The Blue Knight

Blue Exorcist => Blue Exorcist (Manga) => Topic started by: NeeNee on November 08, 2012, 09:04:40 PM

Title: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on November 08, 2012, 09:04:40 PM
Do you have any theories on Blue Exorcist that are weird or just plain ridiculous? Things that would be funny, but you don't believe could really happen? (And no, you cannot just describe the anime here.)

I'm actually having a hard time finding any lately, :-\ because nothing seems impossible anymore. Even my old (http://forums.mangafox.me/threads/270206-Crack-Theories?p=7667468&viewfull=1#post7667468) theory about a fanatic split-off group from the Order using robots to try and kill Rin doesn't sound so implausible anymore now that we know secret rebel groups are building advanced artificial gates.

Anyone else has any crazy theories to share?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: hijikata on November 17, 2012, 05:21:17 AM
BonRin is canon

I just want it to be canon in some sense

But otherwise I think you're right. I am having a really hard time thinking of anything.

I guess is seems like there is really any kind of possibility right now
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Anya on November 20, 2012, 06:13:31 PM
If it's a thread of dead theories then I remember I had one about missing kings of hell, when we didn't know most of them yet. I though it's possible they represent four elements and the other four is similar to four horsemen of the Apocalipse.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on January 25, 2013, 07:03:30 PM
I actually still like the idea that Shiemi's mom has hidden talents that will save the day at some point. I mean, they're living right there within the school in a place that normal people aren't allowed to access. There's gotta be something special about them aside from being decent gardeners.

Other crack theories:
- Angel is actually a double spy for Satan, he's just pretending to hate demons;
- Takara died some while ago without anyone noticing and is now a zombie;
- Lightning is the twin's father. He survived somehow, got himself a new face and became a high dude in the Order. No-one but the Grigori know who he is.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Paradox on January 25, 2013, 08:09:01 PM
I actually still like the idea that Shiemi's mom has hidden talents that will save the day at some point. I mean, they're living right there within the school in a place that normal people aren't allowed to access. There's gotta be something special about them aside from being decent gardeners.
Sounds nice. I wonder if she has an exorcist rank? She must be quite good at exorcist stuff.

Other crack theories:
- Takara died some while ago without anyone noticing and is now a zombie;
The Zombie Dude xD And according to Anya's theory the puppet is the demon and Takara the host. I like that one.

- Lightning is the twin's father. He survived somehow, got himself a new face and became a high dude in the Order. No-one but the Grigori know who he is.
I don't think so. I guess the real father has died and Lightning is the uncle. Or another theory: He is a demon because of the unusual bright eyes. I cherish the idea.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: VacuumTan on February 09, 2013, 11:15:00 AM
[I hate posting in old threads. Do you mind me doing that?]

I once posted this somewhere already, but at one point I made up the theory that Toudou is only eating the demons so he will get (physically) younger in order to look fifteen. Because we wants to be with Yukio forever and totally is no pedo. Because he LURRRRVS him. And one day he'll just confess his love, Yukio will reject him and he'll go batshit and destroy the world.

Mind you, I was half asleep and somewhat drunk when I came up with that.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Paradox on February 09, 2013, 12:23:36 PM
[I hate posting in old threads. Do you mind me doing that?]

I once posted this somewhere already, but at one point I made up the theory that Toudou is only eating the demons so he will get (physically) younger in order to look fifteen. Because we wants to be with Yukio forever and totally is no pedo. Because he LURRRRVS him. And one day he'll just confess his love, Yukio will reject him and he'll go batshit and destroy the world.

Mind you, I was half asleep and somewhat drunk when I came up with that.
And they all lived happily ever after. The end.

I've never found a fanart with Yukio/Toudou. Always Rin/Yukio, Yukio/Shura and so on. That's boring.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on February 09, 2013, 06:19:36 PM
[I hate posting in old threads. Do you mind me doing that?]

Not at all. Please go ahead. :)


I've never found a fanart with Yukio/Toudou. Always Rin/Yukio, Yukio/Shura and so on. That's boring.

Ask Justicecadet about it. She's drawn some... interesting stuff in the past. ::)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Dumb Dookie on February 10, 2013, 07:06:35 AM
Rin has smoked some radiactive mayonnaise and everything about demons is just a nice trip.

Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: VacuumTan on February 10, 2013, 09:47:58 AM
Rin has smoked some radiactive mayonnaise and everything about demons is just a nice trip.

That's the best theory I've ever come across. Especially the mayonnaise. Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like? ... Just askin'. °3°

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Blightstrider on February 10, 2013, 11:22:35 AM
Here's mine.

Satan isn't such a bad guy, but rather a sorely, misunderstood, tragic character; who ended up being the star-crossed lover of Rin's mother. Alas, fate deemed their love was never to be, as her over-assertive father turned their dreams to ash...

...

...

Oh wait.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Dumb Dookie on February 10, 2013, 04:01:58 PM
Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like? ... Just askin'. °3°

OMG. I did not know that was a 4chan meme and since I'm not english I was trying to translate and understand that sh*t. I hate you XD
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Jumping Jehosaphat on February 10, 2013, 07:11:02 PM


(click to show/hide)

That would make me so happy. I think that may be the only way to save it.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Paradox on February 12, 2013, 12:04:59 AM
I was trying to fall asleep when this theory came to my mind.

Satan has assaulted Yuri Egin sexually. He said he made the twins on a whim, right? Not because of love for Yuri. Besides his host (the unknown possessed man) was able to stand Satan's power for no more than 10 minutes.
How I met your mother - the whole series in 10 minutes...
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Jumping Jehosaphat on February 12, 2013, 04:33:04 AM
^
Erm, ew. That is weird to think about. Wham-bam!  So I guess Satan was ready to go as soon as he possessed a guy?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on February 12, 2013, 04:49:38 PM
If we assume that manga!Yuri was sane (unlike her anime counterpart), I think the rape theory is kind of a given. I mean, what kind of girl would willingly do a quicky with a guy who's spewing blue flames and losing body parts? Those are kind of alarming signs to an exorcist (or anyone, really).
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Wikkelsoee on February 12, 2013, 06:17:26 PM
Satan could have possessed the guy while he and Yuri were having sex. He wouldn't have had to possess the guy for so long that way. Shiro only lasted a few minutes. The father couldn't have been possessed much longer.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Jumping Jehosaphat on February 12, 2013, 06:31:27 PM
^ That is actually why I was having kind of a problem with it (as Shiro didn't last long). WOW, that is twisted, but actually makes a lot of sense; jumping in in the middle of it. However, I think I prefer Satan's host bleeding (and losing body parts?!?!) like crazy and jumping on the first woman he sees. What is wrong with me?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on February 12, 2013, 07:09:30 PM
Satan could have possessed the guy while he and Yuri were having sex. He wouldn't have had to possess the guy for so long that way. Shiro only lasted a few minutes. The father couldn't have been possessed much longer.

Still qualifies as rape to me. She agreed to have sex with the other guy, not with Satan.

And we don't really know how long Shiro would have lasted, do we? He killed himself before Satan was ready. The blood loss probably didn't help either.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: GolPhee on February 12, 2013, 08:25:31 PM
Which begs the question, who is Rin and Yukio's father? It'd be awesome if it was somehow a known character, but I can' think it would be since the host would surely have died after being possesed. I just hope the manga takes a less retarded option than the anime did.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on February 12, 2013, 08:45:14 PM
^ Good question. We have topics about Human family members (http://www.theblueknight.host-ed.me/forum/index.php/topic,62.0.html) and the name Okumura (http://www.theblueknight.host-ed.me/forum/index.php/topic,40.0.html), but not about their dad... I'm pretty sure he's dead though. Given what we know about Satan, it would be a pretty big twist is he wasn't.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: VacuumTan on February 14, 2013, 06:06:31 PM
Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like? ... Just askin'. °3°

OMG. I did not know that was a 4chan meme and since I'm not english I was trying to translate and understand that sh*t. I hate you XD

Hello friend. I love you, too.

Satan could have possessed the guy while he and Yuri were having sex. He wouldn't have had to possess the guy for so long that way. Shiro only lasted a few minutes. The father couldn't have been possessed much longer.

I know this might sound weird, but couldn't Satan technically just posess the sperm? Like, god-fueled power sperm [insert blue-rocket semen]. So that it would be Satan-sperm to reach the egg or something.

... There goes another crack-theory.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Jumping Jehosaphat on February 14, 2013, 06:15:45 PM
^
But wouldn't that be like Satan was possessing Rin's DNA instead? And that he was always there?!
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on February 14, 2013, 06:19:41 PM
^ Rin's powers were always there, weren't they? They were just being sealed into the sword.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Wikkelsoee on February 14, 2013, 06:20:16 PM
But Yukio said that Satan possessed a man, not sperm. Then again, I don't think you can say 'sperm' in a shounen manga, so maybe they just went with 'man' instead.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: GolPhee on February 19, 2013, 09:47:24 PM
Crack theory - Rin meets Jesus and has an epic son-of-Satan VS son-of-God battle :D

Hey, it could happen!
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Anya on February 23, 2013, 12:25:47 PM
^ That's an ultimate combo of epic AND crack.  ;D

I think demons are form of energy with no bodies and thus satan's part in Rin is his power only. Rin's looks and DNA are from human host and his tail and ears are modifications the power has on humans, including those who are possessed.

^ That's not crack, btw, it's a serious theory. :]
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: GolPhee on February 24, 2013, 09:29:24 PM
^ Hells yeah!

Hmm, well we know that Amaimon was warned by Mephisto not to expose too much of his power when he went all lizardy to beat up Rin, which suggests that he has a "true form" that he can only use in Gehena. Likewise one of the Question Corners in the manga revealed that Mephisto can turn into something other than a dog, implying that he also has a "true form".
It makes sense that the God of Earth would have a lizardy body, but I wonder what the other demon kings would look like. Maybe that's where Rin's ears and tail come from.

Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Paradox on May 20, 2013, 11:59:33 AM
If Rin dies (God forbid), he could transfer his soul/demon heart to Yukio's body. In other words Rin possesses his brother in a friendly way and - poof - Yukio turns into a demon.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on June 25, 2013, 12:02:26 AM
Come to think of it... Wasn't it stated around the beginning of the manga that Assiah and Gehena are like two sides of a mirror and it was illustrated with a two mirrors that showed the same doll with slight changes between them?

So, maybe everything that exists here, also exists there...

Of course! Shiro and Satan are actually the same person, only one is good and wants to protect his son, while the other is evil. Mephisto is Lightning's alter ego moved to earth, and Amaimon is Demon!Angel (I'm going by intelligence here ;D). Rin doesn't have a mirror version since he's already a fusion between human and demon, but Yukio has (remember those pics of Kazue's demon!Yukio, everyone? Yeah?).

You could easily build an alternate universe out of this...
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on June 25, 2013, 03:16:16 PM
I don't know if this is crack or not but... these pages:

(click to show/hide)

always gave me the impression that it was Mephisto who sent Uchusma towards Rin...

I mean, he shows a certain degree of surprise but I think it had to do with the way Rin used Uchusmas power, more than with the fact Uchusma popped up.

Second part of my crack idea: Uchusma never left Rin, he is still within the Kurikara and will pop up next time Rin needs an extra burst.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Paradox on June 25, 2013, 08:13:02 PM
Second part of my crack idea: Uchusma never left Rin, he is still within the Kurikara and will pop up next time Rin needs an extra burst.
That would be cool! But didn't Ucchasma say it leaves Rin now?
I also think, Karura is still inside Bon.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Chewy on June 26, 2013, 12:08:17 AM
Random theory my brother brought up while watching episode 15...
...He said he thinks Takara is Satan....
This is brilliant
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on June 26, 2013, 02:27:09 AM
Random theory my brother brought up while watching episode 15...
...He said he thinks Takara is Satan....
This is brilliant


Your brother and me must be connected... I thought the same, Satan or maybe another demon king?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Kristen_SK on June 26, 2013, 05:02:39 AM
Quote
Of course! Shiro and Satan are actually the same person, only one is good and wants to protect his son, while the other is evil. Mephisto is Lightning's alter ego moved to earth, and Amaimon is Demon!Angel (I'm going by intelligence here ;D).

Interesting, but if Gehenna and Assiah were always mirrored right down to their inhabitants, how would it work when demons live so much longer than humans?  I mean, we know Mephisto alone has been around at least 200 years.  With this theory would a new human counterpart for each demon come along in each generation?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on July 27, 2013, 07:13:37 PM
This wasn't even meant as a crack theory, but I just love it. xD

Quote from: Code Baccano; http://forums.mangafox.me/threads/284304-Official-Romance-Pairings-Discussion-Thread?p=12221146&viewfull=1#post12221146
I just hope it doesn't end with Rin and Yukio being the same person just spilt in 2 and they become one to defeat Satan making Shimei the default girl, I like the way Rinzumo is going I hope it doesn't get ruined.

Well, it would solve Shiemi's problems, wouldn't it? :P But yeah, pulling a stunt like that would put me off, too. And not because it would ruin the shipping.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on August 05, 2013, 04:34:18 AM
(I split off some of the posts here to make a thread about Mythology (http://www.theblueknight.host-ed.me/forum/index.php/topic,218.0.html).)


Another MF theory:

Quote from: applegiant1; http://forums.mangafox.me/threads/419455-Eight-Demon-Kings?p=12222704&viewfull=1#post12222704
am i the only one who thinks takara is the spirit king?

I think Takara being a Demon King is a bit much, though he could be an important demon. Then again, what would they want with Izumo? I don't believe the theory that she's a demon...
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: weazulgrl on August 06, 2013, 04:19:42 AM
here's something I came up with when my insomnia was acting up REALLY bad to the point I unsucessfully tried to drink myself to sleep and when that failed I decided to come up with extremely late night drunk crack theories...

this is copypasted from how I typed it up on tvtropes:
Quote
Pure crack theory here, but the thought came to me the other day... Okay, so we know that Rin has inherited Satan's powers, but imagine what if it was more than just Satan's powers Rin inherited? What if Satan had planned to create a vessel for him to exist in Assiah but the process resulted in him being born in Rin's body but no memory of before? After all, how much indication do we have that in the manga canon Satan has been directly involved with most of the events occurring after Rin and Yukio were born? Yes, I know we have Satan showing up in the opening chapter... but the theory I have deals with that, too. If this crack theory was correct the fact that Satan would essentially be missing would probably be something that would get covered up by the few that know, either out of loyalty or to manipulate the situation to their benefit (or both, after all, they are demons).

Now, it's implied that Satan did have other kids as some of what Amaimon says indicates he is one, and possible all of the Princes of Hell may be as well (that's assuming he's not speaking symbolically and that the title of Prince of Hell has to do with parentage instead of power), so why wouldn't any of Satan's other kids have any of his power while one of the kids he had with a human woman wind up with it? Everyone assumes that Rin and Yukio are fraternal twins instead of identical ones, but what if Satan had a plan to create a body that could allow him to exist in Assiah by getting a human woman pregnant and in the process of development the plan was to create identical twins but manipulate it so one was mostly human and the other being mostly demon, with that one being the one that would become his vessel.

Plans like that tend to be a bit more complicated than they seem however, and somehow Rin didn't wind up with any of the memories of his existence as Satan. Perhaps something about being shoved into the existence of a fetus had to do with it or the sealing of the blue flames after being born. Maybe it was even some other odd factor or a combination of factors, but somehow that happened. It's almost certain that Mephisto had a hand in sealing Rin's blue flames and we know he's a tricky, manipulative one, so what if he guessed what Satan's plan was as well. He's the type who would like to create a figurehead leader who he could manipulate so maybe he had an active hand in those memories not transferring, intentionally sealing them away in the Kurikara along with the blue flames.

And as for the whole incident where Satan possessed Shiro Fujimoto, perhaps the whole thing had as much to do with the seal on the sword weakening as much as it had and Rin's state of mind having found out he wasn't fully human as Shiro's reaction to Rin's words and the power and memories sealed in the Kurikara possessed him in their attempt to make the original plan work and awaken Rin/himself properly. And perhaps something in how the power was sealed in the Kurikara made Rin releasing it himself cause only the physical awakening without any of the memories awakening as well. Again, this could be by Mephisto's design, betting on the humanity he'd gained living without any knowledge of his past existence would cause him to draw the sword himself rather than have his awakening be forced by another power.

And as for Rin, there's the question on his personality in the case he was unknowingly Satan. Is his personality simply the result of living 15 years as a human or is there some of his original personality as Satan involved as well. If you go with the Satan as a fallen angel belief you could guess perhaps some of Rin's personality comes from how Satan was before his pride got the better of him and he was punished for it. And the question begs to be asked, if he ever gets his memories as Satan back which personality would be the most dominant one, the one of Satan, subduing the personality of Rin, or would his current personality be enough to affect his old one for the better.

Now there's the multiple possibilities in Mephisto's role in the whole thing. Did he know Satan's plans from the start? If so did Satan let him know or did he find out enough to make him guess what was going on. Does he want to create a Satan 2.0 to manipulate to his own whims, does he want to work it out so Satan is going to owe him one, or does he like Assiah enough to want to set it up so Gehenna is lead by someone who would be better at keeping demons in line (while being able to manipulate them to his own whims).
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on August 06, 2013, 05:42:29 AM
Remember that first chapter when Fujimoto gave Rin the mobile phone and told him there was only one number in it, that it was the number of a friend who would help him?

And then, after the funeral, Rin rings the number and Mephisto pops up and we all assume he was the friend Fujimoto was speaking about. But, in truth, none ever answered Rin's call.

So, I was thinking, what if it wasn't Mephisto's number in the phone? Sure he popped up right after Rin ringed and he was holding his mobile to his ear (if memory doesn't fail me) but so what? He is the freaking King of Time and Space and can freaking be in two places at the same time and not be seen if he doesn't want to, plus, there had been a funeral, so Fujimoto's death had already been reported so he knew Rin or Yukio would eventually have to go to him since he was the only other person who knew the secret.

Ok, I know what you are thinking, whose number could it have been if not Mephisto's?

I have come up with 3 options:

1 - Shura, she knew Yukio, and Fujimoto had already manifested his desire of her being the one to teach Rin how to handle Kurikara. Problem with this theory: Fujimoto and Shura weren't in talking terms so we don't know if he kept going with that plan after she refused.

2 - Tatsuma Suguro, he was really comprehensive about Rin being Satan's son (aka, he didn't give a shit and invited him to chop watermelon and talk about Bon being a jerk), he already knew Fujimoto and has knowledge of Kurikara.

3 - Someone we don't know (yet) and who never got to know of Fujimoto's will to have him take care of Rin and Yukio.

I mean, I have a hard time seeing Mephisto as a villain if Fujimoto deemed him a friend so I thought this.

Onto how Mephisto got the call instead of the intended person:

A) He changed the number in Fujimoto's phone to his own.

B) Killed the person intended to get the call (in option's 3 case) and took the phone.

C) Since Rin never gets to actually speak on the phone, maybe Mephisto was monitoring the line/was watching hiding somewhere and when he saw Rin dial the number he just appeared before the intended person answered the phone so Rin just hanged before the person answered.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on August 06, 2013, 05:45:13 AM
here's something I came up with when my insomnia was acting up REALLY bad to the point I unsucessfully tried to drink myself to sleep and when that failed I decided to come up with extremely late night drunk crack theories...

this is copypasted from how I typed it up on tvtropes:
Quote
Pure crack theory here, but the thought came to me the other day... Okay, so we know that Rin has inherited Satan's powers, but imagine what if it was more than just Satan's powers Rin inherited? What if Satan had planned to create a vessel for him to exist in Assiah but the process resulted in him being born in Rin's body but no memory of before? After all, how much indication do we have that in the manga canon Satan has been directly involved with most of the events occurring after Rin and Yukio were born? Yes, I know we have Satan showing up in the opening chapter... but the theory I have deals with that, too. If this crack theory was correct the fact that Satan would essentially be missing would probably be something that would get covered up by the few that know, either out of loyalty or to manipulate the situation to their benefit (or both, after all, they are demons).

Now, it's implied that Satan did have other kids as some of what Amaimon says indicates he is one, and possible all of the Princes of Hell may be as well (that's assuming he's not speaking symbolically and that the title of Prince of Hell has to do with parentage instead of power), so why wouldn't any of Satan's other kids have any of his power while one of the kids he had with a human woman wind up with it? Everyone assumes that Rin and Yukio are fraternal twins instead of identical ones, but what if Satan had a plan to create a body that could allow him to exist in Assiah by getting a human woman pregnant and in the process of development the plan was to create identical twins but manipulate it so one was mostly human and the other being mostly demon, with that one being the one that would become his vessel.

Plans like that tend to be a bit more complicated than they seem however, and somehow Rin didn't wind up with any of the memories of his existence as Satan. Perhaps something about being shoved into the existence of a fetus had to do with it or the sealing of the blue flames after being born. Maybe it was even some other odd factor or a combination of factors, but somehow that happened. It's almost certain that Mephisto had a hand in sealing Rin's blue flames and we know he's a tricky, manipulative one, so what if he guessed what Satan's plan was as well. He's the type who would like to create a figurehead leader who he could manipulate so maybe he had an active hand in those memories not transferring, intentionally sealing them away in the Kurikara along with the blue flames.

And as for the whole incident where Satan possessed Shiro Fujimoto, perhaps the whole thing had as much to do with the seal on the sword weakening as much as it had and Rin's state of mind having found out he wasn't fully human as Shiro's reaction to Rin's words and the power and memories sealed in the Kurikara possessed him in their attempt to make the original plan work and awaken Rin/himself properly. And perhaps something in how the power was sealed in the Kurikara made Rin releasing it himself cause only the physical awakening without any of the memories awakening as well. Again, this could be by Mephisto's design, betting on the humanity he'd gained living without any knowledge of his past existence would cause him to draw the sword himself rather than have his awakening be forced by another power.

