and isnt remotely affected by what other think of him (atleast that's probably what Yukio thinks of Rin as).

 
This was the one thing I feel was done better in Mob psycho 100. Mob's brother was shown to envy his brother's powers (and on some level fear him) and was willing to go to any lengths to get that power, but that wasnt dragged too long and when Mob was getting beaten up he was tearfully begging the claw member to stop it and just take him which for me was the point that heavily emphasised that despite all his envy and fear he deeply loves and cares for his brother. Yukio never has such a moment and I feel it really is taking too long for that moment to come. All we see is Yukio fearing and envying Rin so how do you expect one to believe that Yukio loves his brother.
They're wasn't a great debate on that matter in forums since I'm pretty much alone on this, at least on forums. But even at the time I remember defending Yukio on a few things. Like when he punched Rin at the end of the IK arc, most people seemed to react like "wtf Yukio?", but that to me shows he cares. I think he's misunderstood.

Yeah, that's not really what i would call a positive way of showing your concern for your brother. Atleast he could have hugged and said that he was glad that he is okay before proceeding to punch him and reprimand him for using his powers. Not to mention when Rin was sentenced to death and Yukio just gave up. I dont expect him to break him out of prison but atleast he could tried to use more legal routes to save his brother like trying to convince the heads against Rin's execution.

Naruto is similar in that regard with having a tragic childhood and using his funny nature to deal with his own psychological problems. But there was decent exposure to both sides of Naruto from time to time depicting the tragic and psychologically messed up side of him as well as highlighting the goofy side of him.
in case of Naruto, it also deals with a lot of psychological themes of different characters like loneliness, lack of purpose and other problems you expect from child soldiers and people affected from war to have as well as various ideologies and views of peace, teacher-student bond, bonds between comrades and so on despite being a weekly shonen jump manga and having "stupid" fights.
Although I agree that in Naruto, the development of Naruto himself is very complete, I think all other characters are underdeveloped, including Sakura and Sasuke. I guess the trade-off is inevitable, if you have to put more fight in the series, you won't have screen time to develop many characters.

There is also Choji, Shikamaru, Neji, Gaara, Hinata, Kakashi, Sasori, Kankuro, Tsunade, Kurama and so on. I agree Sasuke's development was horrible and as i said the increasing focus on him and the uchiha in the second half was part  of what damaged the series. Apart from that, I also agree that  Sakura and other minor character were also not given much character development.
in case of Suguro, the problem is that he is getting too much development and the lion's share of screen time while his two friends are still as useless and unimportant as ever.
In my opinion, he almost doesn't have any development in this arc. In fact it is (surprisingly) Lightning seems to have development during the investigation.
Yeah, in this arc he was more of an audience surrogate which is probably why i wasnt much irritated this time around, but even then he still gets way too much screentime when there are other characters who i really wish would get some. So i'm guessing Takara is going to forever be a background character with his whole past forever being a mystery. Anyways, even if Suguro isnt the focus the arc is clearly building up to a future character development arc for him with him being forced to bear the guilt and hide the truth, something that he constantly lectured and scolded others for doing. I swear Suguro feels more like one of the actual protagonists of the series than Rin and Shiemi, with having lots of focus and a character development that is more evenly spread throughout the series from start to end. I wont be surprised ( but extremely disappointed) if it turns out that Rin is a decoy protagonist and Suguro is the actual protagonist of the story.


The problem with that is that Rin's backstory is by no means light hearted.

Not disputing that. I also agree that Rin needs much more screen time. But why does a dark backstory mean that a character has to fixate on it? IMO Rin is a breath of fresh air from the other moping shounen heroes who have BSODs upon discovering their dark histories. He knows that the story of their birth will be unpleasant and what is there to know? Yukio's more classic response provides a foil.

Rin doesn't need to brood to convey emotional depth. Simply seeing him interact more with characters that challenge his status quo (Lucifer, Mephisto, Yukio, and sometimes Shura) brings out more of what he thinks. That's what I want.

Rin is by no means a unique case. Both Luffy from one piece and Gon from Hunter x Hunter show no interest in their origins and in luffy's case, he is never shown to dwell on the one dark part of his backstory. I dont remember Ichigo making a big deal about his dark history either (although in this case i dont remember correctly so i could be wrong), Midoriya from Boku no hero academia doesnt really have a dark backstory and even then he never let it stop from trying to pursue his dream, Aladdin from Magi isnt shown to be affected by the circumstances of his birth either (although again in this case i am probably not remebering clearly) and even in case of naruto, he learns about it in the first chapter and his reaction isnt that different from how Rin reacted when he learned he was Satan's son (by the way doesn't Rin's reaction to learning his heritage count as brooding then). Naruto's thoughts also were far more focused on his mistreatment by the villages and most of the times he did so because most of the villians he fought had extremely  strong parallels to his own past with gaara being the closest. The only example I probably know of where the hero starts brooding over his dark origin was Eren from Shingeki no Kyoujin but that is an extremely dark series.