And as for Rin, there's the question on his personality in the case he was unknowingly Satan. Is his personality simply the result of living 15 years as a human or is there some of his original personality as Satan involved as well. If you go with the Satan as a fallen angel belief you could guess perhaps some of Rin's personality comes from how Satan was before his pride got the better of him and he was punished for it. And the question begs to be asked, if he ever gets his memories as Satan back which personality would be the most dominant one, the one of Satan, subduing the personality of Rin, or would his current personality be enough to affect his old one for the better.

Now there's the multiple possibilities in Mephisto's role in the whole thing. Did he know Satan's plans from the start? If so did Satan let him know or did he find out enough to make him guess what was going on. Does he want to create a Satan 2.0 to manipulate to his own whims, does he want to work it out so Satan is going to owe him one, or does he like Assiah enough to want to set it up so Gehenna is lead by someone who would be better at keeping demons in line (while being able to manipulate them to his own whims).

You need to seriously fanfiction that. I need to read it XD

Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on August 06, 2013, 06:03:46 AM
Remember that first chapter when Fujimoto gave Rin the mobile phone and told him there was only one number in it, that it was the number of a friend who would help him?

And then, after the funeral, Rin rings the number and Mephisto pops up and we all assume he was the friend Fujimoto was speaking about. But, in truth, none ever answered Rin's call.

So, I was thinking, what if it wasn't Mephisto's number in the phone? Sure he popped up right after Rin ringed and he was holding his mobile to his ear (if memory doesn't fail me) but so what? He is the freaking King of Time and Space and can freaking be in two places at the same time and not be seen if he doesn't want to, plus, there had been a funeral, so Fujimoto's death had already been reported so he knew Rin or Yukio would eventually have to go to him since he was the only other person who knew the secret.

Wow. That's actually a really good theory. You're right, he never mentioned the name. :o

It would be a real shocker if Rin would try and use the phone later (I'm assuming he's still got it), and realise that the number in there isn't actually Mephisto's...

Also, I can't believe you found a way to make Mephisto seem ever creepier. xD
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: weazulgrl on August 06, 2013, 06:15:01 AM
here's something I came up with when my insomnia was acting up REALLY bad to the point I unsucessfully tried to drink myself to sleep and when that failed I decided to come up with extremely late night drunk crack theories...

this is copypasted from how I typed it up on tvtropes:
Quote
Pure crack theory here, but the thought came to me the other day... Okay, so we know that Rin has inherited Satan's powers, but imagine what if it was more than just Satan's powers Rin inherited? What if Satan had planned to create a vessel for him to exist in Assiah but the process resulted in him being born in Rin's body but no memory of before? After all, how much indication do we have that in the manga canon Satan has been directly involved with most of the events occurring after Rin and Yukio were born? Yes, I know we have Satan showing up in the opening chapter... but the theory I have deals with that, too. If this crack theory was correct the fact that Satan would essentially be missing would probably be something that would get covered up by the few that know, either out of loyalty or to manipulate the situation to their benefit (or both, after all, they are demons).

Now, it's implied that Satan did have other kids as some of what Amaimon says indicates he is one, and possible all of the Princes of Hell may be as well (that's assuming he's not speaking symbolically and that the title of Prince of Hell has to do with parentage instead of power), so why wouldn't any of Satan's other kids have any of his power while one of the kids he had with a human woman wind up with it? Everyone assumes that Rin and Yukio are fraternal twins instead of identical ones, but what if Satan had a plan to create a body that could allow him to exist in Assiah by getting a human woman pregnant and in the process of development the plan was to create identical twins but manipulate it so one was mostly human and the other being mostly demon, with that one being the one that would become his vessel.

Plans like that tend to be a bit more complicated than they seem however, and somehow Rin didn't wind up with any of the memories of his existence as Satan. Perhaps something about being shoved into the existence of a fetus had to do with it or the sealing of the blue flames after being born. Maybe it was even some other odd factor or a combination of factors, but somehow that happened. It's almost certain that Mephisto had a hand in sealing Rin's blue flames and we know he's a tricky, manipulative one, so what if he guessed what Satan's plan was as well. He's the type who would like to create a figurehead leader who he could manipulate so maybe he had an active hand in those memories not transferring, intentionally sealing them away in the Kurikara along with the blue flames.

And as for the whole incident where Satan possessed Shiro Fujimoto, perhaps the whole thing had as much to do with the seal on the sword weakening as much as it had and Rin's state of mind having found out he wasn't fully human as Shiro's reaction to Rin's words and the power and memories sealed in the Kurikara possessed him in their attempt to make the original plan work and awaken Rin/himself properly. And perhaps something in how the power was sealed in the Kurikara made Rin releasing it himself cause only the physical awakening without any of the memories awakening as well. Again, this could be by Mephisto's design, betting on the humanity he'd gained living without any knowledge of his past existence would cause him to draw the sword himself rather than have his awakening be forced by another power.

And as for Rin, there's the question on his personality in the case he was unknowingly Satan. Is his personality simply the result of living 15 years as a human or is there some of his original personality as Satan involved as well. If you go with the Satan as a fallen angel belief you could guess perhaps some of Rin's personality comes from how Satan was before his pride got the better of him and he was punished for it. And the question begs to be asked, if he ever gets his memories as Satan back which personality would be the most dominant one, the one of Satan, subduing the personality of Rin, or would his current personality be enough to affect his old one for the better.

Now there's the multiple possibilities in Mephisto's role in the whole thing. Did he know Satan's plans from the start? If so did Satan let him know or did he find out enough to make him guess what was going on. Does he want to create a Satan 2.0 to manipulate to his own whims, does he want to work it out so Satan is going to owe him one, or does he like Assiah enough to want to set it up so Gehenna is lead by someone who would be better at keeping demons in line (while being able to manipulate them to his own whims).

You need to seriously fanfiction that. I need to read it XD
I'd try, but I really don't think my writing skills at this point in time are up to writing something like that well enough to do it justice. if my skills weren't just working in spurts or I was at the level I was at before I was hospitalized with e. coli food poisoning (causing kidney failure and sepsis) I'd give it a try, but I'm still learning to compensate for the little changes to how my brain works when it comes to writing now. (at least I was lucky enough it's only smallish things got affected, shiga toxins produced by e. coli can sometimes cause noticeable brain damage.)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Anya on August 06, 2013, 05:00:14 PM
So, I was thinking, what if it wasn't Mephisto's number in the phone? Sure he popped up right after Rin ringed and he was holding his mobile to his ear (if memory doesn't fail me) but so what? He is the freaking King of Time and Space and can freaking be in two places at the same time and not be seen if he doesn't want to, plus, there had been a funeral, so Fujimoto's death had already been reported so he knew Rin or Yukio would eventually have to go to him since he was the only other person who knew the secret.
I love this theory!! It's not necessarily true but super interesting anyway... so many possibilities.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Wikkelsoee on August 06, 2013, 05:10:01 PM
^ But still, many of us have wondered why Shiro would trust him. He doesn't seem like a person/demon you'd entrust your life to.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on August 06, 2013, 11:07:01 PM
^ Or your kid's life.

On the other hand, Mephisto is almost certainly the one who sealed Rin's powers, and Shiro had no problem sending Yukio there. So he must have trusted him at least somewhat.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: doubleS on August 10, 2013, 10:41:18 PM
So, I was thinking, what if it wasn't Mephisto's number in the phone? Sure he popped up right after Rin ringed and he was holding his mobile to his ear (if memory doesn't fail me) but so what? He is the freaking King of Time and Space and can freaking be in two places at the same time and not be seen if he doesn't want to, plus, there had been a funeral, so Fujimoto's death had already been reported so he knew Rin or Yukio would eventually have to go to him since he was the only other person who knew the secret.

YES I really like this idea. It'd be even bigger plottwist than Renzo being a spy, I guess? Because wow.

By the way I found this and I couldn't resist posting under this crack theory
http://claudinsky.tumblr.com/post/7456704092/
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Paradox on September 03, 2013, 10:05:21 AM
I will remove the spoiler when the (Viz) translation is out.
Chap 49 spoiler:


Can I flash a little on why Rin's name means Lucifer?

What if, Lucifer is the only demon king who inherited Satan's flames?

What if "cake is a lie" and Rin is actually Lucifer's son? (Lucy seems able to not destroy his human host and, if he is a Demon King, may be a son of him could actually host Satan).
Assuming that's true, then Lucy could be the guy who looked through Yukio's blue eyes.

In case Satan isn't the father, maybe he, Satan, should make a paternity test. Yuri loves demons so much, she slept with two of them. And that's why Yuri named Rin (aka Lucifer) after his father because she loves Lucy.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: weazulgrl on September 03, 2013, 08:06:26 PM
I will remove the spoiler when the (Viz) translation is out.
Chap 49 spoiler:
(click to show/hide)
it is of note that...
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: BlueFan on September 05, 2013, 09:46:14 PM
In this last chapter that was that mention about the seraph and that got me thinking about the angels and god stuff that ao no exorcist currently doesn't have but I caught myself thinking if the aria use biblical recites and stuff like that it means that it's power comes from something, would that something be god or a thing like that? (sorry my english)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on September 05, 2013, 11:55:00 PM
In this last chapter that was that mention about the seraph and that got me thinking about the angels and god stuff that ao no exorcist currently doesn't have but I caught myself thinking if the aria use biblical recites and stuff like that it means that it's power comes from something, would that something be god or a thing like that? (sorry my english)

The thing is, Ucchussma kind of lumped every supernatural being in same box:

(click to show/hide)

Also, we know really little about fatal verses, just that each demon has a certain phrase they cannot tolerate hearing. Also, not only biblical quotes are used, arias chant sutras and mantras, too.

Kazue seems to be going with an "all religions are true" theme, an almighty God doesn't really work with it. Plus, the Seraph was identified as a subordinate of a Demon King.

it is of note that...
(click to show/hide)
[/quote]

Well...
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on September 06, 2013, 01:08:45 AM
^ Yeah, she said so in the 'early sketches' extras (http://www.theblueknight.host-ed.me/forum/index.php/topic,117.msg3807.html#msg3807). But she also said that it didn't make sense because 'the one is using fire, but the other is named Rin', so there must be a link with fire somewhere.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on September 10, 2013, 02:42:17 AM
Ok, so I was asking chaotickairos why she used "karma" instead of "responsibility" here:

Quote
When chaotickairos first translated the chapter he wrote:

Quote
Lucifer: Why must we continue to exist, burdened by karma and suffering? This world is not as strong as you. It is filled with the weak.

Then,  chinonamida  translated:

Quote
Luficer: why is it, we must maintain this state of existence while shouldering such responsibilities and pain. in this world, there is not only beings as powerful as you. there is many weak beings also.

Then Viz went along the lines of Chino.

So, I wanted to ask, is there any reason why Chaotic chose "karma" and Chino chose "responsibilities"? Something to do with the kanji and the furigana may be?

and she answered:


Hi there! First of all, I am a girl, just so you know.
With that translation, the raws used this kanji, 業, gou. According to the dictionary we used, it was translated as karma. At first, I thought we might have mistranslated, (My sister translated this page, so I was unsure.) but I checked as many online kanji dictionaries, and they all gave me the reading karma. It probably has to do with word choice and what sounds better, but I'll concede to the other versions, as they probably know more about what they're doing than we do.

So, according to the article about Karma in Buddhism from Wikipedia, indeed, that's how Japanese write "karma" so I think I will take it as a valid alternative and develop from there one of my crazy links that lead to nowhere but are fun to write (and I hope to read, too).

Ok, a long time ago, I found that the symbol in the students' ties, some characters' emblems and the school's crest might be a "Sacred Seed" that correspond to the Tibetan Buda of Compassion Tara: http://www.theblueknight.host-ed.me/forum/index.php/topic,218.msg4971.html#msg4971

As you know, Tibetan Buddhism is influenced by Taoism.

Now, I want to remark some of Lucy's words about his goal:

(http://s10.postimg.org/3ry5r10fd/image.png)

Now, I shall introduce you to the creation myth of Taoism:

Quote
'Before the world came into being there existed only the Cosmic Egg that floated unchanging in the Void for untold ages. Yin and Yang was the Egg, opposites perfectly mingled. And it was because they were perfectly mingled that the world could not yet be.

'Then within the Egg was born P'an Ku, the primordial man who slowly grew and grew until the Egg felt too cramped for him. Impatiently he stretched out his limbs and his hand closed about an axe, coming from whence no one knows. Striking with all his might, P'an Ku split the shell of the Egg and burst free.

'He then began to fashion the material of Chaos, separating Yin and Yang into sky and earth, in which he was aided by the four most fortunate creatures who had emerged from the Egg with him: the Unicorn, the Dragon, the Phoenix and the Tortoise. They were engaged in this labour for 18,000 years and each day P'an Ku grew ten feet, using his own body as a pillar to force heaven and earth apart.

'When the separation was complete and they had settled in their places, P'an Ku died. His breath became the wind and clouds, his eyes became the sun and moon. His stomach, head and limbs became the principal mountains of the world, watered by the rivers of his sweat and tears; his flesh became the fertile soil and his hair the plants and trees which took root in it. The fleas on his body became the human race. Then P'an Ku drifted in space for a further 18,000 years before entering a holy virgin as a ray of light and being born into the world by her as Tien-Tsun, the First Cause.'

Now, let's remember what Fujimoto said about Gehena and Asshia being mirrored worlds:

(http://s21.postimg.org/3lyf3lvqv/ao_no_exorcist_632405.jpg)

Now, I will take a moment to clarify the concept of Yin and Yang (because no, it's not about good vs evil):

Quote
Yang is the white side with the black dot on it, and yin is the black side with the white dot on it.

The relationship between yin and yang is often described in terms of sunlight playing over a mountain and a valley.

Yin (literally the 'shady place' or 'north slope') is the dark area occluded by the mountain's bulk, while yang (literally the 'sunny place' or 'south slope') is the brightly lit portion. As the sun moves across the sky, yin and yang gradually trade places with each other, revealing what was obscured and obscuring what was revealed.

Yin is characterized as slow, soft, yielding, diffuse, cold, wet, and passive; and is associated with water, earth, the moon, femininity and nighttime.

Yang, by contrast, is fast, hard, solid, focused, hot, dry, and aggressive; and is associated with fire, sky, the sun, masculinity and daytime.

Ok, now I will remark and aspect of Tara's figure in Taoism:

Quote
Tārā is also known as a saviouress, as a heavenly deity who hears the cries of beings experiencing misery in samsara.

Samsara, for those not familiar with he term:

Quote
Within Buddhism, samsara is defined as the continual repetitive cycle of birth and death that arises from ordinary beings' grasping and fixating on a self and experiences. Specifically, samsara refers to the process of cycling through one rebirth after another within the six realms of existence, where each realm can be understood as either a physical realm or a psychological state characterized by a particular type of suffering. Samsara arises out of avidya (ignorance) and is characterized by dukkha (suffering, anxiety, dissatisfaction). In the Buddhist view, liberation from samsara is possible by following the Buddhist path.

Ok, if we remember, in the "Mad Ravings of Mephisto", he speaks about the human desire for knowledge.

The cycle of rebirth of Samsara is linked with ignorance.

Budhism links suffering to desire and many of its teachings are about getting rid of material desire (Mephisto names three desires that drive humans: material, sexual and knowledge).

So, my theory is this:

Gehena would be the Yin (because of how demons are often weaker on daylight and also because of the peak we got when Rin fought Amaimon, the place looked rather dark).

Asshia would be the Yang, then.

Lucy wants to go back tot he beginning, to the cosmic egg, when Yin and Yang were mixed.

Mephisto doesn't like that idea, because that would mean no humans, nothing of the shit he likes then. Or, maybe it has to do with what he said in "The Mad Ravings..." about him not knowing it all, too, and how there are many answers that have scaped him so far. And how he predicted that the desire for knowledge would end up being what would b the only thing to keep people fighting later on.

The Tara Seed all over the Academy would them have to do with some Mephisto approach of the Samsara cycle.

It's also on the Kurikara's sheath:

http://i38.mangareader.net/ao-no-exorcist/1/ao-no-exorcist-632409.jpg

Which reminds me of Mephisto's bet on Rin turning out either into a Demon King or a Saviour for Asshia.

And, remember that Uchussma said Rin would eventually have to choose between being human or being a demon, that kind of could be linked to the idea of Yin and Yang having to exist separated.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on September 29, 2013, 05:12:00 AM
I have this gut feeling Yuri Egin didn't die at child birth and didn't never really intent to abandon Yukio and Rin...
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Midori no Neko on September 29, 2013, 05:54:39 AM
What if tamers all had trace amounts of demon blood, and that's what gives them thier ability? It would make sense, as summoning ability has been lightly suggested to be hereditary as well.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on October 04, 2013, 11:43:33 PM
This is so Crack I don't even...

Ok... here I go...

What if Takara is a girl?

I mean, in the early manga sketches he is a girl:

(click to show/hide)

Then, when Kazue made the genderbends for the exwires, she genderbent everyone in the class at the time, but Nemu:

(click to show/hide)

And let's not forget his excuse not to wear a swimsuit:

(http://i.imgur.com/iAC6cvr.jpg)

I also feel he pulled the girl's uniform better than most of the guys:

(http://i.imgur.com/iEWh2AN.jpg)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: chinonamida on October 05, 2013, 01:15:20 AM
^and Nemu is a female name.

but I don't know what that would accomplish.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on October 05, 2013, 01:19:13 AM
Comedic relief when they found out? Like with the ghost?

I dunno, I will wait for what concept of miko is Kazue going to manage because that's what I was thinking about when I came up with this...
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: chinonamida on October 05, 2013, 01:48:09 AM
^they already did it with yamada. and people didn't react so much.

If nemu turned out to be a girl, I don't think anyone would care. both characters and readers.

(click to show/hide)

btw, thanks for this sketch. I haven't seen it.

I like the apathetic girl with messy hair and uneven socks.
but the guy behind the female version of takara looks . . . almost like he's a male version of shiemi. maybe that's her brother.
and I don't want to know why she has a bird on her head
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on October 05, 2013, 02:02:10 AM
You should actually thank  Kristen_SK who posted it on the Early Manga Scketches Thread:

http://www.theblueknight.host-ed.me/forum/index.php/topic,117.0.html

I dunno, Yamada/Shura was different.

It was really early in the story and I think "Yamada" had had like one dialogue (ok, not even a dialogue, he threw a one liner to Bon if I'm not wrong).

With Takara, even if it has been really recent, we have had him do some little stuff and well... we have known him for for a while longer than Yamada...

Well, whatever, it's not important really, just a though that came out of the top of my head while I was studying for a mid-term (which I will totally fail).
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: chinonamida on October 05, 2013, 03:10:46 AM
^ah? then thanks Kristen_SK.


even if I dont see why, I agree takara could be a girl.
. . . takara still doesnt have a character profil, right?

wait. koneko said takara was the son of the president of a toy company.
玩具会社「宝ホビー」の社長子息でもある。

if koneko is right, that settles it.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on October 05, 2013, 11:09:58 AM
I think that was Bon...

Maybe the Takara family is open minded?

Or maybe this Nemu isn't really Nemu but just impersonating the son of the Takara family... I dunno if that makes any sense at all...
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Midori no Neko on October 10, 2013, 02:47:06 AM
I think katou is waiting to pull the takara-is-really-a-girl gag until the gang starts to get to know him a little better, or at least after he gets more screen time.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Isis-Lied on October 20, 2013, 01:16:58 AM
Hey guys, just wanted to put in my two cents and talk about my greatest crack theories XD This is my first post so please be gentle if it sounds absolutely ridiculous (but this is a crack theory thread so I guess it's going to be, lol)

Ok, theory #1
Shiro was paladin, right? And I can't remember if it was actually stated in the manga, but he probably had every single meister class(dragoon, aria, doctor, tamer, etc.)... I think. Anyway, what if Mephisto was his summon/made some sort of contract w/ him (he is based off of the demon in Goethe legend anyhow, Mephistopheles)? Shiro was paladin and if Mephy would respect anyone/allow anyone to control him, it would be Shiro. So perhaps part of their contract was that if anything happened to Shiro, Mephisto would have to take care of the twins. It's pure crack but the idea amuses me :P

And theory #2 (which is 10x crackier than the first)
deals w/ Chapter 49. Or, to be more specific, Lucifer.
What if he's an alternative!timeline Rin? I mean, come on, their names almost translate equally. What if Rin was supposed to fall into the Gehenna gate in chapter 1? So Mephisto being Mephisto, we know he can alter time and space. And it's pretty obvious he doesn't have the best relationship w/ Satan (I don't remember what chapter it was, but I distinctly remember Mephisto calling himself a 'prodigal son'). What better way to screw w/ his father's plan than to mess w/ the timeline and cause him to lose his vessel? Now, Satan can't have two Rins running around, one will eventually kill the other; but, he can barely last more than a few minutes in Assiah. For Mephisto, it's a wonderful way to rebel, especially if he wants to keep his head.
Now, more reasons why I think this theory, while completely cracky, holds some substance:

1) Lucifer's hair color.
It seems like Gehenna can really mess w/ hair colors (or demons have some strange genes). It wouldn't surprise me if the atmosphere in Gehenna is half the reason the Demon Kings we've seen have such strange hair colors. Lucifer's hair looks light, perhaps even white, and perhaps the atmosphere of Gehenna bleached Rin's hair.

2) Being the King of Light
It's a little odd, right, that Light would beat someone who can manipulate time and space? Well, we've been told that Rin is the only one to have inherited Satan's blue flames. And they are probably the strongest power in Gehenna. So maybe light= blue flames.

3) His interest in Rin
It's clear that kings like Amaimon care little about Rin. At first, he thought Rin was completely boring. He couldn't understand why Mephisto cared so much for Rin. So why would Lucifer, who Mephisto addresses as older brother (either as a guise or kind of like a title-- recognizing that Lucifer is stronger than him), care about someone like Rin? Even if he has inherited blue flames, he's still a small fry in comparison to the rest of the demon kings. Lucifer only addresses Mephisto and Rin, telling only them to 'come to his side.' Besides, it sounds like he's doing all of this to help Satan. Which, wouldn't be too surprising, given that we don't know how time works in Gehenna. After a while, he could have given up and came up w/ an idea to merge Assiah and Gehenna instead, as a way to appease his father and let him keep his conscience (i.e., Satan throws away his original idea to use his body to take over Assiah).

4) His injuries
It seems that Lucifer can't keep one body for too long. It could be that Rin's demon heart has fused w/ his body (Satan probably forced it) and destroyed his original body because of it. However, his power has increased because of it, becoming similar to Satan. That's why his body looks like it's being burned and why he needs to continue searching for a host, one that can manage his flames.

5) Finally, his mannerisms
Mephisto called keeping your tail and heart hidden 'demon etiquette,' assuming that most high level demons would follow this rule. But, Lucifer doesn't. He's the first Demon King to be shown w/ his tail out. Now, it could just be arrogance, but his tail looks so similar to Rin's. It's like they're body opposites. Whether this is coincidence or not remains to be seen. Now, this idea will probably be quickly disproved the moment we learn more about Lucifer, but until then I'll continue to think it could happen... someday XD

Wow, that was a lot. I hope it made some sense ^^'
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: chinonamida on October 20, 2013, 07:34:52 AM
And theory #2 (which is 10x crackier than the first)
deals w/ Chapter 49. Or, to be more specific, Lucifer.
What if he's an alternative!timeline Rin? I mean, come on, their names almost translate equally. What if Rin was supposed to fall into the Gehenna gate in chapter 1? So Mephisto being Mephisto, we know he can alter time and space. And it's pretty obvious he doesn't have the best relationship w/ Satan (I don't remember what chapter it was, but I distinctly remember Mephisto calling himself a 'prodigal son'). What better way to screw w/ his father's plan than to mess w/ the timeline and cause him to lose his vessel? Now, Satan can't have two Rins running around, one will eventually kill the other; but, he can barely last more than a few minutes in Assiah. For Mephisto, it's a wonderful way to rebel, especially if he wants to keep his head.
Now, more reasons why I think this theory, while completely cracky, holds some substance:

1) Lucifer's hair color.
It seems like Gehenna can really mess w/ hair colors (or demons have some strange genes). It wouldn't surprise me if the atmosphere in Gehenna is half the reason the Demon Kings we've seen have such strange hair colors. Lucifer's hair looks light, perhaps even white, and perhaps the atmosphere of Gehenna bleached Rin's hair.

2) Being the King of Light
It's a little odd, right, that Light would beat someone who can manipulate time and space? Well, we've been told that Rin is the only one to have inherited Satan's blue flames. And they are probably the strongest power in Gehenna. So maybe light= blue flames.

3) His interest in Rin
It's clear that kings like Amaimon care little about Rin. At first, he thought Rin was completely boring. He couldn't understand why Mephisto cared so much for Rin. So why would Lucifer, who Mephisto addresses as older brother (either as a guise or kind of like a title-- recognizing that Lucifer is stronger than him), care about someone like Rin? Even if he has inherited blue flames, he's still a small fry in comparison to the rest of the demon kings. Lucifer only addresses Mephisto and Rin, telling only them to 'come to his side.' Besides, it sounds like he's doing all of this to help Satan. Which, wouldn't be too surprising, given that we don't know how time works in Gehenna. After a while, he could have given up and came up w/ an idea to merge Assiah and Gehenna instead, as a way to appease his father and let him keep his conscience (i.e., Satan throws away his original idea to use his body to take over Assiah).

4) His injuries
It seems that Lucifer can't keep one body for too long. It could be that Rin's demon heart has fused w/ his body (Satan probably forced it) and destroyed his original body because of it. However, his power has increased because of it, becoming similar to Satan. That's why his body looks like it's being burned and why he needs to continue searching for a host, one that can manage his flames.

5) Finally, his mannerisms
Mephisto called keeping your tail and heart hidden 'demon etiquette,' assuming that most high level demons would follow this rule. But, Lucifer doesn't. He's the first Demon King to be shown w/ his tail out. Now, it could just be arrogance, but his tail looks so similar to Rin's. It's like they're body opposites. Whether this is coincidence or not remains to be seen. Now, this idea will probably be quickly disproved the moment we learn more about Lucifer, but until then I'll continue to think it could happen... someday XD

Wow, that was a lot. I hope it made some sense ^^'

It's nice, but there's contradictions.

You say Mephisto could have messed with the timeline and caused Satan to lose his vessel.
Then, you say Satan can't have two Rins running around, because one will eventually kill the other.
But if theres two rin, then satan didnt lose his vessel.

Also you say Satan probably forced Rin's demon heart to fused with his body to make him more powerful. But why would he do that? If he does, he cant use rin's body as a vessel. (If it even works, that is.)
Later, you say its rin's plan instead. That, to make Satan throws away his original idea to use his body as a vessel to take over Assiah, he came up with the idea to merge Assiah and Gehenna.
But, you'd agree, rin had no way to came up with a plan like that right after being taken to Gehenna. So it would mean Satan, for some reasons, had or decided to wait before using rin's body as his vessel and in the meantime, somehow, rin managed to learn enough stuff to come up with the plan and convince Satan it was best.
. . . Or maybe it didnt worked. Maybe Satan couldnt use rin's body. So thats why he or Rin eventually came up with plan b. then it would somewhat work.



A few other things.

You say that we don't know how time works in Gehenna. But surprisingly, we do. Theres a scene in the chapter "demons' etiquette" where Mephisto is making instant ramen and brings Rin to Gehenna for 5 minutes, the time the ramen cooks, and goes back to Assiah in time to eat them.

You say why someone as strong as Lucifer would care about Rin if even Amaimon didnt. But then, why would Mephisto care about Rin if Amaimon didnt.
Because its not about strenght, but insight, I believe.

Finally, I dont think light could equal blue flames. Because theres demons like seraphin who are kin to the king of light and they seem to use light.
If light = blue flames, then it means all these demons can use blue flames.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Isis-Lied on October 20, 2013, 11:14:32 AM
Whoops, I messed up my own explanation XD

What I meant was that, to a degree, Satan would help Rin hone/control his flames. I mean, he probably doesn't know for sure that Rin's body will work. Sometime during Rin's training either a) he accidentally burns/kills his human body (or Satan tries and kills the body himself) and takes on a different host, escaping to Assiah (we don't know how long Lucifer can keep a body until it becomes virtually unusable) and formulating a plan there, where Satan can't touch him or b) His training could take a while, and during that time Rin develops a plan that will let him keep his conscience (odds are, after taking over his body, Satan would destroy his human soul). Perhaps he even heard from Satan himself that Assiah and Gehenna were originally one universe, fueling his idea.

Second, about Mephisto. He's immediately interested in current!Rin because he's the one who messed with the timeline. We don't know Mephisto's true motives, but we do know he wants to keep Rin alive for his plan. I always thought that Mephisto was using current!Rin to both take out Lucifer and Satan, allowing him to usurp the throne. And after caring for Rin/helping him all this time, he could easily surprise and kill him, leaving Mephisto as the strongest being in both Gehenna and Assiah.

So, time in Gehenna. True, it was for five minutes that Rin and Mephy were in Gehenna, but, once again, Mephy can mess w/ time. He could have made it so time in Gehenna= time in Assiah. Or, it could be a lie. Mephisto himself states that he can't close a Gehenna gate/create one. And from what we know, a demon can pass from Assiah to Gehenna from either a) going through a Gehenna gate or b) dying/losing their host and having their soul/conscience sent back to Gehenna. But who knows; Mephisto could have a secret way of getting in to Gehenna. I just didn't feel like that was Gehenna at all, granted that we only saw Amaimon and no other demons (a bit strange, given that there seem to be many in Assiah and exorcists are sending them straight back to Gehenna all the time).

Finally, about Lucifer's power over light. We don't know how Demon Kings get their titles or even the powers that Satan has. But, perhaps since the flames do give out a lot of light, Rin could also be given that title. It sounds a bit better than 'king of blue flames' imo. Not to mention that it plays w/ Lucifer's biblical past and fits for what happened to him in this theory (Rin 'fell' from Assiah (Heaven) and ended up in Gehenna (Hell)). As for his familiars, it could be that there were always those demons to begin w/ and Rin/Lucifer is the only one who can control them. Because right now, current!Rin has only been able to control weak-level demons. We also haven't gotten to see him interact w/ any of the Light demons.

So yep ^^' I know it's ridiculous but I've always liked the thought of characters having to fight their own inner demons; it would just be interesting if Rin had to fight a personified version of all the darkness inside him.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: chinonamida on October 20, 2013, 01:22:42 PM
^I see

Mephisto himself states that he can't close a Gehenna gate/create one. And from what we know, a demon can pass from Assiah to Gehenna from either a) going through a Gehenna gate or b) dying/losing their host and having their soul/conscience sent back to Gehenna. But who knows; Mephisto could have a secret way of getting in to Gehenna.
Phantom trains (http://www.theblueknight.host-ed.me/forum/index.php/topic,230.0.html) can travel between Gehenna and Assiah. So it would make sense Mephisto himself can do it as well.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Isis-Lied on October 20, 2013, 04:04:40 PM
Lol, I totally forgot about those trains. Now I wonder why Gehenna gates are so important if there are demons who can go around that rule. I guess it's just that the gates are easier to use/provide faster access to Assiah and can have many demons travel through it at a time. Imagine if every demon had to wait their turn to go to Assiah; I could just picture some cracktastic scene w/ all these scary looking demons waiting begrudgingly in line and like pushing and shoving each other to get to Assiah XD
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on October 20, 2013, 06:32:42 PM
I think there is a Gehenna Gate topic floating around somewhere. Yeah, the Gehenna Gate is more for dragging "possessed" humans and half demons into Gehenna without discarding their human body. Satan can also only make it when he is in Assiah.

That artificial one must be to unite the worlds somehow.

Maybe Satan can make an Assiah Gate from Gehenna, and it can be used from both worlds. That is how Amaimon gets back and forth between Gehenna and Assiah without ever leaving his host.

Maybe he has hundreds of Assiah gates and that IS how demons get into Assiah after all.

Maybe I should write to Kazue about this...
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on November 03, 2013, 01:19:39 AM
I'm so sorry, this is gonna be long.

Part 1: People wanting to live in the suspicious complex near the shrine.

(click to show/hide)

That people sound like the "lotus-eaters" from the Odisey. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus-eaters )

So I was thinking if maybe the food was contaminated with some kind of fungus which affects the functioning of the brain/nervous system? Like the one that caused the Salem Witch Trials ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_and_psychological_explanations_of_bewitchment ). Or the one that takes over spiders nervous system ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cordyceps ) and ants ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophiocordyceps_unilateralis ).

So then I was thinking, whose pets are the Illuminati really fond of setting free and happen to spread through spores and be really infective? Astharot's.

Because so far I wondered what Astharot thought of the Illuminati using his pets, and now I think he might very well be agreeing.

Part 2: What happened 5 years ago.

(click to show/hide)

From what little we have seen of Izumo's past, her mother was possessed, taken by the Illuminati and used as Lucifer's host.

I would say the fox is speaking about this.

I think he is gonna tell about how Izumo came to meet the Illuminati and the deal she made with them to protect her sister.

Part 3: Who is Izumo.

(click to show/hide)

The fox is a bit wary about speaking about Izumo.

Shima refers to her as an important daughter. Not simply important to the plan. She is important as a daughter, so this is why I think Izumo's ascendency is the key.

I have argued many times why I think, based on her physical traits, that she has demonic blood.

Foxes are the messengers of Inari and the protectors of Inari Shrines. The Kamiki family was likely in charge of the Inari Grand Shrine, which is the main shrine dedicated to Inari.

What I think is that the Kamiki family are not simply mikos who intervene between people and Inari, but are descendants of Inari herself.

I also wanna note these foxes seem to have their own ranking system.

Part 4: Gehena and Assiah separation

Lucy kind of said Assiah and Gehena used to be one and that he wants to make it be that way again.

Mephisto questioned why Gehena and Assiah were the way they were.

So, it's time to mix religions!

Satan is called the "god of demons" and said to have created them. This always bothered me because how the hell is a half human gonna beat him? Also, if he is a god, his other full demon sons should be gods too.

However, after following the family tress of Japanese deities for generations, I came to notice something: in Shinto, the distinction between "kami" (what would be gods) and humans is very blurry. For example, the first emperor of Japan is considered to be Amateratsu's grandson (the Sun goddess), Susanoo is said to marry a princess from earth but this doesn't make his sons any less of gods than him... and I could go on... Plus let's not forget the custom in Shinto of enshrining deceased people who were important historical figures. And that there is a legend where Amateratsu and Susanoo literally grow gods out of the palms of their hands... Uff, Amateratsu and Susanoo were born from dirty water coming out of the eye of another god.

So what I was thinking is, this whole thing of Gehena and Assiah being unable to interact, the fact a Gehena Gate seems to be a portal for things from Assiah to go to and come from Gehena but not the other way around, that the most powerful demon who rules Gehena can't take over anything on Assiah without reducing it to ashes...  seems a bit more convenient for humans than for demons.

And I think the reason is because the division was actually made to stop Satan, Gehena would be Satan's prison.

Going back to Uchussma's words about demons, angels and gods being all the same. In Shinto, "kami" is practically everything, you have distinctions about yokais and stuff but the line is practically non-existent and most yokais can be understood as minor kamis.

Now the question is, how did this happen?

I think originally, it was just Assiah, with all the gods roaming around humans happily until it got into Satan's mind that he wanted to be "the boss"  and waged war against the others. And so of course, some of the "kami" followed him and when the ones that opposed him saw they couldn't beat him, they made the division with Gehena and caged him with his followers there.

The "kamis" that stayed in Assiah became what is called "gods" and the "kamis" that were left in Gehena became what exorcist call "demons".

This would be akin to the Hebrew myth on how Satan fell from Heaven.

Part 5: Tamers

So then, tamers wouldn't be simple half demons but direct descendants of the kamis that stayed on Assiah and that's why they are so rare.

Going with this, I would say Shura descends from Susanoo since she seems to have the sword he used to kill the Orochi Serpent.

Part 6: On how Astharot and Lucifer took over the Grand Shrine

If the Kamikis are direct descendants of Inari, chances are that they didn't intervene between Inari and the people but they were actually the ones to use their powers to help with the harvest.

Astharot would have unleashed his power causing disease in the area beyond what Tama could fight. This caused Tama to fall in the spiral of despair we saw her in Izumo's dream in Chapter 50 and making it possible for Lucifer to take over her body.

Then, the Illuminati slowly took over the Grand Shrine in the absence of its main leader and polluted the food which leads to part 1 of this theory.

Part 7: Izumo's deal with the Illuminati

This way, not solely Tama and Tsukumo are threatened by the Illuminati but also the whole town.

It also would explain why Izumo hates her mother and says it was all her fault, she blames her because she was unable to fight Astharot.

I would also think that, even if she kept her plans of sacrificing herself to save Tsukumo from Paku, Paku knows her well enough and suspected. That's why she tried to follow her into Cram School and told Shiemi that it was very important to save Izumo and to call if anything happened.

Also, the Illuminati may want Izumo because, as a descendant of the kamis that sealed Satan away, she might be key to undo the border between Gehena and Assiah.

Part 8: Who ranks under Amaimon

I would say it's Astharot.

Mephisto said it was a dishonour for the King under Amaimon to have him above him.

Maybe Astharot is physically weaker than Amaimon, but his ability is much more destructive and a natural enemy of Amaimon's kin (greenmans and such).
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Midori no Neko on November 03, 2013, 01:44:14 AM
wow O_O thts good
one thing though
Quote
Gehena Gate seems to be a portal for things from Assiah to go to and come from Gehena but not the other way around
Are you saying that demons cant come into Assiah using a Gehena gate? 'cause the artificial Gehena gate doesn't seem to be following that rule.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on November 03, 2013, 01:54:58 AM
wow O_O thts good
one thing though
Quote
Gehena Gate seems to be a portal for things from Assiah to go to and come from Gehena but not the other way around
Are you saying that demons cant come into Assiah using a Gehena gate? 'cause the artificial Gehena gate doesn't seem to be following that rule.
They come but still vias a host.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on November 03, 2013, 02:32:42 AM
That theory was freaking magnificent *¬*
I actually think a lot of that is gunna come true, or is going to be similar.
Epic thinking, Archer!!!
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Midori no Neko on November 03, 2013, 02:57:23 AM
Quote
They come but still vias a host.
Ah, right. But I wonder if its even possible for demons to exist without a host in Assiah. Like you said, when Satan was sealed the bad demons were forced into Gehena and could only get back using hosts. But all demons need hosts, so that means all demons were banished, even the good ones. Thats a hole in your theory. I think there was no distinction between good and bad demons when the divide happened: I think when Satan rose to power, all demons were lumped in with him, and human exorcists banished all demons to Gehena, starting the dimensional fued we know today as humans vs demons.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on November 03, 2013, 03:10:21 AM
For the record, Crack Theories is for theories that are very far-stretched/ridiculous and unlikely to come true. If you have a theory you think might actually happen, feel free to make a new thread about it. :)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on November 03, 2013, 03:17:50 AM
Ah, right. But I wonder if its even possible for demons to exist without a host in Assiah. Like you said, when Satan was sealed the bad demons were forced into Gehena and could only get back using hosts. But all demons need hosts, so that means all demons were banished, even the good ones. Thats a hole in your theory. I think there was no distinction between good and bad demons when the divide happened: I think when Satan rose to power, all demons were lumped in with him, and human exorcists banished all demons to Gehena, starting the dimensional fued we know today as humans vs demons.

Oh , I forgot to include that assumption.

I think that the barrier the kamis did when creating Gehena is what makes demons need to use a host to get into Assiah. The kamis and their descendants wouldn't need vessels because they were already on the side of Assiah when the barrier appeared, but the demons that got expelled into Gehena are trapped on the other side and can only avoid the barrier using hosts.

I also was thinking, maybe Satan wasn't the only one of his kin, but was much more powerful than the others and killed them until he was the only one with the Blue Flames left. And now it has been so many years than most demons do not remember/know and the ones who do value their lives enough not to mention the whole thing (aka, the cake is a lie).

If demons originally were not so different from humans, it would also enhance Mephisto's statement about whereas there is really a side of humanity" and a "side of demons". Maybe he is reluctant to the two worlds joining because he appreciates the differences that came to be between the species due to the isolation and thinks that will be lost if they mix fully (like you know, Australia that has weird animals because they evolved for millions of years on an unique enviroment away from any other species).

That theory was freaking magnificent *¬*
I actually think a lot of that is gunna come true, or is going to be similar.
Epic thinking, Archer!!!

Thank you.

For the record, Crack Theories is for theories that are very far-stretched/ridiculous and unlikely to come true. If you have a theory you think might actually happen, feel free to make a new thread about it. :)

But I do think it's a far-stretched, I forced tons of assumptions to make it up and have no real evidence for any of it. I actually think it borders an AU fanfic.

Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on November 03, 2013, 03:22:41 AM
^ It was a general remark. You can post them here if you want to. :))
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Lula on November 03, 2013, 11:16:03 AM
Wow, it makes sense *-* I hope that you are right, this theory is awesome.
Then, you're saying that the "kamis" blocked Satan in Gehenna ... But why Satan can evoke the Gehenna Gate? Is he so powerful to be able to create a "crack" in his imprisonment, which is the Gehenna Gate? I always wondered why only he can create it, he is the only one among all the demons that can not use it.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on November 13, 2013, 05:12:18 AM
So many issues with this. Hack away at it! XD

Maybe there is demon counterparts of the human souls; and only those counterparts can overtake the vapours of the person who died, while any demon can take on (almost) any person/thing of their choosing(or ability allows), even if they aren't the counterpart. ((Horrid logic, yes))
Since demons who get killed/exorcised in Assiah just return to Gehenna, then that means even if the counterpart came to Assiah in a different host and was exorcised, the human counterpart would be fine because the demon's originally body was not harmed.
 
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: chinonamida on November 13, 2013, 06:11:46 AM
^I have no idea what youre talking about. but you made me think of something.

If red flames burn things from Assiah, black flames burn things from Gehenna and blue flames burn both or
either. And If black flames can burn humans' soul.

Then human's souls are from Gehenna.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on November 13, 2013, 06:26:57 AM
Maybe before Assiah and Gehenna split in two, it was just Gehenna.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: chinonamida on November 13, 2013, 06:46:02 AM
. . . I think the point of splitting is the outcome are halves of the former state. If the original state still exists then you didn't split it.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on November 13, 2013, 07:10:52 AM
Hey, a crack theory is a crack theory. (It doesn't need to be an even split, either. You can have one dimension fork off from another.)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on November 13, 2013, 08:49:06 AM
^I have no idea what youre talking about. but you made me think of something.