In fact I am pretty sure it is mostly the rival character's role to be brooding and obsessing about his dark past and this series is following that tradition perfectly. Also uptil now the only inner thoughts I got from Rin is that he is having survivor's guilt and is possibly really conflicted about his place in the world (and the latter is just speculation), what else did we learn about his state of mind.

Naruto is similar in that regard with having a tragic childhood and using his funny nature to deal with his own psychological problems. But there was decent exposure to both sides of Naruto from time to time depicting the tragic and psychologically messed up side of him as well as highlihting the goofy side of him.

Did we read the same manga? The first half of Naruto focused much more on Sasuke's problems to the exclusion of all others. That only changed in the second half.

Out of curiosity, when did you start reading Naruto? In my experience, series always look well-written and paced when they're binge-read or watched. It's the waiting around that changes that. I started following it near the Pain arc. IMO pacing went to crap in the World War arc, but the writing was on the wall because Kishimoto couldn't stop creating new characters. He'd remember to develop Naruto and Sasuke, but every other supporting character from the first half completely stopped. Sakura, Gaara, Rock Lee, etc all became flat side characters so characters like Buzz B could be developed and then ignored. Also: all of Naruto is unnecessarily Uchiha focused. That was a complaint from Day 1.

The Tsunade arc both introduced and gave character development to Tsunade and showed the growing bond between naruto and jiraiya, the chuunin exams had character depth and starting character development for a lot of the genin including neji, hinata, sakura and gaara. Yes Sasuke has a lot of development but it was clearly building up to the first clash between sasuke and naruto  which is one of the better fights in the series and the sasuke retrieval arc also had character development for choji, neji, shikamaru and naruto himself. Besides then Sasuke's revenge arc hadnt exactly started and it is only after killing itachi and deciding to destroy the entire leaf village did his character arc really start to drag like hell and then started zigzagging and going all over the place. Not to mention naruto's over obsession with bringing back sasuke only took root in the second half (after the rescue gaara mission) where bringing back sasuke was all he could think of. And not to mention the naruto is the chosen one plotline that completely contradicted the theme in his fight with neji.

I dont believe the uchihas were unnecessarily important from day 1. Ofcourse Sasuke's entire arc was going to revolve around that since they were his family and they were all massacred and sasuke is one of  the 4 main characters. It is similar to how Kurapika's entire arc in Hunter x Hunter revolves around the scarlet eyes and the phantom troupe. But in the beginning the Uchihas werent given that level of importance in the series. Hell in the chunin exams Kakashi stated that the sharingan actually came from the byakugan and sharingan's basic ability was simply to copy other techniques and even then it could not copy other blood limits. It was only much later that the uchiha clan became one of the 2 major clans that formed the village and then much later the senju and uchiha were founded by the sons of the sage of the six paths and so on and so forth.

AoEx would definitely NOT be better as a weekly manga. It's because AoEx is monthly that they can cover psychological themes and not be pressured to show stupid fights every week like in WSJ series (Bleach, Beelzebub, Naruto, etc). Even though the pacing sucks, at least the story is consistent. It's a trade-off.

Okay, atleast in case of Naruto, it also deals with a lot of psychological themes of different characters like lonliness, lack of purpose and other problems you expect from child soldiers and people affected from war to have as well as various ideologies and views of peace, teacher-student bond, bonds between comrades and so on despite being a weekly shonen jump manga and having "stupid" fights. The first half and a good portion of the second half was very well written, and it was only after there was unnecessarily excessive focus on uchiha and the horrible final arc that really damaged the series, but for the most part Naruto was well written.

I'm not blaming the manga in WSJ for showing stupid fights. I'm bringing up that WSJ pressures all of its' series to have fights and simplistic storylines. It's like editorial mandates in Western comics. Monthly series are targeted towards an older demographic and are thus given considerably more creative freedom.