If red flames burn things from Assiah, black flames burn things from Gehenna and blue flames burn both or
either. And If black flames can burn humans' soul.

Then human's souls are from Gehenna.

Who said black flames burn things from Gehenna?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: chinonamida on November 13, 2013, 05:46:00 PM
^Renzou said black flames were like "flames from Gehenna". They burn the demons inside and leave the hosts unarmed.
And he said "material red flames" (Assiah in Japanese is written with the kanji for material morld) burn the hosts and leave the demons unarmed.

So I figured, if one comes from Gehenna and burn demons who comes from Gehenna while leaving humans who comes from Assiah unarmed and the other one comes from Assiah and burn humans who comes from Assiha while leaving demons who comes from Gehenna unarmed, then it's safe to say the one that comes from Gehenna can only burn things from Gehenna and the one that comes from Assiah can only burn things from Assiah.


But anyway, thats why I keep saying "if".
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: AnEAddicted on November 13, 2013, 07:40:56 PM
No, since the red ones burned the impure king, I guess that they also harm the demon but not so directly like the black ones since it hurts only the demon and the red ones hurts the host and may hurt the demon, and if hurted too much and the demon can't regenerate then he is forced to leave the host.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on November 13, 2013, 08:40:31 PM
^ Since the impure king doesn't possess people, they were free to go ahead and hurt the host as well - and without a host the demon has to go back to Gehenna. So, in a way you are right that it'd hurt the demon, but it's more directed towards the host (a "material'' of Assiah) than the demon itself.

 But black flames harm that of which is connected to Gehenna, so it's the one actually doing the harm in a demon possession vs. red flames, which just burns the host.

Considering what chino said about the kanji and such - it sure makes Gehenna much more of a spiritual realm to me than a whole another world - I'm pretty sure if you took red flames to Gehenna they wouldn't have much affect on the demons.
Unnlleeesssss
Humans souls are in Gehenna = vulnerable to black flames
Demon souls are in Assiah = vulnerable to red flames.

Personally, I don't think this is so (Mind, this is not talking about how they need to hide their hearts and what-not; since Mephisto states if the heart is crushed they'd surely die, but it wasn't mentioned if a soul was damaged that it would kill the person. So, I think the hearts and souls are different.)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: chinonamida on November 13, 2013, 10:47:30 PM
Red flames don't hurt demons. But they can destroy the host. If there's no host no possess anymore, the demons are forced to return to Gehenna. Renzou explained that too.

Considering what chino said about the kanji and such - it sure makes Gehenna much more of a spiritual realm to me than a whole another world -

"Assiah" is written with the kanji for "material/physical world". So you'd guess Gehenna is the immaterial/spiritual world. Though "Gehenna" is written with the kanji for "nothingness world".

I don't know what to think of it, so I just don't mind about it...
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on November 14, 2013, 01:38:52 AM
What if Red Flames hurt whatever is in the dimension the user is currently in, and black flames hurt anything that comes from the other dimension and is possessing an object?

Because red flames (and the demons who use them) are kind of pointless/powerless if they can only hurt things from Assiah.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on November 14, 2013, 02:13:47 AM
What if Red Flames hurt whatever is in the dimension the user is currently in, and black flames hurt anything that comes from the other dimension and is possessing an object?

Because red flames (and the demons who use them) are kind of pointless/powerless if they can only hurt things from Assiah.

Well, if Gehena and Assiah were originally one, then it would make sense for demons to have evolved to damage different substances... Yes, it's kinda suspicious why a demon would have a power that's useless against other demons in his own habitat.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: chinonamida on November 14, 2013, 02:44:41 AM
Because red flames (and the demons who use them) are kind of pointless/powerless if they can only hurt things from Assiah.
You have a point. I didn't thought about demons using their powers in Gehenna.
I thought Gehenna was pretty empty, so that's why they want to go to Assiah.
Last time we saw it, it seemed everything was made of flesh and bones. :/
There might not even be things like water and earth...


Edit:
Well, if Gehena and Assiah were originally one, then it would make sense for demons to have evolved to damage different substances...
I hope you dont mean evolve as in the theory of evolution. I dont think it works like that for demons.

Quote
Yes, it's kinda suspicious why a demon would have a power that's useless against other demons in his own habitat.
If a demon pass most of it's time possessing something in Assiah, then wouldn't it's habitat be someplace in Assiah?
Like the peglanterns who eats humans. Maybe they starve if they stay in Gehenna.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on November 14, 2013, 04:50:51 AM
Yeah, a lot of demons have a permanent place in Assiah. But I doubt that's true for Iblis, the king of presumably red flames, and the "kingdom" under him. Black flames are most likely unique to Renzou's demon, and blue flames are definitely unique to Satan.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: chinonamida on November 14, 2013, 06:25:31 AM
^if its like I suggested in my previous post and theres no matter other than demons themselves in Gehenna, then the king of earth, water, air or insects are as useless.
I dont know if demons can decay like matter from Assiha. if they dont then the king of decay is useless too.

it didnt looked like there was a sun in Gehenna. it would make sense if there is no matter other than demons since stars are made of matters... actually stars make matters.

I guess Gehenna is as wide as Assiah since theyre mirror worlds. but I wonder. . . do demons only occupy the area parallel to the position of the earth? Since venturing further would be pointless. wait!? we could make missions to mars possible if they passed through Gehenna!
arrh Im straying away from the subject.

*sigh* I guess Im rationalizing for nothing. seeing how katou rarely explains stuff, I guess she doesnt know herself.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on November 14, 2013, 09:08:46 AM
I think, according to the one color picture I saw of what I think is Gehenna, there is a sun (it's not dark enough to not have a sun, or else it's being lit by supernatural means) but the sky is brownish so in the black and white pages it comes out dark. There goes my cave theory. I'm sad.

It looked like there was earth as well. Some sort of mountainous rock forms. It was dark in the black and white pages where Gehenna was shown, so it was hard to see.

http://mangafox.me/manga/ao_no_exorcist/v10/c039/30.html

http://mangafox.me/manga/ao_no_exorcist/v10/c038/1.html

Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: chinonamida on November 14, 2013, 06:18:34 PM
^I didnt remember that picture. Still, it's not so obvious there's earth. the ground still seems to be covered with or completely made of these things that looks like veins. Also I dont really want to push my theory so much, but this thing rin is sitting on, seems to have an eye socket with rin's blue flame burning inside. so maybe it's a skull.

About the fact it doesnt look so dark, it all depends on how demons' sight works.

I think the background is only miasma.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on November 14, 2013, 08:58:44 PM
I can't really tell either. I call the place Rin exploded from a mountain of rock because it looks like China's landscape or something out of Dragon Ball. I'll give you the veins = skin (or some other eldrich abomination type thing that's totally beyond our imagination). The thing Rin's sitting on looks like a monument and that -does- look like stone. It may also be a skull but it looks too square like. There are a TON of them all over Gehenna and some are huge.

New crack theory time: maybe that's what happens to demons when they go to Assiah! The part of them remaining in Gehenna gets encased in those things! It would explain the blue flame.

I like the miasma thing though. It makes sense for Gehenna to be covered in it.



Uhhh, should we move this over to one of the Gehenna threads?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: chinonamida on November 14, 2013, 09:58:13 PM
^it does looks like a stone. Though if its a demon skull, shape and size dont matter.

the symbol on it looks like the exorcists' symbol. its probably not demons who carved it.

there was a time I was notorious for being offtopic, I should watch out not to fall back into my old habit.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on November 15, 2013, 02:58:18 AM
^it does looks like a stone. Though if its a demon skull, shape and size dont matter.

the symbol on it looks like the exorcists' symbol. its probably not demons who carved it.

there was a time I was notorious for being offtopic, I should watch out not to fall back into my old habit.

When I showed my mother, who is extremely Catholic, you know, the old fashioned way, the True Cross Order pendant she said the colours represented Heaven and Hell.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on November 15, 2013, 04:39:01 AM
Lol, who else would carve it? Humans? Did Rin carve that one in the image?

Heavenly, did she say anything about the shape of the pin? And why would the Order use that particular color scheme?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: chinonamida on November 15, 2013, 09:41:14 AM
^I guess its rin T T
but remember humans can go to Gehenna through the gate.
or it could be a demon exorcist...
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on November 15, 2013, 01:37:12 PM
Lol, who else would carve it? Humans? Did Rin carve that one in the image?

Heavenly, did she say anything about the shape of the pin? And why would the Order use that particular color scheme?

I don't remember... I asked her way back when I had just picked up the anime... I could ask her again, though.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Kaibutsu on November 15, 2013, 05:34:29 PM
The thing I noticed about Gehenna when Mephisto transported himself and Rin was that the place looked like a desolate, corrupted copy of Assiah. Notice that They are teleported into a cave in the mountain, sitting behind behind and on slabs of veined stone that look exactly like the dining table. Even the food and utensils look like they have turned into stone: http://mangafox.me/manga/ao_no_exorcist/v10/c039/19.html
You can see the giggling demons hiding in the darkness even before Rin notices them: http://mangafox.me/manga/ao_no_exorcist/v10/c039/20.html

(I wonder if Amaimon knew he was now in Gehenna when he tried to morph into his demon form.)

Then here, Rin gets launched out of the side of the mountain that looks like a cliff side. Then we have more of those plateaus in the pre-last panel: http://mangafox.me/manga/ao_no_exorcist/v10/c039/30.html

Next page, you can see the silhouette of the mountain he crashed down from (which to me looks very, very similar to the silhouette of the True Cross Academy) and lands on the ground littered with rib cages and bones: http://mangafox.me/manga/ao_no_exorcist/v10/c039/31.html

There is definitely matter in Gehenna, because at the very least we have rocks and bones.
I think Gehenna is the mirror image of Assiah, just much more corrupted, desolate, destroyed and barren. In this case, it makes more sense why some demons seem to be more fascinated with humanity. It also feeds into the "opposites" theme between Gehenna (desolate) and Assiah (lively).

It also could be that Mephisto purposefully took Rin to a desolate landscape to not reveal much of Gehenna to him and/or attract other demon's/Satan's attention. Therefore, other parts of Gehenna may be more lively and populated than this rocky place.

Edit: This also makes more sense if you remember that Shirou said that Gehenna and Assiah are 2 dimensions joined like a mirror - one looking normal and the other looks corrupt: http://mangafox.me/manga/ao_no_exorcist/v01/c001/31.html
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: chinonamida on November 15, 2013, 07:59:00 PM
There is definitely matter in Gehenna, because at the very least we have rocks and bones.
My theory was there's only demons in Gehenna. the ground and any constructions are made of some demonic living organism and/or dead demons' remains.

I thought too this place looked like true cross academy with Mephisto's mansion on top, but then the surrounding looks nothing like Tokyo.
Mephisto probably built this place in Gehenna. And he probably helped built true cross academy in Assiah. Thats why they look alike. I suppose.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on November 16, 2013, 12:50:06 AM
You mean the surface of Gehena is like one big demon and all other demons existing over it?

Or maybe it's like in the Taoist creation myth where the giant that separated ying and yang died and its body parts created everything else that exists.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: chinonamida on November 16, 2013, 02:06:58 AM
You mean the surface of Gehena is like one big demon and all other demons existing over it?
This is a crack theory. Im not even sure what Im saying.

If there's no stars then there's no matter. if theres no matter there's no planets (and no living beings as we know them). if there's no stars or planets, there's no gravitational fields...
which means demons can occupy space however they want(?) though its fun to have a general idea wheres the ground so they build structures with what they have(?)
at least thats the theory.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on November 16, 2013, 02:46:12 AM
So I asked her again and she brought her notebook (she is studying something religious, I dunno understand but she let me see her notes from class):

Blue -> represents expansion, society's creation, conciousness, inspiration.

It represents the spirit and matter.

The spirit it's said to be the link between the soul and the body.

Red -> separation, energy, assertion, directing or transmitting.

It represents fire and soul and strength.

She also told me the pendant resembles a heart and that those are the colours of the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

I searched some pictures, and it seems Mary is mostly represented clad in red and blue:

(click to show/hide)

So I searched a little more:

Quote
(...) one Orthodox author will say that the blue represents the human nature wrapped in the red mantle of divine nature. Another author writes that blue signifies the divine nature (heaven) and the red signifies the human nature (earth or blood). (...)

(...) the depictions of the Mother of God are not as consistent. Eastern icons nearly always have the Mother of God in a blue dress and with a red mantle. This is the case in Greek icons in which she holds the Christ Child, her station at the Crucifixion, and even on her bed at the Dormition.

However, there are exceptions so that Mary wears red and has a blue mantle. This latter arrangement is more popular in Western depictions. For example, Raphael always pained Mary with a red dress with a blue mantle whether she be depicted in her espousals or in holding the Christ Child. Catholic depictions of Mary Assumed always have her wearing a blue mantle.

http://taylormarshall.com/2012/03/iconography-why-do-christ-and-mary-wear.html

Quote
Red colors symbolize the Holy Spirit and is the color of Pentecost. Red also represents fire and is associated with power and importance. Crimson red also symbolizes the presence of God and the blood of martyrs. It is the Christian liturgical color for Pentecost and represents atonement and humility.

Blue colors symbolize heavenly grace. The Virgin Mary is often depicted wearing blue clothing. Blue also represents hope, good health and the state of servitude.

http://www.catholic-saints.info/catholic-symbols/symbolism-of-colors.htm


Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on November 17, 2013, 08:35:33 AM
Tied together, it would be power, importance, and grace, huh? That makes sense.

But if the symbol is supposed to be a heart, I am just going to take that as support for my theory that Gehenna towers = demon hearts of demons in Assiah.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Isis-Lied on November 26, 2013, 03:45:42 PM
Alright, this is a crack theory, but it kind of ties in to the exorcist order/new blood thread.

Anyway, don't you guys think that Rin's cram school group is a bit too powerful? They're all still exwires but one is the half-demon son of Satan, Bon had Karura contracted w/ him for a bit (showing that he has some ability as a tamer) and is extremely intelligent, Shima is a spy, albeit w/ a very powerful demon working for him, Izumo can summon two demons at a time (I imagine that's a feat, considering her age and experience), Shiemi is also a tamer (once again, tamers are considered rare), Takara can control puppets/ is a higher rank than the rest of the cram class, and Konekomaru has the natural abilities of a leader and has been shown to think quickly and logically. And Paku? She didn't show any real talent as an exorcist and was just allowed to drop out, which suspiciously worked for the dynamics of the team. 

Now, we know that beforehand Mephy had put both Takara and Shura into the cram class. But what if the whole class itself was instrumented/hand-picked by Mephisto? I don't know exactly how, but every person in that class is seemingly there on purpose. We've been wondering how the exorcist Order has managed to stay afloat, given that the apparent 'only' class of exorcists that year for the school was really tiny. But what if they were separated for a reason (meaning that there are other exorcists being trained at the same time, but are separated from Rin's class)? Given that Mephy is the king of time and space, he may know just what type of people/push Rin will need to reach his full potential. In reality, everyone (including Shima) are there to train Rin (but of course they don't know that) and are all part of Mephy's plan ^^'

Basically what I'm trying to say is that his plan may have started a long time ago, perhaps when he learned of the twin's existence. I don't think the group is formed based on chance; they all seem to have abilities beyond what one would expect from beginners. They are all especially talented, which is something I find fishy. There should be at least one who is average and doesn't show any real talent. And it's also weird that nearly everyone in the class has some form of tamer ability (the only one out really being Konekomaru) despite it being supposedly 'rare.' Rin's got Kuro, Yukio (if we count him as being part of the class) used the niads w/o any real training, Shiemi has Nee-chan, Izumo has her foxes, Shima has his black flames demon familiar (the name escapes me), Bon had Kurara for a bit, and Takara has his puppets. 

(Apologies for the rambling; I'm just really excited to see Mephy's end game ^^')
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on November 26, 2013, 04:32:23 PM
Pretty logical - and I'm pretty sure Mephy said he handpicked people, but I could be wrong (too lazy to check on this).
I think the other cram school students registered earlier than Rin, though; Rin came pretty close to the beginning of the new school year - I would assume the others (not including Shiemi of course) registered sooner, not to mention Mephisto was ready to kill Rin in the first place.
So, I think rather Mephisto must've known he'd need to be really picky,  or, (as this now goes into a crack theory) - Toudou may have been told to get more recruitments, or more-so spies like RZ. He must've noticed the others wouldn't work like RZ, so why not do what he did with Mamushi - have them go through their training and then betray the Order later? But, the issue with this is they probably had the revival and all that other shizzly-dizzles planned out for that date, so they may have had no need for Bon and Koneko.

Anyways, Mephisto knew about Izumo, too, right? So...He purposely wanted Takara, Shura, and Izumo - and of course Rin - so that leaves Bon, Koneko, RZ, and Shiemi.
 Mephisto may have realized something was going on in the Myodha sect so maybe that's why he recruited them? Maybe he found out Bon's goal and had a little laugh at that.
Shura was probably dismissed after Rin was brought out, it'd make barely any sense otherwise.
So...before Rin:
Takara, Izumo - possibly Bon, Koneko, and Rz.
So.....ya know, Takara does his thing and lets Izumo get kidnapped. Well, Takara isn't going to attend cram school. Now THAT looks bad on Mephisto - and I'm pretty sure he wants to keep the order sustained on top of it. So, that's probably why the Kyoto trio were allowed in.

Then of course came Rin and Shura.

Shiemi on the otherhand...Maybe Mephisto saw Yukio and Shiemi's potential love-life (Maybe even RinShi?) and thought it'd be a fun little game to throw in there? I'm not really sure; unless he knew she had tamer ability.
Then again, they don't have any doctors that year, Mephisto may have thought it was a good idea just for that she had the experience with the plants, even if he didn't know she was a tamer.

Sorry if this is rambled ^^;;
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on November 26, 2013, 09:10:00 PM
Now, we know that beforehand Mephy had put both Takara and Shura into the cram class. But what if the whole class itself was instrumented/hand-picked by Mephisto? I don't know exactly how, but every person in that class is seemingly there on purpose. We've been wondering how the exorcist Order has managed to stay afloat, given that the apparent 'only' class of exorcists that year for the school was really tiny. But what if they were separated for a reason (meaning that there are other exorcists being trained at the same time, but are separated from Rin's class)? Given that Mephy is the king of time and space, he may know just what type of people/push Rin will need to reach his full potential. In reality, everyone (including Shima) are there to train Rin (but of course they don't know that) and are all part of Mephy's plan ^^'

But that would mean that Mephisto knew exactly when Rin would awaken, because he only joined at the last moment after Shiro died. The other students were all there before him (except for the spies, probably).

As for Izumo and the Kyoto trio, it seems more likely that the Illuminati were behind that. We know they sent Izumo, and it's not hard to imagine that Shima was the one who suggested the True Cross academy to Bon. Mephisto could have helped a bit, like approving Bon's scholarship, but I don't think that happened because of Rin.

Ooh, wait! What if it was the other way around? What if Mephisto brought in Rin to help him with the Illuminati issue? Let's say he knew Izumo was their designated vessel, and he was worried about fighting Lucifer on his own. All he had to do was tip off that fake!Astaroth demon so he could go and push Rin into awakening, and voila, now he has the flames of Satan on his side! In a fight between two demon kings, this could prove to be a crucial advantage.

Shiemi was probably just coincidence.


Quote
Basically what I'm trying to say is that his plan may have started a long time ago, perhaps when he learned of the twin's existence. I don't think the group is formed based on chance; they all seem to have abilities beyond what one would expect from beginners. They are all especially talented, which is something I find fishy. There should be at least one who is average and doesn't show any real talent. And it's also weird that nearly everyone in the class has some form of tamer ability (the only one out really being Konekomaru) despite it being supposedly 'rare.' Rin's got Kuro, Yukio (if we count him as being part of the class) used the niads w/o any real training, Shiemi has Nee-chan, Izumo has her foxes, Shima has his black flames demon familiar (the name escapes me), Bon had Kurara for a bit, and Takara has his puppets.

We had someone without real talent: Paku. That's why she dropped out.

And they aren't all Tamers. Kuro is just staying with Rin by choice. Karura was bound by a contract. Yukio could only control the Niads thanks to his special bullets; it was confirmed that he has no Tamer abilities of his own. I'm not sure about Shima and Takara.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on November 27, 2013, 01:35:43 AM
Takara's "summoning" could actually be the puppet demon doing it.

Shima, I am not sure. I am leaning towards a family contract like with Karura.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on December 04, 2013, 01:38:04 AM
So what if that woman is Shiemi's aunt?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on December 04, 2013, 01:46:34 AM
.....That is evil. But a possibility.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on December 04, 2013, 02:03:25 AM
I could make it worse.

What if her father is part of the organisation as well?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on December 04, 2013, 02:19:22 AM
Omg the drama! Would watch. We need to know what is up with her dad anyway!
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on December 04, 2013, 02:00:59 PM
I could make it worse.

What if her father is part of the organisation as well?

Now you gave me a really evil idea.

You know, some people have wondered what's with the Moriyama family living in a place it can only be reached by exorcist + Shiemi was home-schooled all the up until she picked cram school.

Let's say the guy we see speaking with Tama in this chapter is Izumo's dad.

What if Izumo and Shiemi share the same dad (omg, that would actually be funny to watch their reactions, Shiemi would go all "best sisters forever") and he was a member of the Illuminati?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on December 04, 2013, 07:30:35 PM
"Let's defeat dad together!" is pretty much what will happen. But jeez, that makes Shiemi/Izumo's dad a huge douche doesn't it? Doing this shit to his own daughter.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: chinonamida on December 04, 2013, 07:42:35 PM
So what if that woman is Shiemi's aunt?
I could make it worse.

What if her father is part of the organisation as well?
The family name of Shiemi's father and aunt(assuming she'd be her father's sister) should be Moriyama.

If this woman is related to Shiemi, it would make more sense if she was her mother.
It's good for this theory we don't know her name yet.


@Archer, he probably was a member of the Illuminati.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on December 04, 2013, 07:55:53 PM
^ No-one said they had to be married. Maybe Shiemi got her name from her mother because she raised her alone.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on December 04, 2013, 07:57:26 PM
Wait, didn't it  say her name on the business card? Maria something?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: chinonamida on December 04, 2013, 08:18:27 PM
Maria Yoshida
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on December 04, 2013, 11:51:47 PM
...

...Well.

Shiemi's mom is divorced.

Izumo's mom has every reason to keep her maiden name because of the family lineage.

IT MATTERS NOT.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Bittergeuse on December 09, 2013, 05:14:14 PM
So I just read tardar's fic about Satan (it's awesome btw) and found this:
 
Quote
''What kind of name was ''Rin''? Those bastards ignored the name Satan had picked out for him''
I think Satan would have named him Salpsan, the name of a demon that is referred to as the ''Son of Satan'' in the Gospel of Bartholomew, a missing text from the New Testament, although the information about this is ridiculously scarce or might be fake and google isn't helping:
Quote
"The only 'direct' son of the devil, or (Satan), ever identified in the New Testament apocrypha, especially by name. His only appearance is found in the Questions of Bartholomew." "IV:58 -- "58 And I (Satan) awaked my son Salpsan and took him to counsel how I might deceive the man on whose account I was cast out of the heavens.""

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Bartholomew
http://libraryoftheancients.proboards.com/thread/24/demons

Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on December 09, 2013, 06:02:31 PM
*spits*

....Awesome? It's awesome? That part's awesome? Not silly? You just made my day! Thank you so much. I am crying tears of joy. You are my favorite person. T^T

Anyway, earthforge and I were recently having a conversation about this, and he brought up that Satan wouldn't have given Rin a more well-known mythological name since he's only 15 and the lore's a lot older. Salpsan sounds obscure enough to fit and Satan's never actually had a son before. So it sounds like a good bet to me!

(Even if Katou doesn't use that name, I will haha.)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Bittergeuse on December 09, 2013, 06:42:35 PM
Hell yeah i loved it. It seems pretty in-character, although we haven't seen him so much, I believe Satan isn't actually all serious and ominous like he appears on most fanfics. You just gotta remember the first and only time he popped up: He's bat***t insane he thinks everything is funny (unless it pisses him off), but he's still very murderous, cunning and merciless, like, well...the Joker. So you probably don't have to worry about him being silly sometimes.

Well, back on topic, Salpsan is very a obscure name and I don't think it will appear in the manga at all, but it makes a wonderful headcanon because Katou uses demonology books and parts of the bible for the story's mythology.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on December 09, 2013, 08:26:35 PM
I was thinking about the whole thing of the stone that "Takes Life and Gives Life".

We will know for certain next chapter but...

Lucy said he would revive Satan. the Illuminati went all the way to the Inari Shrine to get that stone. Invested all that money in making the place more tourist to attract people. The whole Tamamo being possessed was clearly planned by them.

While I still think Tamamo was the host that collapsed after Lucy finishes his speech to declare war to the True Cross. I also think the Illuminati wanted the fox. It was killing two birds with one shot.

Using Tamamo (a very powerful miko going by what Mike said) as a vessel for Lucy and getting the fox to use it on Satan's revival.

 From what I have seen, the general consent is that Satan intended to break the Kurikara's blade in chapter 1. We know, from what Mephisto explained to Rin about demons hearts that this would have killed him.

Now, borrowing a little from a previous theory I had written on how Gehena and Assiah used to be one and Gehena is actually Stan's prison that he was kicked out to when he went rebellious against the rest of the kami. ( http://www.theblueknight.host-ed.me/forum/index.php/topic,54.msg8084.html#msg8084 ).

"Assiah" is written with the kanji for "material/physical world". So you'd guess Gehenna is the immaterial/spiritual world. Though "Gehenna" is written with the kanji for "nothingness world".

Maybe Gehena is the "Nothingness World" because demons were deprived of a physical body when they were kicked in there. Hence why demons need vessels.

Now, going back to Shinto tradition. There is this thing of revering your dead ancestors so they become protector kamis for your family.

Rezou's words about burning an human's soul imply such thing exist in the Ao no Exorcist universe.

We have seen ghosts, which are considered demons that posses air particles and have the personality of a person who passed away.

What if, Satan is considered "dead" but not "dead-dead" as when you kill a demon with black flames but "dead" as in that he lost his physical body.

Then, Mephisto's deal with Satan (the one he sent Amaimon to negotiate back in chapter 2 if I remember correctly) would have been that he convinced Satan to train Rin so his demon heart is on a level comparable to that of a Demon King, thus ensuring his body will be able to host Satan's power.

Going back to Izumo, they needed her to be able to perform kamioroshi. I don't think his was so she could become Lucy's host (Lucy could simply force the possession) but so she can extract the Kyubi from the stone and use it to revive Satan within Rin's body.

Why they need to wait? Maybe they need certain conditions... like an special alignment of Gehena and Assiah...

Actually, the Illuminati wanting to use her to hurt Rin could be a good reason to refuse helping them.. *cough* shipping *cough * otp *cough*
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on December 09, 2013, 11:36:22 PM
On the part about Satan breaking Kurikara:

It is possible breaking it at that particular moment wouldn't have killed Rin. Satan was explicitly saying that he wanted to "free" Rin and help him reclaim his demonic nature. Not kill him. At the time, the sword was sheathed, meaning that Rin's heart was locked in Gehenna instead of in the sword. Only when Rin draws the sword does a gate to Gehenna open and the heart moves to the sword.

In other words:
Break the sword while drawn: Instant death.
Break the sword while sheathed: the binding on Rin's demon heart is destroyed and Rin becomes a normal half demon who can call on his demon heart at any time. His demon heart starts out in Gehenna though.

If Satan did mean to kill him, your theory makes perfect sense though. I am trying to make it make sense with some changes, because I like it.

Rin didn't seem to be instrumental to the Illuminati's Plans, but I only say that because Shima and Izumo didn't know about him, and Lucifer has made no real effort to kidnap him. (Shima may have been lying and knew the entire time, who knows?) Maybe it's just not time yet.

But the stone is definitely going to be used to revive Satan. Izumo will be used to host the fox and the fox will do it. That's not even close to crack, it's more like the logical conclusion from what we already know.

It also makes sense in that for a while Izumo was half-willing to help them. Now she's not. Because if your theory is true now she knows it would involve sacrificing Rin. Shipping/OTP or not, she has a crush on him and that's kind of obvious. Maybe she didn't know that he was the son of Satan, but she could have known that the Son of Satan existed and that his body would be used as Satan's vessel during the revival. (Same with Shima.)

The Illuminati could be waiting a year for Rin to mature as a host. Then they'd break the Kurikara. Here's my theory: instead of killing him, the Illuminati wants to be merciful and do it while the sword is sheathed, and maybe that would sever the connection between Rin's human body and his demon heart, and then Satan takes the human body for himself. The reason why they don't inform Rin is because Rin & Co. would have a lot of time to prepare a counter-plan.

After the revival succeeds. Rin becomes the same as another demon. Whatever happens to other demons in the new merged universe will happen to him too. He'd become a "kami" like the foxes right?

All of the non-kami (kin) demons were created by Satan. He is a god, so he could have created the 8 kings as lesser beings using clay, or a part of his body, or something else. He uses the skin of these 8 kings to go on and create all species of demon under his domain. Anyway, maybe after the worlds merge the "kin" demons would still need bodies too. And possession would be forced on a whole lotta things and it would kill a good portion of living things in Assiah. Or the host beings would just merge with the demon possessing them. It is possible that after the merging, demons/spirits could exist in Assiah as non-material spirits. They could float around, not really needing a body.

Let me add three of my crack theories on top of this:

1. Satan has the ability to strengthen the powers of any demon (as well as CHANGE their powers and inspire absolute loyalty in them). He needs to increase the power of the nine-tailed fox several-hundred-fold -and make a couple of tweaks to it- before she can merge Gehenna and Assiah together. He would come to Assiah first, alone, and then he'd do his thing on Izumo and the Fox. This is why he'd still need Rin's body even if demons won't need vessels in the new, merged world.

As to why this would make the world truly peaceful, well:

2. Satan's job, as the God of Gehenna, is to inspire loyalty and morality (or at least a very-alien-to-us demon brand of it) in his subjects, so Gehenna doesn't become more of a cesspool of death than it already is. Lucifer might also be depending on the power of human faith to mediate Satan and make him less batshit insane.

This can happen, because:

3. Humans have a special form of power that turns their faith (and perhaps imagination, by extension) into a magic that affects spirits and Gehenna in whatever way the user wants. This is why Arias and magic circles work, even though the texts that they are using are bastardizations of the original. The condition is that enough people must know of the faith and acknowledge it. So the Japanese Bible and the Sutras are powered by the fact that they're using a well known religion, and from the fact text is read/believed by a lot of people. Also, rather than the kamis imprisoning Satan, it was both the kamis and the humans working together who imprisoned him.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on December 09, 2013, 11:53:28 PM
Lucifer did say Rin would have to take sides.

I guess Rin taking his time to think about sides imply he won't necessarily die if he helps Lucy. Because if helping Lucy equals dying I don't think he has much to think about.

An alternative:

Lucy said the original state is nothingness.

What if it's not so much about demons loosing their bodies but about humans and everything that now forms Assiah gaining them. In the Shinto foundation myth, the first gods come from chaos without shape then, Izanagi and Izanami create the land by removing the sea to form islands.

Following the this idea, maybe the kamis didn't kick the rebellious out and took their bodies away but rather "removed" the "nothingness" to extract the "material" and create Assiah.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on December 09, 2013, 11:56:50 PM
Following the this idea, maybe the kamis didn't kick the rebellious out and took their bodies away but rather "removed" the "nothingness" to extract the "material" and create Assiah.
Sure. But how would that change things?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on December 10, 2013, 12:02:41 AM
It's kind of only make thing smore complicated:

So, they "revive Satan" into Rin's body. Satan finishes the Gehena Gate and it's used to "sink" the "material" into the "nothingness" again.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on December 10, 2013, 12:05:27 AM
What happens to humanity?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on December 10, 2013, 12:09:51 AM
We become souls!!!

Also, about this:

Quote
3. Humans have a special form of power that turns their faith (and perhaps imagination, by extension) into a magic that affect spirits and Gehenna in whatever way the user wants. The condition is that enough people must know of the faith and acknowlege it.

I imagine something like in the Monogatari Series.

There all supernatural things are called "oddities". Oddities exist because humans believe in them, what humans believe about oddities also determines their powers. If very few people believe in an oddity, then their set of ideas about it will define it even more.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on December 10, 2013, 12:20:21 AM
I was going to go with something similar with that idea...(human faith creates demons and more faith/belief equals more power). But that doesn't really seem to be the case here. No one except the people who have seen Satan's blue flames know that he's blue-flamey. Angels/God would exist. And Kuro would have ceased to exist.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on December 10, 2013, 12:24:34 AM
Yeah...Let's drop that one...

Or (there is always an Or)...

Belief isn't fundamental for the existence of a demon in the divided world, but it was in the original unified world. That's what's up with all the deal of "Illumination", Lucy needs a world of people who love daddy.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on December 10, 2013, 02:15:05 AM
I'll help you flesh out your "Or". Why not?

So in other words, Gehenna and Assiah were be split at a time when animal deities existed, cat siths existed, all non-kin demons existed, and Satan existed. The 8 kings had not been born yet, as it was just Satan sealed away. And all demons now are descended from those original kamis or from Satan.

Ucchushma once said that angels/demons/myou-ou were names that humans invented for the same creatures. He could mean that these creatures were technically all demons, and that the split between worlds happened before the Abrahamic religions were a thing (Satan adopted the name from them because he liked it.) But he could also mean that humans did the naming as they created the new kamis, and the Judeochristian god is just another kami/high-class demon. So, for the record, would be any gods that predated the Judeochristan one (Egyptian/Mesopotamian/Mycenean&Greek&Roman....). While that would be cool, I don't see characters like that appearing in AnE.

Either way, all supernatural creatures "invented" by humans after that split never came to be. They either remained fiction, were descendents of kamis, or were beings from Gehenna and descended from Satan's children.

We DO know that this split predates Norse Mythology since "Loki" is really Samael. Wikipedia says Norse mythology originated around the 9th century AD, Judaism around the 10th-5th centuries BC, Mycenian around 15th century BC, and Mesopotamian/Egyptian way before those three. Anthropologists believe that "religion" in its most basic form (burials and the recognition of a soul) goes back to the Neanderthals. The first "religious" structure was the Gobleki Tepe, built around 10,000 years ago. No one knows what it was made for.

If humans were moved into Assiah, where did the entire geologic history of the planet come from? What, besides humans, was moved to the "Material world"? If "Gehenna" was the original world everything just falls apart regarding how the Assiah was created. (Our planet DOES have a very long history and evidence of said history, after all. And the history of our planet predates humanity.) WHY we don't see any evidence of demons, assuming the geological history of Assiah is actually Gehenna's geological history? If Assiah is the original world and Gehenna is the branch world, then it is a lot easier to say "the power of humanity and the kamis created a separate universe that they could throw Satan into. As a result, all spiritual things and any evidence of them were thrown into this separate universe."

You could ALSO say that the Assiah and Gehenna split happened looooooong before humans. During Earth's formation actually. Human souls, which are actually demons, were booted out of Gehenna by Satan for being generally annoying with their hive-mind reality warping powers. In the process, humans lost their ability to reality warp EXCEPT on creatures from Gehenna. These demons ingrained themselves into Neanderthals and suddenly "Homo Sapiens" exist. It stops being anything like a possession and starts being a different creature in Assiah after "Homo Sapiens" start breeding with the Neanderthals and each other.

Now. How that relates back into Lucifer's plan, I don't know! Maybe it's just better to drop the entire idea, and go back to "Assiah is the original. Kamis banish Satan to a dimensional prison."
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on December 10, 2013, 02:36:46 AM
That is brilliant, but sorry, I couldn't resist...

The first "religious" structure was the Gobleki Tepe, built around 10,000 years ago. No one knows what it was made for.

If humans were moved into Assiah, where did the entire geologic history of the planet come from? What, besides humans, was moved to the "Material world"? (...) WHY we don't see any evidence of demons, assuming the geological history of Assiah is actually Gehenna's geological history?

(...)

"Assiah is the original. Kamis banish Satan to a dimensional prison."

(http://jacobfoxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Ancient-Aliens.jpg)

No, really, when you wrote the "None know what it was made for." my mind went "Plot twist: demons are actually aliens from another dimension!"
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on December 10, 2013, 02:45:02 AM
I was aiming more for "The structure they built to boot Satan out of Assiah".

Aliens works too. Interplanetary warfare with alien semi-material spirit things and human magic and shit! YEAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH.

Actually if they're creatures that come in through another dimension.... THEY ARE ALIENS. THEY ARE ALIENS FROM ANOTHER DIMENSION.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on December 10, 2013, 02:53:26 AM
Maybe I should go to bed... I don't think I will be making anymore sense...actually, I think I will become even more incoherent as time goes by...
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on December 10, 2013, 03:29:49 AM
But I enjoy being crack-y with you. :(

(By the way, I was going to change the thing from before to "human souls run away from Gehenna" instead of being booted out. )

Though, when you were saying something earlier about how the kamis separated the "material" out of the nothingness. That could certainly give rise to a "new" world that had historical evidence from the "old" world. Gehenna and Assiah are equally new. The original dimension was neither Assiah nor Gehenna.

I still like my "souls are from Gehenna, humanity is all part kami" theory. :< Even if the split was supposed to occur billions of years ago.


Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on December 10, 2013, 12:53:49 PM
Yeah, if Assiah and Gehena as we know them today were created by taking separating certain elements from an original world it kind of doesn't matter what element was preponderant in that world, both Assiah and Gehena are new.

About the geological history of Assiah, Kazue can always pull a Haruhi.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on December 10, 2013, 07:03:43 PM
But I don't want her to just say "it's all fake".  :(

Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on December 11, 2013, 12:19:01 AM
JjAJAJAJAJ...well, I don't see it happening any time soon. Nah, most mangas and stories in general that bring up a supernatural elements either ignore the creation of the world or ignore scientific evidence.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Elaedan on December 11, 2013, 08:18:57 PM
Well I hace read your ideas in multiple threads but I think that I will include mine here! Your ideas are awesome, but I have also a couple of theories which aren't complete but hunches mostly xP


So why demons want to posses things and come to Assiah?
First thought that crossed my mind in that they maybe weren't created as bad guys in the beginning, they may have been malevolent but they got the desire for material and Assiah by accidentally first time crossing the veil and possessing somehting. For example you don't know what some thing is before you have tried it (what is cold, how it feels to be sick or hurt). Maybe demons themselves hadn't emotions, but when they got hold of body or thing they got the taste of what feels to be "alive or living" and they got hooked. Now was they want to feel it again and be as lucky as the beings able to be alive, they try to get host through whom they can live through and feel all the glorious things of live.

What kind of place is Gehenna?
Well it could be nothingness and dull place, but I like to think it that there is nothingness but then there is desert and wilderness like in anime scene were Mephisto phones Amaimon who was in Gehenna slaughtering lesser demons. And was in Demon's Etiquette also some backgroud when Rin "flew" off? And if you could somehow enter the place, could you then bring material there? I think that I like the idea of fanfics where Satan lives and rules in a huge castle or appartment, I wouldn't see it a problem to bring things from material world or if Satan indeed has God-like powers he could create thing after he has seen them (going to philoshophy again: you don't know what chair is before you have seen one ---->> demons saw all the wonderful things of Assiah and what humans created from imagination ---->> you can imitate). I really think it would be cool in some point for example to Rin get locked for a while to Gehenna and try to survive there for a while among many, many demons. I want to see the place!


What about Satan possessins Rin? What about breaking his sword?
So does we really have anything proof of Satan wanting to get Rin's body for himself? In anime it is clear but in manga I think there is only a slight reference in chapter 1 and even Satan says so I really don't think he means just to grab Rin to Gehenna and posses him himself, not straight enough said imo. And what Mephisto tells to Rin in chapter 39 is it even possible to possess a demon? Even Rin's heart is locked in Kurikara, I still think he has more close bond with his own body which is perfectly modded for him ('cause he was born with it) so it is even able to exorcise Rin's soul/consciouness or what there is away and to inhabit it? Rin is a half-demon so I don't think vatal verses etc would do the trick. And I think it is quite rare to high class demon like Satan get human offsprings ---->> how to even deal with one so powerfull one? Furthermore, why then Satan let the thing go after chapter 1 - he possibly could order demons to get Rin to him so it has some meaning that he is letting Mephisto raise him and not interfere.
And last point is that if it really comes that it is true that the real reason is Satan wanting Rin's body, I would think it a little dull plot twist. For example many other series have this kind of thing that ultimate evil wants the protagonist's body and Supernatural TV-series are good proof of that. I think Supernatural is known ebough around the world that it would make AnE too much like it, 'cause in the end hunter brothers ended up as vessels...
And what would happen if someone broke Kurikara? I think that it would just set his demon heart free - it is locked in the sword, so I think it isn't really part of it that breaking the sword would harm his heart. It would maybe just return to it's original place, to Rin's body?


And lastly, I really hope the world will stay in two-dimensions. The fresh touch which I really am in love with in AnE is that there isn't angels or heaven that fight against the foul creatures, but humans and other not-so-corrupted things have to take care of themselves. I don't know a series which there would be "Earth and hell but not heaven" so I really wish AnE would stay that refreshing way - third dimension would make me the world maybe a little complicated too :33
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on December 11, 2013, 09:59:09 PM
Quote
So why demons want to posses things and come to Assiah?
First thought that crossed my mind in that they maybe weren't created as bad guys in the beginning, they may have been malevolent but they got the desire for material and Assiah by accidentally first time crossing the veil and possessing somehting. For example you don't know what some thing is before you have tried it (what is cold, how it feels to be sick or hurt). Maybe demons themselves hadn't emotions, but when they got hold of body or thing they got the taste of what feels to be "alive or living" and they got hooked. Now was they want to feel it again and be as lucky as the beings able to be alive, they try to get host through whom they can live through and feel all the glorious things of live.
This may be at least partially true.

However, the evidence against it being fully true is:

Quote
? And if you could somehow enter the place, could you then bring material there? I think that I like the idea of fanfics where Satan lives and rules in a huge castle or appartment, I wouldn't see it a problem to bring things from material world or if Satan indeed has God-like powers he could create thing after he has seen them (going to philoshophy again: you don't know what chair is before you have seen one ---->> demons saw all the wonderful things of Assiah and what humans created from imagination ---->> you can imitate).
My headcanon is that Satan can both create objects at will and use clairvoyance to see into Assiah. Amaimon can bring his human host back to Gehenna (as far as I know he hasn't "left" it in 1000 years), so why can't Satan bring back objects too?

Quote
So does we really have anything proof of Satan wanting to get Rin's body for himself? In anime it is clear but in manga I think there is only a slight reference in chapter 1 and even Satan says so I really don't think he means just to grab Rin to Gehenna and posses him himself, not straight enough said imo.