When it comes to fights, I feel atleast Rin's fights in the series are the weaker part of the story. Most of Rin's difficulties in battles are due to Rin's own psychological issues or his own idiocy (getting knocked out by Hachirou twice). His fight with Amaimon was the only real challenging fight and after that the arc villian in each successive arc became less and less challenging with Gedouin probably being the series low point in terms of arc villian. Thank goodness you cant really go lower than that incompetent waste of so many months of chapters.In contrast to Rin's fight Yukio's fight with Toudou was a great mix of strategy and psychological trauma. Why cant we have more fights like Toudou and Yukio's battle? I prefer that kind of fight to the constant large monstrosities that can get one shotted by Rin if he actually put his act together.
Yor can say what you want, Naruto's (and for that matter, even one piece and boku no hero academia) fights in the first half and some portion of the second half  were actually pretty good with all character especially being pretty strategic in their fights and not just one shotting their opponents with overwhelming power.

As for why Shiemi is less interesting? The bigger and harder the obstacles a character has to overcome, the more interesting it is to see that character overcome them.

I dispute this. The difficulty of obstacles are relative to the character. Shiemi went from hiding from the world, to actively wanting to be a part of it. That's character development. IMO, Bon actually shows the best character development of anyone in the manga. Compare his introductory chapter to the latest chapter -- he's changed from a narrow-minded stubborn asshole to a more rounded thoughtful fellow. Everyone else has had more punctuated character growth. Izumo's probably the greatest offender, but she was so traumatized that it took everything going to shit to get her to grow.
I did say that for Shiemi her obstacles are big but relative to other characters her problems dont seem that big and comparisions are inevitable in a series especially one where the series itself loves to draw parallels and comparisions between character struggles.

As for Suguro, I would have been far happier if everybody actually treated him like a narrow minded stubborn asshole that he was in the beginning instead of idolizing him and being super understanding of his behaviour because he means well (as if that justified his behaviour). Ofcourse he would have the best character development in the series, he has the most screentime and focus in the series, it would be a shame if his character development wasnt good after that much focus, and i am pretty sure he is going to continue this much focus. Izumo's entire character development seems to have happened in just one arc while Suguro is getting multiple arcs to properly develop him.

Regarding Renzo, are we certain he is loyal to the illuminati. Didnt the series establish that he greatly cares about his friends. Then I doubt he would come into conflict with Suguro.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 09:38:07 PM by xyzt »

Offline gokusdonut

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Re: Chapter 89 discussion (raws)
« Reply #102 on: April 29, 2017, 06:21:31 PM »
But as for Shiemi and Izumo there was (and maybe still are, though I haven't witnessed it in while) a division between some people who happened to hate or dislike Shiemi and like Izumo and some people who happened to hate or dislike Izumo and like Shiemi.

Trust and believe me when I say that it's absolutely, 100% still like that. Granted, I hardly, if ever, see fans of Shiemi dog pile on Izumo to the capacity that Izumo's fanbase does Shiemi. Mangafox, Kissmanga, and sometimes even tumblr are rampant with it (granted, I've blocked majority of them, so I don’t know what's going on there these days).

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« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 06:26:26 PM by gokusdonut »

Offline NeeNee

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Re: Chapter 89 discussion (raws)
« Reply #103 on: April 29, 2017, 08:25:16 PM »
What defines "strong, female character" to people anyway?

I always considered Bulma from Dragon Ball a strong female character. Physically she's probably the weakest of the entire cast and she's constantly getting in trouble and asking the boys for help (or manipulating them into helping her), but damn, girl, she knows what she wants and nobody ain't gonna stop her.

(Granted, one of the things she wants is a boyfriend, but rather than play sweet & pretty and wait for boys to notice her, she goes hunting for one. She's pretty independent, is what I'm saying.)

Offline gokusdonut

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Re: Chapter 89 discussion (raws)
« Reply #104 on: April 29, 2017, 08:59:15 PM »
What defines "strong, female character" to people anyway?

I always considered Bulma from Dragon Ball a strong female character. Physically she's probably the weakest of the entire cast and she's constantly getting in trouble and asking the boys for help (or manipulating them into helping her), but damn, girl, she knows what she wants and nobody ain't gonna stop her.

(Granted, one of the things she wants is a boyfriend, but rather than play sweet & pretty and wait for boys to notice her, she goes hunting for one. She's pretty independent, is what I'm saying.)

I was being more rhetorical than anything, because people act as if being kind and sweet defines a weak woman, when that couldn’t be further from the truth. It takes a lot of strength to bounce back from ordeals with a smile, man or woman, but these are traits that are praised when a guy does it but put down when a woman does it. But thank you so much for this answer!

I like Bulma, Chi-Chi (who's my favorite of them all, lol), #18, and Videl. The Dragonball/Z women are all great, strong women!