Furthermore, why then Satan let the thing go after chapter 1 - he possibly could order demons to get Rin to him so it has some meaning that he is letting Mephisto raise him and not interfere.
Satan's planned possession of Rin is fanon by this point, but in reality we have no idea how he plans to gain access to Assiah. He may well have gone with Lucifer's plan and decided he doesn't need Rin anymore. Hence, we haven't heard from him at all. He hasn't even tried to possess Rin (you would think he would have if he just wanted Rin's body.)


Quote
And lastly, I really hope the world will stay in two-dimensions. The fresh touch which I really am in love with in AnE is that there isn't angels or heaven that fight against the foul creatures, but humans and other not-so-corrupted things have to take care of themselves.
Is this really such a unique thing? Outside of western countries (especially the United States!), where there aren't such strong preconceived notions of what a "demon" is, there are a lot of stories where demons exist without Heaven. AnE is unique in that there is a "Satan" without a Heaven, though.

It's only shows/comics that were made in the U.S. (OK, maybe Europe too, but I'm not an expert in that.) that tend to have "traditional" demons which they will ALWAYS pair with "traditional" angels and the "traditional" God.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on December 11, 2013, 11:33:57 PM
I was thinking about Izumo helping the Illuminati...

When she suspects Takara of being part of the Illuminati her reaction is to run away.

When Pig Face says they need her now, she protests that she hasn't reached the required level of skill to perform kamioroshi.

Setting aside the possibility that she might have changed her mind if what the Illuminati want includes sacrificing Rin.

The Illuminati betrayed her once. Why would she trust them not to do it again? What guaranty does she have that Tsukumo will be safe if she does her part?

So, then I was thinking of what the kamioroshi Tamamo performed consisted on.

What if Izumo true intention was to control the Kyubi and use it to kill Pig Face&co and thus guaranty Tsukumo's safety.

It could also explain why she wanted Paku to follow her in cram school. She might not expect to be able to hold herself together for long and Paku would have to take the Kyubi down.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on December 11, 2013, 11:36:44 PM
I like this! It gives Pig Face what he deserves.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on December 11, 2013, 11:44:15 PM
It would also fit with that she deliberately summoned Uke and Mike as familiars back at the Tamer test. She could have said any words, but she chose to summon harvest gods, it was obvious that it would the kitsune from her shrine to answer.

It would also cover why she doesn't want to get attached, it's likely she won't survive the Kyubi possessing her (or rather, the Kyubi being defeated) so she was afraid falling in love or making friends would waver her resolve (or they would try to stop her).

And yeah, I want Pig Face to have a violent painful death.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on December 21, 2013, 02:03:32 AM
Two things:

1) Papa Egin

(click to show/hide)

2) See, this is why I was saying I think Renzou's boss could be a spy under Mephisto (or the next mindfuck for Yukio in Todou's list):

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on December 21, 2013, 03:38:13 AM
I don't see the resemblance in the second one.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on December 21, 2013, 05:13:13 AM
That's a mask?
It looks like a beard shaven/ just beginning to grow in to me...

And for the second I certainly don't see the resemblance
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on December 21, 2013, 05:49:05 AM
It looked like a mask to me. But, at the same time I'm hoping I'm wrong or Manga!Papa Egin is completely different from his anime counterpart.

Or Katou just reused the design.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on December 21, 2013, 05:57:51 AM
I honestly don't see any resemblance to Papa Egin....

...I kinda feel like he reminds me of someone from FMA...I think I'm tripping though.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Toraii212 on December 21, 2013, 11:17:03 AM
I see the resemblance too with Egin but I think (like tardar-sauce said) Kato just reused the design.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Elaedan on December 21, 2013, 04:52:05 PM
He looks a bit like papa Egin but not enough, this guy has shorter hair I think... But still very interesting how I haven't noticed that guy before!
And I thought I read AnE very closely and properly
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on December 21, 2013, 07:54:21 PM
I don't see the resemblance in the second one.

That's a mask?
It looks like a beard shaven/ just beginning to grow in to me...

And for the second I certainly don't see the resemblance

After getting a proper amount of sleep, I will admit the second one was a really long shot. Sorry.

It looked like a mask to me. But, at the same time I'm hoping I'm wrong or Manga!Papa Egin is completely different from his anime counterpart.

If that's PapaEgin, then he must be sane (unlike his anime version) otherwise he wouldn't remain a high rank in the Vatican.

This actually made me think. Don't you find the Vatican a bit fragmented (ideas wise)?

Setting aside Mephisto, whose wild card status must have been judged by the Grigori many times concluding he was worth the risk...

Fujimoto, the previous Paladin, ignored orders and raised the Son of Satan (kind of fixed by making a guy with seemingly less brain be his successor)

Shura was sent to kill Rin and instead changed her mind and started training him.

Lightning's reaction to seeing a Gehena Gate? Fascination.

Todou and Renzou, coming from a long line of exorcist, turn into Illuminati.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on December 22, 2013, 08:04:50 AM
I'm not sure if this is seen as crack of logical, but I'll throw it here from now - tardar gave me the idea, btw.

What if after certain demons possess things in our world, and develop a place of where they are worshipped, their powers and ability to last in Assiah grow?

Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on December 22, 2013, 08:38:50 AM
I am not sure how exactly I gave you that idea, but sure!~ I think it makes sense. Humans can supply demons with power, see what Shiemi does with her familiar and how it actually exhausts her.

I think all humans have a reality-warping divine power that only affects objects from Gehenna, and they subconsciously use it to strengthen the demons they believe are gods.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on December 22, 2013, 05:55:58 PM
It was from the Nii thing. You brought it up and when I was first posting a response it popped into my head xD


And if you tie in the whole humans souls are in Gehenna think it makes even more sense...in a way....I feel like there is a major issue if you tie those together though xD
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on December 22, 2013, 09:01:44 PM
Yeah I'm still thinking the whole human souls are from Gehenna thing. That's pretty much headcanon for me at this point, although I'm fuzzy on the details. How would it cause issues?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on December 22, 2013, 10:47:13 PM
I'm not really sure. One of my really stupid gut feelings that doesn't want to register to my brain again. I'm so useless. T~T

Well...I guess if the demons are peoples' souls; when a demon possesses something in Assiah can it be in a separate body from that of which it's Assiah counterpart is? Probably...
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on December 22, 2013, 10:56:27 PM
Yeah. A while back when I was talking about the souls thing, I was saying that the souls fused with the Neanderthals they possessed and became an entirely different being once they started breeding with each other. So now the "new" being, I.E. modern humans, can be possessed just like all other objects and creatures.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on December 23, 2013, 12:04:00 AM
Righhttt. Okay
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Isis-Lied on January 06, 2014, 06:36:19 AM
Okay, am I the only one worried that Yukio may be used as a vessel for Lucy? I mean Lucifer's human host isn't looking so good and coupled w/ Yukio's demon eye moment (if you take it as not being a sign of his demon side awakening but as a danger to being possessed) I can't imagine him not breaking soon. Until we learned about the nine-tailed fox I thought Izumo was going to be possessed by Lucy (but it's pretty obvious she'll be used to channel the fox demon), but it still leaves the Illuminati w/ a problem: Lucifer's decaying human host. I'm sure he's been searching for a suitable host and if kidnapping Izumo also served two purposes (imagining that he's on par w/ Mephy as far as manipulation and planning goes), getting the life-giving stone and bringing the Okumura twins near him, he could be planning to convince Rin to come to his side or use Yukio as even more leverage. Or both.

Just a random thought ^^'

(I didn't know whether to put this in crack theory or future chapter speculation but this idea's pretty cracky so...)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on January 06, 2014, 06:49:12 AM
It isn't cracky at all. A lot of people have speculated this. I think half the forum is convinced that Yukio's eye thing is indicative of some kind of possession in the future. Yukio's eyes were flamey, though, so that kind of leaves Yukio channeling Satan, Rin, or Iblis's eyes.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on January 07, 2014, 04:16:40 AM
This just popped into my head while doing math...

What if the reason Lucifer's body is in such bad shape is because it's the one Satan used to impregnate Yuri, and Lucifer decided to take it over, thinking he could heal it since other bodies may not last him as long as the host Satan used.

Yep, that's cracky.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on January 07, 2014, 04:20:12 AM
It explains why Lucifer apparently looks like Rin.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on January 07, 2014, 04:26:25 AM
It would, indeed, but I'm not sure if Lucifer would want a decaying burnt body - especially since the degree of burns Satan may cause probably wouldn't heal ^^;;

Also, do we know if different demons can possess one person/thing? I'm going to assume so...

hmm I'm not sure now >.<

Now can you imagine seeing Lucifer without the mask in front of Rin and everybody else around them are like, Woahhhhh what?
....I wanna see that happen





Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on January 07, 2014, 04:40:24 AM
I think demons can only possess one type of body/object, though as long as it's from the same species the demon can use different hosts.

I want to see it happen too!
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on January 07, 2014, 04:53:02 AM
So you don't think demons can switch off hosts?


If it doesn't happen can we fanfiction it?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on January 07, 2014, 05:27:07 AM
I said they can switch hosts, but Lucifer can't possess a lamp, for example... He needs to possess a human. Kuro needs to possess a cat. Etc. Satan is probably special and can possess anything he wants. It just falls apart though.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on January 07, 2014, 05:29:40 AM
Ahhhh Okay I gotcha.

Still...I'm not sure if Lucifer would want to use Satan's shelled host. Aghhhh
I like the idea of Lucifer using Rin's dad's host's body. (So many ('s) O_O)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on January 07, 2014, 05:46:38 AM
Well, if said host WILLINGLY signed up to sacrifice himself to further Satan's goals....maybe.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on January 07, 2014, 05:58:34 AM
Satan: Yoooo, son! Done with this body....want it?
Lucifer: Why would I want that, my dear overwhelmingly epicly awesome father-lord?
Satan: Because this guy totally invoked me of his own free will! It would remind me of the love this guy gave me,  and with all your affection my son, it doubles my joy!
Lucifer: I WANNA PLEASE YOU DADDY!! *goes into host*

.....Why do I write such stupid things?



Possibly...hmm...

Wait....demons heal and regenerate quickly (some faster than others, obviously) - maybe Lucifer assumed he could heal the body no problem, but it ended up being in worse shape than he thought and Satan's damage was too much for him?

I should almost make a thread for Lucifer at this point >.>;;
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on January 07, 2014, 06:16:08 AM
Satan or Lucifer could also be doing it to mess with/entrap Rin.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on January 07, 2014, 06:38:06 AM
I don't think Satan expected his child to turn against him when the child hasn't even been made yet ^^;;
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on January 07, 2014, 06:53:06 AM
...Then to raise Rin? (Dammit, I can't make it work!)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on January 07, 2014, 06:58:16 AM
WAIT!! YOU GAVE ME AN IDEA!!!
TARDAR YOU'RE A GENIUS.

Satan can't stay in the host's body, but Lucifer can. And if they had a feeling/knew the child would look similar to the host and all, they had to make a plan to be able to raise the child in Assiah.
So, Lucifer takes over the body in order to be the father of the child - not sure how Yuri would be feeling about any of this (pretty sure she was raped...) - since it'd seem evident they were related and all - and if they had to do blood tests then there's your ''biological father'' right there!
AGHHH IT'S JUST SUCH A PERFECT PLAN ONLY TO BE SPOILED BY FUJIMOTO AND MEPHISTO
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on January 07, 2014, 07:16:07 AM
OF COURSE! YOU'RE RIGHT! Now, is it so important that the father look similar instead of Rin being adopted?

Maybe perhaps for legal battles...actually, it is not like Lucifer would be able to possess just ANYONE who adopted Rin. They would have to have a weak heart. So the biological father would get first dibs after the mom died. (That is, of course, assuming Yuri is really dead.)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on January 08, 2014, 12:27:03 AM
I'm not sure...
It must have something to do with their plans of course...ehh....Tardar, use your genius mind >.<

I can't see her being alive after birth - whether it was naturally or it's like, whoops! *kills her* (Doubt it's Lucifer who kills her though).

Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on January 08, 2014, 12:53:50 AM
Well it's not like Satan could raise him himself. Lucifer may have realized Rin's worth to his budding new organization right away. He may have been trying to gain power since before Rin was born. Rin could be an enforcer.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: facets-and-rainbows on January 08, 2014, 05:56:01 AM
Yukio did say on the plane that they've been seeing a lot of Illuminati-related cases for over a decade now, and that could coincide with the twins' birth and/or the Blue Night.

(Though personally I like to think that Lucifer and Mephisto got their bodies at the same time, maybe in related incidents ~200 years ago, and Lucifer's is disintegrating faster because he's more powerful. Because thinking that way makes the thinly-veiled smack talk more intense. "Nice mask lol don't start losing body parts all over my floor okay?" "I'm glad to see that you're still in good health you weaksauce weakling.")
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on January 08, 2014, 06:11:52 AM
A decade. Not 16 years. I think 16 years ago, he was just starting to form the organization and increase its influence.

Yeah. With our theory, Lucifer doesn't disintegrate the bodies he possesses at all. O.o. It was never confirmed that was why his body looks like that. (For better or worse.)

I actually can't see how Yuri could stay alive long enough to give birth, but die right after. Some demon murdering her is more likely. Satan could have possessed her to kill her for some reason? Maybe for giving away the children?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on January 08, 2014, 08:07:04 AM
 If he is the cause of the disintegrating it'd be because of his power or how long he's used the body.  Either way, I'm surprised he's still using it, so I'm going to take the crack theory route for now until proven otherwise because... I just like it XP

Unless Yuri died before giving birth and then it became time to cut her open.
...that sounds pretty bad...I forgot the official name of it... and I was brought to this world in that way

Well if he had enough time to kill Yuri, he might as well should've aimed at Fujimoto (assuming he was the only one present. I can see Mephisto staying a safe distance away and making Shiro fetch the kids and come back - maybe that's just me) and attempted to kill him.

...unless of course Satan didn't find out until after the fact. But still - wouldn't Lucifer be able to get the kids back if that were the case? Maybe Satan thought at first he'd just possess Shiro, get it over with, give the kids to Lucifer and away we go. But then Satan found it wasn't as simple as that, and Lucifer just went ahead on worked on his Illuminati plans?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on January 08, 2014, 08:34:37 AM
That way of killing off Yuri makes sense. Her body could have given out 7-8 months into the pregnancy.

If she was murdered instead: Perhaps Satan only recently found out where the kids were. Not only did he find out after the fact, neither he nor Lucifer knew who took them. They found out when Shiratori reported it.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: facets-and-rainbows on January 08, 2014, 09:04:18 AM
Yuri dying before giving birth would fit with Yukio being "underdeveloped" and unable to have demon powers. Complications from being born premature?

And I like the idea that Satan only found out where they were recently. Mephisto seems to have been involved and I feel like he'd be really good at hiding stuff, plus with Rin's powers sealed it probably would have been hard for Satan to tell the twins apart from all the regular humans.

A decade. Not 16 years. I think a decade ago, he was just starting to form the organization and increase its influence.

Huh. Looks like the fanmade scans have "decade", Viz has "dozen years or so", and the raws and tankoubon have 十数年 (juusuunen) (http://japanese.stackexchange.com/questions/7017/why-use-%E6%95%B0%E5%B9%B4-in-%E3%81%82%E3%82%8C%E3%81%8B%E3%82%89%EF%BC%91%EF%BC%90%E6%95%B0%E5%B9%B4), "ten and a number of years", which could be anything between "about ten" and "about twenty". Now I'm curious about the exact number.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on January 08, 2014, 09:12:17 AM
It might also have caused Rin's "underdeveloped" brain. XD

+

Oh crap. So it really could coincide with the Blue Night.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on January 08, 2014, 04:32:38 PM
(Though personally I like to think that Lucifer and Mephisto got their bodies at the same time, maybe in related incidents ~200 years ago, and Lucifer's is disintegrating faster because he's more powerful. Because thinking that way makes the thinly-veiled smack talk more intense. "Nice mask lol don't start losing body parts all over my floor okay?" "I'm glad to see that you're still in good health you weaksauce weakling.")

I really hope this is the case now. It fits them so well.


Yuri dying before giving birth would fit with Yukio being "underdeveloped" and unable to have demon powers. Complications from being born premature?

They're twins, remember? If Yukio was premature, then so was Rin. You can't use that as an explanation why one is stronger than the other.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Dimwit on January 08, 2014, 04:54:18 PM
Yuri dying before giving birth would fit with Yukio being "underdeveloped" and unable to have demon powers. Complications from being born premature?

They're twins, remember? If Yukio was premature, then so was Rin. You can't use that as an explanation why one is stronger than the other.

"I had cousins who were twins and one of them was born a very large and healthy baby while the other twin was weak and had to be hospitalized for a few weeks and hooked up to feeding tubes because he didn't get proper nutrition while in the womb (the other twin was getting it all)." (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090430084016AAmyNpl)

Maybe it could still work? They could be born prematurely, but Rin the healthier one because he got more nutrition?

+  this (http://www.steadyhealth.com/articles/IVF_And_Twins__Stronger_Embryo_Helps_A_Weaker_One_Survive_a2160.html) was also interesting.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on January 08, 2014, 05:19:45 PM
It's not rare in pregnancies with two or more babies for one to be stronger than the other, add to the mix the stronger one having demon blood...

Or maybe demon pregnancies last shorter. That way, Rin would have been fully developed when Yukio wasn't yet.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on January 08, 2014, 06:37:56 PM
Yuri dying before giving birth would fit with Yukio being "underdeveloped" and unable to have demon powers. Complications from being born premature?

They're twins, remember? If Yukio was premature, then so was Rin. You can't use that as an explanation why one is stronger than the other.

"I had cousins who were twins and one of them was born a very large and healthy baby while the other twin was weak and had to be hospitalized for a few weeks and hooked up to feeding tubes because he didn't get proper nutrition while in the womb (the other twin was getting it all)." (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090430084016AAmyNpl)

Maybe it could still work? They could be born prematurely, but Rin the healthier one because he got more nutrition?

+  this (http://www.steadyhealth.com/articles/IVF_And_Twins__Stronger_Embryo_Helps_A_Weaker_One_Survive_a2160.html) was also interesting.

I'm not saying Yukio can't have been weaker, I'm saying it can't have been because he was premature. There must have been another reason before that.

Yukio made it sounds like Rin got the flames (= became a demon) because he was stronger, but I wonder... it's also possible he was stronger because he had more 'demon blood' in the first place. That would sound more logical to me.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on January 08, 2014, 06:45:04 PM
Actually. Based on the season (winter) where Fujimoto stole Koumaken, and the twins' birthdate, Yuri was pregnant around 10 months.

It took me a while to remember this, sorry.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on January 08, 2014, 06:52:26 PM
That's very long. :o

How did she survive that? A baby of a month would be (too) big to fit into the womb, leave alone two. If that's the case, their development must have been seriously delayed.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on January 08, 2014, 07:00:28 PM
Are you sure it's ten months!??!

If that were so she must've had to have a c section...
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Wikkelsoee on January 08, 2014, 07:09:42 PM
Chino said sometime about that in his timeline, didn't he? Something about it snowing in spring...
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on January 08, 2014, 07:12:55 PM
Was that said in the manga? I will have to look.

Well, normally they would have been conceived at the end of March, right? Does the Tatsuma/Fujimoto event look like it took place in March to you?

We don't know how long it takes for half-demons to develop, so 10 months could still have been premature. Or something could have happened to stall their development.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Wikkelsoee on January 08, 2014, 07:44:56 PM
He wrote about it here (http://www.theblueknight.host-ed.me/forum/index.php/topic,24.msg7225.html#msg7225)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on January 08, 2014, 07:49:57 PM
Can you c/p the part about spring snows? I can't find it.

Also even if it's there it guarantees full gestation because May snows are unlikely as hell.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Wikkelsoee on January 08, 2014, 08:24:20 PM
It doesn't exactly say anything about snow (though he says Shirou would've had to steal Kurikara in spring), but I don't think it's unlikely for it to snow in March or April, especially in the mountains.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on January 08, 2014, 08:28:43 PM
That depends entirely on Japan's climate, and the height of the mountains. I would think spring snows are incredibly rare.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Elaedan on January 08, 2014, 08:31:14 PM
Yuri dying before giving birth would fit with Yukio being "underdeveloped" and unable to have demon powers. Complications from being born premature?

They're twins, remember? If Yukio was premature, then so was Rin. You can't use that as an explanation why one is stronger than the other.

"I had cousins who were twins and one of them was born a very large and healthy baby while the other twin was weak and had to be hospitalized for a few weeks and hooked up to feeding tubes because he didn't get proper nutrition while in the womb (the other twin was getting it all)." (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090430084016AAmyNpl)

Maybe it could still work? They could be born prematurely, but Rin the healthier one because he got more nutrition?

+  this (http://www.steadyhealth.com/articles/IVF_And_Twins__Stronger_Embryo_Helps_A_Weaker_One_Survive_a2160.html) was also interesting.

I'm not saying Yukio can't have been weaker, I'm saying it can't have been because he was premature. There must have been another reason before that.

Yukio made it sounds like Rin got the flames (= became a demon) because he was stronger, but I wonder... it's also possible he was stronger because he had more 'demon blood' in the first place. That would sound more logical to me.

I like to think like NeeNee that it is more about Rin getting more demonic blood/genes in first place than Yukio, all human traits and genes are determined in the time of conception (after that all is set nothing can change)so Yukio being weaker after it wouldn't matter - if the powers come comes with genes...


I wonder if anyone is going to ask Katou-sensei or does anyone wonder if she will return some point in story to origin of the twins and Revelations about their birth, early history and the Blue Night. I think it would be odd IMO if the story ignored such a tasty plot 'twist'. Rin and Yukio are Satan's first hybrid sons and most powerful demon getting babies would be kind of Big thing in the world 'cause they may or may not be a threat to the human kind. Also Blue Night itself was a Big deal and many aren't okay with that do would be lovely to know more ;33
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on January 08, 2014, 08:56:34 PM
I like to think like NeeNee that it is more about Rin getting more demonic blood/genes in first place than Yukio, all human traits and genes are determined in the time of conception (after that all is set nothing can change)so Yukio being weaker after it wouldn't matter - if the powers come comes with genes...
Yeah, but these kids have three parents (a human mom and dad, and then Satan). I'm not sure how genetics work among demons.

Quote
I wonder if anyone is going to ask Katou-sensei or does anyone wonder if she will return some point in story to origin of the twins and Revelations about their birth, early history and the Blue Night. I think it would be odd IMO if the story ignored such a tasty plot 'twist'. Rin and Yukio are Satan's first hybrid sons and most powerful demon getting babies would be kind of Big thing in the world 'cause they may or may not be a threat to the human kind. Also Blue Night itself was a Big deal and many aren't okay with that do would be lovely to know more ;33
Pretty sure she will tell us at some point. I'm still hoping to meet human family members, too.

But this is getting off topic... (Anyone wants to make a thread about the birth of the twins? We only have this (http://www.theblueknight.host-ed.me/forum/index.php/topic,62.0.html) and this (http://www.theblueknight.host-ed.me/forum/index.php/topic,72.0.html).)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: facets-and-rainbows on January 09, 2014, 10:10:37 AM
Maybe we could add it to the timeline thread?

I guess I've got a (really cracky) crack theory. It's not originally mine; I saw it while browsing Pixiv but I cannot for the life of me find the original post again.

Anyway, this person was thinking that Blue Exorcist and the Miyama-Uguisu Mansion Incident could be part of the same continuity if Blue Exorcist comes first. In their theory, Rin is already an exorcist when Night starts training to fight demons, and he acts as a friend/mentor figure to Night. They have similar fighting styles because Rin helped teach Night how to fight, and they look the same because Night spends a lot of time with Rin and it influenced his choice of human form.

It made sense but didn't seem to have any basis in reality whatsoever. And then I looked:
http://mangafox.me/manga/time_killers/v01/c001/23.html

And that exorcist in the bottom-middle panels whose face we can't really see? The one who seems to be showing mercy to a demon? The one with the short messy black hair and the apparent ability to understand what Night is saying?

I...He...He just...

I can feel this becoming headcanon.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Vine on January 09, 2014, 10:17:17 AM
Gotta say I love that one. Headcanon accepted.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on January 09, 2014, 06:17:38 PM
I ALSO ACCEPT THIS HEADCANON *~*

(Should we make a thread for headcanons?)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: chinonamida on January 13, 2014, 06:21:34 AM
(Though personally I like to think that Lucifer and Mephisto got their bodies at the same time, maybe in related incidents ~200 years ago, and Lucifer's is disintegrating faster because he's more powerful. Because thinking that way makes the thinly-veiled smack talk more intense. "Nice mask lol don't start losing body parts all over my floor okay?" "I'm glad to see that you're still in good health you weaksauce weakling.")
Yeah. With our theory, Lucifer doesn't disintegrate the bodies he possesses at all. O.o. It was never confirmed that was why his body looks like that. (For better or worse.)
If he is the cause of the disintegrating it'd be because of his power or how long he's used the body.  Either way, I'm surprised he's still using it, so I'm going to take the crack theory route for now until proven otherwise because... I just like it XP
If you pay attention, you'll see his collar, gloves and mask getting increasingly bloodied.
If you ask me, he seems to have possessed that body right before he begins his speech and (even though you guys seems to ignore me each time I say this) he seems to leave the body right after he finish his speech.

Was that said in the manga? I will have to look.

Well, normally they would have been conceived at the end of March, right? Does the Tatsuma/Fujimoto event look like it took place in March to you?
In Kyoto it can snow anytime from the start of December to the end of March. And it's colder in the mountains.

Can you c/p the part about spring snows? I can't find it.
I said that back on Mangafox I believe.

Quote
Also even if it's there it guarantees full gestation because May snows are unlikely as hell.
Aren't pregnancies usually nine months?

It doesn't exactly say anything about snow (though he says Shirou would've had to steal Kurikara in spring), but I don't think it's unlikely for it to snow in March or April, especially in the mountains.
I think that's almost exactly what I said, back then.

That depends entirely on Japan's climate, and the height of the mountains. I would think spring snows are incredibly rare.
Thinking more about it now, there's no mountains near Kyoto that gets half the height of Mount Fuji (which is over 12000 feet) where there's snow most than half of the year. Still... it ought to be colder. I never thoroughly studied Japan's weather. Sorry if I'm wrong.

I guess I've got a (really cracky) crack theory. It's not originally mine; I saw it while browsing Pixiv but I cannot for the life of me find the original post again.

Anyway, this person was thinking that Blue Exorcist and the Miyama-Uguisu Mansion Incident could be part of the same continuity if Blue Exorcist comes first. In their theory, Rin is already an exorcist when Night starts training to fight demons, and he acts as a friend/mentor figure to Night. They have similar fighting styles because Rin helped teach Night how to fight, and they look the same because Night spends a lot of time with Rin and it influenced his choice of human form.

It made sense but didn't seem to have any basis in reality whatsoever. And then I looked:
http://mangafox.me/manga/time_killers/v01/c001/23.html

And that exorcist in the bottom-middle panels whose face we can't really see? The one who seems to be showing mercy to a demon? The one with the short messy black hair and the apparent ability to understand what Night is saying?

I...He...He just...

I can feel this becoming headcanon.
That really sounds great  ;D

But isn't there too much differences between the mechanics of the oneshot and the series? That's been a long time since I read it though... Maybe it's worth analyzing.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on January 13, 2014, 06:29:22 AM
(Though personally I like to think that Lucifer and Mephisto got their bodies at the same time, maybe in related incidents ~200 years ago, and Lucifer's is disintegrating faster because he's more powerful. Because thinking that way makes the thinly-veiled smack talk more intense. "Nice mask lol don't start losing body parts all over my floor okay?" "I'm glad to see that you're still in good health you weaksauce weakling.")
Yeah. With our theory, Lucifer doesn't disintegrate the bodies he possesses at all. O.o. It was never confirmed that was why his body looks like that. (For better or worse.)
If he is the cause of the disintegrating it'd be because of his power or how long he's used the body.  Either way, I'm surprised he's still using it, so I'm going to take the crack theory route for now until proven otherwise because... I just like it XP
If you pay attention, you'll see his collar, gloves and mask getting increasingly bloodied.
If you ask me, he seems to have possessed that body right before he begins his speech and (even though you guys seems to ignore me each time I say this) he seems to leave the body right after he finish his speech.

You're right - it does get more and more bloodied; never noticed... I'm sorry that I missed you saying that >.<

Well...it was just a crack theory...*still feels a bit sad*


Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on January 13, 2014, 07:07:27 AM
Hehe. So he was using that body for about 10-15 minutes tops? Wow, lol.

Pretty sure that "mountain" is a tiny hill. 1000-2000 feet up.

In another thread, we have theorized/decide that it doesn't matter when the twins were born. Mephisto can freeze time around them, and he has every reason to do that. (it throws off the Vatican if the twins look many months younger than the supposed "son of Satan" would have been.)

I found something else that gives me a headache timeline wise, so I am going to go over to the timeline thread.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: chinonamida on January 13, 2014, 07:37:59 AM
In another thread, we have theorized/decide that it doesn't matter when the twins were born. Mephisto can freeze time around them, and he has every reason to do that. (it throws off the Vatican if the twins look many months younger than the supposed "son of Satan" would have been.)
But then Satan would know Mephisto was playing in his back.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on January 13, 2014, 08:12:27 AM
How so? When did Satan start caring about the kids anyway? It sounds like he couldn't find them until 2009. At that point it becomes hard to tell if time was stopped around them for several months.

More importantly, does Satan even care that Mephisto is backstabbing him half the time? Because he has had many opportunities to figure that out. Or is he plotting something with Satan?

He could EASILY have told Satan something like "I need to freeze time around your children to fool the exorcists." And Satan would have allowed it.

Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: chinonamida on January 13, 2014, 08:28:33 AM
^I guess we don't know enough about Satan...

Maybe I'm giving him too much credit.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on January 13, 2014, 08:31:17 AM
It could be many things 1) Satan feels he's invincible and doesn't care. 2) Satan's an idiot. 3) Mephisto has a silver tongue, and has Satan fooled with convincing misinformation. 4) Satan and Mephisto really ARE plotting together.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Elaedan on January 13, 2014, 08:41:40 AM
In another thread, we have theorized/decide that it doesn't matter when the twins were born. Mephisto can freeze time around them, and he has every reason to do that. (it throws off the Vatican if the twins look many months younger than the supposed "son of Satan" would have been.)
But then Satan would know Mephisto was playing in his back.

I doubt that Satan knew at first that he concieved any children so he maybe don't know the time and can't fully see the deception?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on January 13, 2014, 08:56:20 AM
Why would Satan want to cause a Blue Knight, though?

Unless you want to say that it wasn't Satan that cause the Blue Night at all, but rather it was Fetus-Rin's knee jerk reaction to having his power sealed. (Which doesn't work or a couple of reasons, but holy shit would I feel sorry for Rin if that were true.)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on January 13, 2014, 05:43:40 PM
It could be many things 1) Satan feels he's invincible and doesn't care. 2) Satan's an idiot. 3) Mephisto has a silver tongue, and has Satan fooled with convincing misinformation. 4) Satan and Mephisto really ARE plotting together.

The funny thing is that all of those sound equally plausible.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on January 13, 2014, 08:49:45 PM
I imagine Satan and Mephisto to be like Aizen and Urahara  from Bleach. Both are smarter and stronger than most in the series, but one is stronger but less inteligent than the other, and both are aware of it.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Elaedan on January 14, 2014, 08:27:52 AM
I imagine Satan and Mephisto to be like Aizen and Urahara  from Bleach. Both are smarter and stronger than most in the series, but one is stronger but less inteligent than the other, and both are aware of it.


Even I haven't ever read or watched Bleach I think the same. Satan's not so nuts he seems( I think it is just act), he could he cunning and extremely smart. Overconfidence or pride might be his weak point~

My sister who adores Mephisto have kind of similar crack of Mephisto. She thinks Mephisto isn't so much into Japan and otaku and stuff - yes he genuinely loved them but half of it is an act for that he seems less threathening and dangerous he might be. Never considered that one myself...
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on January 17, 2014, 07:27:14 AM
Vatican: "Oh, it looks like the human father of the Okumura twins is from the Toudou family."
Yukio: "FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU---!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Toraii212 on January 17, 2014, 08:26:36 AM
Vatican: "Oh, it looks like the human father of the Okumura twins is from the Toudou family."
Yukio: "FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU---!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Toudou: "Yukio...I'm your uncle~~!"
Yukio: "GOD,NOOOOOO...WHY??!!"

you expected this comment didn't you?xD
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on January 17, 2014, 08:35:00 AM
Actually I expected you to call me twisted. :P
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Elaedan on January 17, 2014, 09:50:20 AM
Vatican: "Oh, it looks like the human father of the Okumura twins is from the Toudou family."
Yukio: "FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU---!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Haha cool! We all want Yukio to get A heart attack and do like Luke in SW right? 8"DD so I enjoy this crack!
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: sand dragon on January 17, 2014, 12:16:10 PM
Vatican: "Oh, it looks like the human father of the Okumura twins is from the Toudou family."
Yukio: "FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU---!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Actually I expected you to call me twisted. :P

Why twisted? This thing is hilarious! I'm laughing so hard I'm probably scaring my sisters to death...

Now, Imagine Rin's reaction to Yukio's reaction.. He won't understand why yukio is freaking out ;)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on January 17, 2014, 04:23:39 PM
Rin: Let's go meet our extended family!! Wait Yukio WHY ARE YOU FREAKING OUT?! STOP! They're our family and we should get along!

Yukio: MUST. KILL. EVERYTHING.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Toraii212 on January 17, 2014, 10:16:53 PM
Your comment makes me believe, if Satan has an insane mode than Yukio inherited that to 99%.
and I think I found out why I prefer Shiemi with Yukio rather that with Rin.<-totally unrelated , I know.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on January 17, 2014, 10:55:03 PM
Rin: Let's go meet our extended family!! Wait Yukio WHY ARE YOU FREAKING OUT?! STOP! They're our family and we should get along!

Yukio: MUST. KILL. EVERYTHING.

To be fair, I'd flip out too.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on January 17, 2014, 11:17:29 PM
Even Rin would flip out if his memory was good enough to recognize the name Toudou. And if Toudou had screwed with him in the same way.

I bet the rest of the Toudou family hates Saburouta as much as Yukio does now, so Yukio might calm down. Eventually. There would be a few casualties first. XD
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Wikkelsoee on January 18, 2014, 12:33:39 PM
What? You guys don't think Yukio could get along with Toudou if they tried? You're all so negative. *sarcasm*
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on January 19, 2014, 01:13:26 AM
Wait, are you talking about Toudou Saburouta or the other Toudous?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Wikkelsoee on January 19, 2014, 12:52:07 PM
Saburouta of course. I'm sure they'll be best friends.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on January 19, 2014, 07:23:32 PM
Well if the Yukio Illuminati-face-heel-turn
Theorists are right....
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on January 19, 2014, 07:26:19 PM
Then I will complain that they used the same story twice for the same class.

Unless they kill off Shima immediately, of course. But that's not very likely.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on January 19, 2014, 07:37:05 PM
I am thinking the exact same as you.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Isis-Lied on January 30, 2014, 08:35:17 AM
About the splatter pattern of the hair... I always thought it had something to do w/ the atmosphere of Gehenna (kind of like radiation?) that caused unusual hair colors and it just transferred into the human host after using him or her for a while. But then Lucy showed up and I remembered Izumo has it XD Maybe it has something to do w/ power? Since Rin and Yukio are the weakest of the Baal they don't show it, and if Lucy was in full health/power it would show for him too. As for why Izumo has it, it could have something to do w/ the type of demon blood she has (the foxes we saw in the flashback were a strange mix of beast and human so...) and if we take into account the fact that Rin's demon heart is sealed, it could explain why he doesn't display the splatter pattern (since his nails do elongate and pupils slit when the sword is unsheathed) and if Yukio really inherited zero demon powers.

...Or it could be that it just doesn't work for really dark or really light hair :P

((I would have posted this under Kazue's art thread, but I didn't want it to get off topic))
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Elaedan on January 30, 2014, 12:59:15 PM
^Very interesting, thx for sharing Isis! :33
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Kaibutsu on February 02, 2014, 09:43:06 PM
Shower thought: Lucifer's current host body is Takezou.

Do with that what you will, but I think it might give a nice juicy plot twist as to why Shima is with the Illuminati.
Not giving a crap about people in his life is one thing; not giving crap about people in his life and leading them to their deaths is another.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on February 02, 2014, 09:47:53 PM
Or maybe he feels so guilty over Takezou's death he was told by Todou that Pig Face's experiment with the Kyubi could lead to a serum that would bring back Takezou....
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on February 02, 2014, 10:03:59 PM
^ I don't think RZ cares about Take, to be honest. Pretty sure he's only pretty resentful towards him.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on February 02, 2014, 10:44:56 PM
Well, I mean. Look at it like this.

He was recruited by Todou. Todou cheated Mamushi into believing the IK's eye wasn't safe under Tatsuma's watch by arguing treason basing himself on his role as her teacher and Tatsuma's secrecy when acting.

When Renzou is thinking about leaving Konekomaru behind against the IK, he flashbacks about one of his brothers telling him about Take-nii and living up to him... and complains about not being able to leave duty and family behind as he decides to save Koneko.

Then, the stone the kyubi was sealed in was known as the stone "that gives and takes life". The Illuminati are about "reviving" Satan.

So Todou's tale:

Quote
We want you to look after Izumo so she can take over her mother's role in the Illuminati as the kyubi's medium as she agreed to do. In exchange of Izumo's life the kyubi will give back life to Take-nii.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on February 02, 2014, 11:10:10 PM
Ah I see what you're getting at now! That actually makes a lot of sense then - as RZ will see that his family will be rejoicing over Take being back and they'd hopefully lay off of him, right?

So not really guilty - he's just being selfish. Which, for him, makes sense.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on February 02, 2014, 11:28:18 PM
Being selfish but not so much. He would either be doing it out of real guilt under a "my life costed my brother's" or, as you said, under a "I will live up to my family's expectations by bringing back their favourite son."

It's really the only way I can see him not being beyond the moral events horizon. It would explain while he seemed mildly disappointed/confused at Izumo not being happy when told she had been taken by the Illuminati.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on February 03, 2014, 01:08:24 AM
Then he is still killing Izumo, someone he likes to think he cares about (or has pretended to), for the sake of his dead brother.

If that isn't crossing the moral event horizon, it is VERY close to doing so.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on February 03, 2014, 01:09:26 AM
And then you find out he wants the stone not to bring Take to life, but to freaking kill a bunch of people
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on February 03, 2014, 01:13:21 AM
@tardar

Yeah, it's still morally wrong... but at least it's changing an stranger's life for that of a family member... and he would have believed the stranger wanted to give up his life.

@moon

I'm trying to make him good.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on February 03, 2014, 01:16:46 AM
Unless those people are the Illuminati, that just makes him evil. Maybe he wants to sacrifice another Illuminati member for Takezou. Not Izumo. Hell, it is Lucifer he wants to sacrifice for Take, then that is pretty redeeming. In the eyes of the Order at least.

I also think he's either convinced Izumo won't die, or is just saying things so she will shut up.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on February 03, 2014, 01:23:22 AM
Well, if he believed Izumo was giving them her life willingly (unaware that she is trying to save her sister, not because she believes in their cause), in his eyes he would have been sacrificing an Illuminati.

Someone help me, I'm not good at playing Devil's advocate.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: sand dragon on February 05, 2014, 10:32:51 PM
I have a very very cracky one, thanks moon for inspiring me!

But now I can't help but think Satan (or maybe Iblis, ordered by Satan) wanted to make sure Yukio doesn't find out he's actually not human....bleegghhh
So little clues, so many theories.

So, Satan or Mephisto or Shiro (not sure who) wanted to keep the boys power sealed. But until they found Yuri Rin was already born and they had no choice but to seal his power with kurikara. Yukio weren't born yet at the time, so they made a special seal that can be done only before birth to keep his power hidden. Then Shiro lied to Yukio that his womb was weak and that's the reason he was born human. When the eye incident happend something happened to Yukio's seal, letting him temporary use a little bit of his demon power.

Yes, I know it is very unlikely to happen, but I had to write it down anyway..
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on February 05, 2014, 10:38:27 PM
Then Shiro lied to Yukio that his womb was weak

XD
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on February 05, 2014, 11:26:38 PM
''Yukio, you're womb is too weak, from absorbing all your demon powers and destroying them. Also, you will never be able to have kids because of it ''

''Dad...I'm a guy....''

''......''

Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: facets-and-rainbows on February 06, 2014, 01:56:36 AM
^Some doctor you are, Shiro.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Buttercup on February 06, 2014, 05:57:18 AM
Yukio has to have something. You cant tell me a normal human can live for how ever months Yuri was pregnant, in that close contact with Rin...that he didnt develop something.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on February 06, 2014, 06:00:15 AM
My headcanon/crack theory: Rin gave whoever was connected to him supernatural healing powers while he was in utero.

Though I also like yours. That's why he REALLY can see demons too. He never got an injury, he just has the blood.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: sand dragon on February 06, 2014, 06:09:06 AM
^ And all the years he spent hating the injury his brother gave him.
. All for nothing.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Elaedan on February 06, 2014, 12:11:11 PM
^sounds intriguing! :33 I like that theory~



My Crack;
Maybe nobody burned/got hurt was that Rin unconsciously controlled his flames? You know that in the way baby knows not to breath underwater but then has to learn it again once growing up? So Rin could have been ok with his flames and they were just warm and not hurting anyone? then Yukio would have got mashou just being close to Rin and the flames' warmth ^^"
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Isis-Lied on February 20, 2014, 01:14:59 AM
^Interesting thought, Elaedan ^^

Okay, last thing for now...
In the first/second chapter, when Mephisto tells Rin to change in the limo he remarks on the tie, saying that he 'knows how to tie it well.' His face as he says it seems like a legitimate jab at the fact that Rin only now learned how to tie a necktie properly after Fujimoto's death. And then I wondered, wait, Mephy wasn't anywhere in that scene (they are in the church courtyard when Shiro ties the necktie for Rin), so why does he remark with such finality/sureness?

Either a) he had some sort of familiar or something that let's him see what was going on w/ the church/twins (I doubt he'd expose himself to the twins physically at any time-- Rin had no idea who he was) or b) Shiro called him after Rin's first incident w/ the 'coal tar' (the scene where he blows it away thinking it was a bug)

I lean towards option a mostly because it seems as if Shiro rarely called Mephy-- for whatever reason. Also, did anyone inform Mephisto on how Shiro died? I mean he seemed perfectly alright at the graveyard and I'm pretty sure a Gehenna gate opening is a big deal. I guess Yukio told him eventually, but still... no reaction at the grave. As if he knew about it already. Demon or not, Shiro and Mephisto were friends; not showing any outward emotion would be difficult, unless he mourned right at the time Shiro died.

I dunno, what do you guys think? Do you think Mephy planted something at the church to keep up w/ the twins?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on February 20, 2014, 01:18:57 AM
Mephy is clairvoyant and can turn invisible, but there is some debate if Yukio ever knew Satan opened a Gehenna Gate.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Orange on February 20, 2014, 01:41:07 AM
I cannot believe that Shima is evil. I just... Can't. D:
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: manypets4me on February 20, 2014, 01:42:44 AM
^Either could I, his "familiar" is pretty mysterious too...
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on February 20, 2014, 02:03:25 AM
Mephy is clairvoyant and can turn invisible, but there is some debate if Yukio ever knew Satan opened a Gehenna Gate.

I'm pretty sure Mephy does though. At this point, I just assume by default that he knows everything. Maybe he was using the cockroach trick, or maybe he can actually watch people from a distance (IK fight, anyone?).

As for grieving over Shiro, I'm actually not sure Mephisto is capable of such a thing. He is a demon, after all, and he pretty much told us in our face that the concept of love is lost of him. (http://mangafox.me/manga/ao_no_exorcist/v11/c044/4.html) I think we should regard the guy more as our friendly neighbourhood psychopath, someone who will defend his (and his allies') interests, but who won't shed any tears if things go wrong. If Rin were to get killed now, Mephisto would be momentarily disappointed that his plans got thwarted, but he'd probably move on to plan B before the body hits the ground. If we ever see any sadness from him, I expect it to be way more subtle than looking upset in front of a grave.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: facets-and-rainbows on February 20, 2014, 02:48:04 AM
Maybe he was using the cockroach trick, or maybe he can actually watch people from a distance (IK fight, anyone?).

My headcanon was that since demons can sense each other, Satan is super powerful, and the monastery is pretty close to the school, Mephisto could have just noticed from a distance that Satan was over there and put two and two together. Though I don't doubt that he had the monastery bugged as well.

As for grieving over Shiro, I'm actually not sure Mephisto is capable of such a thing. He is a demon, after all, and he pretty much told us in our face that the concept of love is lost of him. (http://mangafox.me/manga/ao_no_exorcist/v11/c044/4.html) I think we should regard the guy more as our friendly neighbourhood psychopath, someone who will defend his (and his allies') interests, but who won't shed any tears if things go wrong.

Plus even if he DID have a human level of love/compassion, he's immortal and probably used to human friends dying by now. At best it would be like a pet gerbil or something to him--you enjoy its company but you know it won't be around for long even if Satan doesn't kill it.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on February 20, 2014, 03:06:15 AM
^ Makes me wonder about his attitude towards Rin.

Do you think he sees him as more important because he might live longer?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Orange on February 20, 2014, 03:14:37 AM
I agree with basically everything facets-and-rainbows said in her/his last post, except that Mephisto seems to like Amaimon to some degree, considering that he's his brother and also immortal. And he seems to have some respect for his older brother. I don't remember his name... The king of light, I believe.

And a couple of crack theories I have are extremely ridiculous and... Crack.

Theory: Nemu Takara is related to Arthur August Angel.

Theory: Arthur August Angel used to be with Shura but they broke up.

Theory: Something big (like death) is going to happen to one or more of the eight demon kings.

Theory: Mephisto is Satan's spy.

Theory: Mephisto's Honey Honey sisters bathrobe kimono is going to get damaged.

Theory: Yukio will get another mole.

Theory: Sheimi and Izumo will never be actual friends. At least, Izumo won't admit it.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on February 20, 2014, 03:24:25 AM
I agree with basically everything facets-and-rainbows said in her/his last post, except that Mephisto seems to like Amaimon to some degree, considering that he's his brother and also immortal. And he seems to have some respect for his older brother. I don't remember his name... The king of light, I believe.
Lucifer.

Quote
And a couple of crack theories I have are extremely ridiculous and... Crack.

Theory: Nemu Takara is related to Arthur August Angel.
Heh.

Quote
Theory: Arthur August Angel used to be with Shura but they broke up.
I think so too.

Quote
Theory: Something big (like death) is going to happen to one or more of the eight demon kings.
Can demons even die?

I'm still not clear on how you would go around killing one.

Quote
Theory: Mephisto is Satan's spy.
I think it's pretty much a given that he's acting as a double spy for both the Order and Satan.

The question is where his real loyalty lies.

Quote
Theory: Sheimi and Izumo will never be actual friends. At least, Izumo won't admit it.
Probably. They're too different.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on February 20, 2014, 03:27:53 AM
I think only a more powerful demon king would be able to kill another demon king... Or someone really cunning if he/she found a way to weaken said king and use one of the weapons we know can destroy demons (like black or blue flames).
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on February 20, 2014, 06:42:37 AM
Quote
Also, @moon, the god you say is Susanoo, the snake he killed was Orochi (an eight headed monster) and he married Kushi-nada-hime (the last surviving of the 8 daughters of Ashi-nadzuchi and Te-nadzuchi, the other seven had been devoured by Orochi, Susanoo saved Kushinada and marries her).

This reminds me, in regards of Shura's sword, many seem to believe that it's the Kusa-nagi no tsurugi, that Susanoo extracted from Orochi's tail after killing it. But I think it's more likely the Totsuka-no-Tsurugi (also known as Ame-no-Habakiri , Ame-no-Ohabari or Worochi-no-Aramasa, that belonged to Izanagi and he passed down to Susanoo before he abandoned the heavens.

For two reasons:

- the Kusa-nagi no tsurugi belongs tot he Imperial family of Japan, I'm not sure if Kazue would actually go and say it's in the hands of some random person even if Shura has been stated as belonging to a rather important actually historically existing ninja clan.

- the release command, translations vary, says "Slay the serpent that devoured the 7 princesses." and the sword used to slay Orochi was Totsuka-no-Tsurugi, not Kusa-nagi no tsurugi.

Of course, Kazue could always pull Shura's sword being one of the many replicas that were made of Kusa-nagi no tsurugi to prevent the real one being stolen.

Thanks, Archer! I feel so bad when I forget these things DX

I believed that about her sword, too, but now that you list those two reasons, I believe your reasoning more.

Would a replica be able to do what she does with it though?

If the Imperial Sword is a Demon Blade in the Ao no Exorcist Universe, then, for the replicas to cheat the robbers, they should be able to imitate the original's power.

Either way, Kazue could pull a:

"The Totsuka-no-Tsurugi is said to have been the first demon blade, gaining the power of summoning and controlling snakes when it bathed in the blood of the Orochi demon as Susanoo slay it."

or

"The Kusa-nagi no tsurugi was the first demon blade, made out of the body of the Orochi demon, it retained its power to control serpents."
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on February 20, 2014, 06:46:23 AM
Wouldn't they know, though? I mean, it's obviously not going to be as powerful; and if you're going to steal it you'd probably understand what it's capable of.
Or maybe make the replicas be able to kill the robbers or something. *shrugs*

Knowing Katou she could pull anything.

I like the idea of it being the first demon blade, but I have a feeling there are stories older than it out there.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on February 20, 2014, 07:18:36 AM
The  texts telling the mythological origins of Japan are dated as coming from the 8th century with Shinto being founded around the 7th... but they speak of the world from its creation so technically, even if the story was recorded several centuries later, the sword would be as old as the world.

The Nihon Shoki ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihon_Shoki ) signals Emperor Jimmu ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Jimmu ) as the first ruler of Japan in the year 660 BC.

According to tradition, his ancestry goes like this ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_emperors_family_tree ) :

-> Izanagi and Izanami create the land of Japan (Izanami dies giving birth to Kagu-tsuchi,  Izanagi kills the child, goes tot he underworld, fails to bring Izanami back and has a fight with her that causes the beggining of the cycle of life and death for living beings)

-> Amateratsu is born alongside her brothers from Izanagi as he purifies himself,

->  Ame no Oshihomimi no Mikoto ( http://eos.kokugakuin.ac.jp/modules/xwords/entry.php?entryID=41 ) is born from Amateratsu's jewels,

-> Ninigi-no-Mikoto ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninigi-no-Mikoto ) is born from Ame no Oshihomimi and sent to Japan by Amateratsu,

-> Hikohohodemi no Mikoto ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hikohohodemi_no_Mikoto ) is born from Ninigi-no-Mikoto and Konohana-Sakuya-hime ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konohanasakuya-hime )

-> Hikonagisa Takeugaya Fukiaezu no Mikoto ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hikonagisa_Takeugaya_Fukiaezu_no_Mikoto ) was born from Hikohohodemi no Mikoto and  Toyotama-hime ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyotama-hime )

-> Kan'yamato Iwarebiko (Emperor Jimmu) was born from Hikonagisa Takeugaya Fukiaezu no Mikoto and  Tamayori-hime ( http://eos.kokugakuin.ac.jp/modules/xwords/entry.php?entryID=151 )
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on February 20, 2014, 07:32:43 AM
^Of course they'll be older than what is written. I just mean since there is no time in those kind of myths and legends, that it's possible that there were others before that one in particular.
Hell, they could all have been made at the exact same time all around the world.
*Each culture gets its first demon sword thinger*

Shall read through those soon.


-----
Okay now for my crack theory....
Some of it is kinda more probability, but other pieces are more cracky.

So.
Mephisto.
Bear with me and the factual info :P This is going to be messy...Sorry if I forget to include points.

Medieval times: 5th century to the 16th century.
Vatican was built before then, and Rome became Christian before then it seems.
So. 200-ish years before the medieval ages hit.

But, of course, we can be fairly certain Mephisto has been in Assiah for an insanely amount of time - and I believe he's been with True Cross for awhile - I'm thinking the beginning.

Isis brought up that in some cases Mephisto is said to have worked under Lucifer. Maybe he was mistaken for Satan, but I thought...
[Welsh Mythos]
What if one's Gwydion and the other Gilfaethwy? Gwydion is a trickster god, and Gilfaethwy is his brother who also would play tricks. (I'm not sure who is older and who is younger)
I'm thinking Gwydion is Mephisto, since Gwydion is ''a cunning enchanter and patron of the arts and education''.
They do have a whole ''hind and stag incident'' but I'm leaving that out....
Why do I bring this up? Maybe because at this point in time Mephisto and Lucifer were closer, and both enjoyed playing around in Assiah. They obviously both still love Assiah now; just have different ideas and such...
So - maybe they were very close brothers and loved to frolick around and mess with the humans a bit.

Then Christianity came, and eventually, the True Cross.
So, there's Mephy and Lucifer, being treated as gods - and then they become demonized and are hunted. May be fun at first, but I imagine it'd become tiresome after some time.
So, Mephy takes part in forming the True Cross Order to be an exorcist organization instead of a military one. He knows that they need to use different cultures in order to be affective. And, he knows they can use 'demons' to aid them - as it was done by the ''pagans'' before that anyways.
Hence, some demons are put in a bit more safety and Mephy can gladly enjoy his humans and not have to feel like killing them. Throughout the years Mephisto has added his touches to it....

Now, I can't really say when Mephisto officially joined the order, it's obviously been a fair while...but moving on to other things:

Now, we know Mephisto says he's been called ''Loki'', ''trickster'', and ''raven'' and he's been using Mephisto for around (or over) 200 years.
As I posted before:

Quote
The name can also be a combination of three Greek words: "me" as a negation, "phos" meaning light, and "philis" meaning loving, making it mean "not-light-loving", possibly parodying the Latin "Lucifer" or "light-bearer".

And then the Illuminati:
Quote
The movement was founded on May 1, 1776

Now, Lucifer's Illuminati may be newer but...
Going by that date saying that Lucifer started this organization then would possibly say that:

Mephisto and Lucifer came to a point in which they had a disagreement - the one of which we all know about - Assiah. After it became apparent they couldn't agree, they decided to go their separate ways and hope that one would give in.
I'd say this is a possible time when Mephisto joined the Order officially. He could now have the back-up of the exorcists to use, and still have fun in the meantime of course.
And Lucifer went off to create the Illuminati...it got ruined and all but he kept bringing it up out of the ground and such.

And now we are where we are at now.

And I'm going to bed...sorry if I missed points. Pretty sure I did...And I'll read those Archer I sweareth!
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on February 20, 2014, 07:56:39 AM
I have only one problem... I like the general alignment of the ideas but....

In chapter 14 ( http://mangafox.me/manga/ao_no_exorcist/v04/c014/38.html ) is said to have been serving the Order for 200 years.

In chapter 50 ( http://mangafox.me/manga/ao_no_exorcist/v12/c050/14.html ) Yukio explains the real Illuminati collapsed 200 years ago BUT there are many organisations using the name.

This current Illuminati seem to have been operating for a period of between 10 to 20 years ( http://mangafox.me/manga/ao_no_exorcist/v12/c050/15.html ) -the translation says a decade but someone on the forum explained the kanji means a period of time of between 10 to 20 years -

Also, Mephisto told Rin he has been being called like that for 200 years in chapter 39 ( http://mangafox.me/manga/ao_no_exorcist/v10/c039/18.html )

Which make sme thing something quite bad went down between Mephisto and Satan/Lucifer around that time and he said "Screw you, see me dedicate my existence to do everything that you do not want a demon to do."

On a side note, I noted something interesting in this page:

http://mangafox.me/manga/ao_no_exorcist/v04/c014/37.html

The Grigori dude has a slip when he speaks and calls demons "their enemies" and then corrects it to "enemies of Assiah".

I wonder if it means something...
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on February 21, 2014, 04:43:45 AM
Hmm see I forgot about him saying when he joined the order - but it works with what I was saying at least. (The name and time he joined match fairly well.)

I know the Illuminati Lucifer's in was more new, that's why I though maybe it collapsed the first time he tried it. But, it could also be just that they had a disagreement and Lucifer went off and sulked for almost  200 years as well. Or planned stuff.

And Mr.Grigori dude, I now I'm curious as to what that slip means. Thanks for pointing that out Archer.
So what is ''our''? The Grigori? Just the Order? Just people? Daaaamn we'll probably never know...
Maybe he hates demons to the core but knows the Order relies on them so he's not allowed to hold such thoughts or something.
*shrug*
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on February 21, 2014, 05:10:34 AM
Well, maybe the Grigori are kind of old fashioned in their way of thinking and wish they could do like in the old days where they labelled the gods of all the other religions as demons and hunted down people who worshipped them.

I think Kazue is trying to separate the historical Illuminati from Lucifer's group. The historical Illuminati goals were quite good while Lucy's Illuminati sound quite sectarian.

Now I'm thinking, maybe the original Illuminati belonged to Mephisto (their collapse and the time he joined the Order are the same). Before he joined, the Order would refuse to acknowledge not all demons are treats or accept people with demon blood... until something went down that forced the Vatican to join forces with other religions where it was common for people to form clans and share their blood with demons and have pacts with them to access their power.

I really think 200 years ago is a key event to the story... but I don't think we have any more clues about that date than the ones I already mentioned.

Or did any other character mention an event taking place 200 years before the current storyline?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on February 21, 2014, 05:29:00 AM
That's possible.
I wonder if the Grigori can even actually do any exorcist stuff.

Yeah, you're probably right that she is.

I wondered about that, too, briefly. But I'm not sure how to connect Mephisto to the original Illuminati; doesn't even seem his style to me, personally.

Sounds like something the order would do.

Again, I think you may be right. I think there will be more mentions of stuff ''200 years ago'' later in the manga. Most things mentioned seemed to take place more than 100 years ago, but no more than 200 if I remember correctly.

I really need to re-read the manga to remember stuff... I wish I had the missing volumes so I could sit in bed and read through them easier T~T
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on February 21, 2014, 05:39:32 AM
Well, when Mephisto gave his speech about the "3 desires" he mentioned he, too, yearned for knowledge of many things that escaped him, and the original Illuminati were enemies of the Vatican because they would seek knowledge and refuse imposed truth (and wanted gender equality).

One of Mpehisto's questions was about why Assiah and Gehena existed in the way they did. Maybe Mephisto was working on that with the Original Illuminati and the Vatican didn't like that there was a group putting angels in the same category than demons or "pagan" gods. Until Lucy decided to show up and attack with an army of... angels...
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on February 21, 2014, 06:21:56 AM
True enough.
So...possible collapse because Mephisto realized that the Vatican has a huge freaking library full of stuff the Vatican doesn't even know is there? //Different than what I was originally going to type but I forgot what it was....

uhmm...*facedesk*

Or maybe Mephisto was intending to break apart the Illuminati so that the Vatican didn't know he was a part of it, he could gain their trust, and then eventually reform the Illuminati with a stronger spy than any human or demon they could summon amongst it.

This isn't what I origanally thought and it's killing me. I know it was something that had a good point..Arghh curse you brain! FHAGYASGIHASGIH
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on February 21, 2014, 06:28:43 AM
Earlier today I logged into the forum with a very specific objective and I forgot what it was and I'm still trying to remember it... Do not worry.

The Vatican has the remnants of the Library of Alexandria... That's why once I had a dream where Mephisto had a daughter who was Hipatia of Alexandria...
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on February 21, 2014, 06:50:48 AM
The Vatican has much much much more than that, though.
It's almost an information paradise.

But there has to be more to it than that...
The Vatican is so powerful...do you think there is something else Mephisto would want besides knowledge? Or power?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on February 21, 2014, 07:04:30 AM
Yes, they have other books... I just though you were speaking about the Library of Alexandria because it was the largest recollection of knowledge of the Ancient world (and even with that, it is said to actually have been composed from the remnants of another even older library).

I don't know, maybe Satan is really hard to kill and Mephisto is looking for the weapon to do it (will laugh her ass off is said weapon is Caliburn).

The only other thing I can think of is going back to the idea of Gehena being a post-apocalyptic place and Mephisto wants to restore it with human technology since demon magic has failed to do it.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on February 21, 2014, 07:12:02 AM
I accept your Gehenna headcanon Archer! *goes back to her little corner*
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on February 21, 2014, 05:48:09 PM
Oh no I was talking about their entire collection xD
I wish I could go in there.
Though, majority of it I probably couldn't read anyways because it'll be in Latin (and maybe some Greek? Probably....).

Haha I don't think humans will have the answer to destroy Satan unfortunately. Unless. Aliens. xD

I accept that headcanon along with tardar xD
I like that idea. Mephisto obviously loves humans and their entertainment and such; must be a valid reason if he wants to make Gehenna better.
Maybe he wants to be able to watch anime in Gehenna even xD
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on February 21, 2014, 06:08:12 PM
He may want to make Gehenna subservient to Assiah and import all of the technologies for demons' :D Along with restoring Gehenna ofc.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on February 21, 2014, 09:23:31 PM
Maybe maybe~
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on February 21, 2014, 10:59:02 PM

Haha I don't think humans will have the answer to destroy Satan unfortunately. Unless. Aliens. xD

Or, mashing up with the theory where some demons created the division between Assiah and Gehena to stop Satan...

Satan isn't all powerful naturally but stole the power of other demons by "devouring" their demon hearts, like, maybe there was an entire kin of demons with Blue Flames but Satan was the stronger (or more cunning) and absorbed their power to become unique. So, then, the demons that separated the worlds left a weapon or the secret to kill Satan hiddedn in Assiah... Or maybe I'm thinking too much along the lines of Harry potter with Voldemort using the Horrocruxes to make himself immortal...
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on February 21, 2014, 11:16:55 PM
Yeah, but it at least makes Satan fallible. I like this theory, especially where he devoured the demon hearts. It's sort of like Night. Except Night only took one.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on February 21, 2014, 11:30:10 PM
Maybe that's way there are demons (like kitsunes) that do not seem to fit a kin. Maybe there wenre't kins originally. Actually, Mike mad eit sound like kitsunes have their own boss and their ranks.

Night?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on February 21, 2014, 11:36:28 PM
Rin's prototype from the Miyama Uigusu Mansion Incident. He gained a lot of power from dealing ANOTHER demon's heart in Not!Kurikara.

Anyway, yes. It is my personal theory that the nonkin existed before he gained power, and Kin-demons are descended from Satan and the 8 kings after he gained power.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on February 21, 2014, 11:45:07 PM
I don't think the kings are the fathers of that many demons. Maybe we should go to the Gehena thread, we had something already theorised about the reason each King has a different power there....
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on February 22, 2014, 12:59:53 AM
I dunno, anything we could theorize about how the other demons were given birth to could be pretty cracky.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on February 22, 2014, 01:21:00 AM
I found it, we were considering Satan having had each King from a different mother... that way their special abilities would come from the mother and Satan would only have the flames.

So, I think either Satan:

- aside from getting rid of whatever other demons of his same kin that existed, devoured the power of the most powerful demons of the other kings to rule them and then passed down an specific power of those to each of the kings.

- he had a son with a demoness of each kin so each king has the power of their mother amplified by Satan's strength, also this served him to have a blood bond to each kin.

- he simply had his sons devour the power of a different kin each, after they were born.

Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on February 22, 2014, 01:30:53 AM
Yeah, I give credence to the kin theory if Satan devoured others of his own kind and wasn't the first demon...Personally I'm not too fond of the kins existing before Satan, but I'll think about it some more. Though I'd have to think Satan raped said mothers...also, it kind of conflicts with my idea of Gehenna being a free-for-all, with less organized societies than those that exist among humans, because everyone is out for themselves...
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on February 22, 2014, 02:42:56 AM
It might depend on how Gehenna was made. If it was always separate, it could be much different than how people in Assiah live. Go with the theory of them splitting (I think this makes the most sense, personally) and then the demons have an idea of how people in Assiah do them already and begin basis from that.

Here's another possible theory that mixes some things:

Before Assiah and Gehenna was split, Satan was a powerful demon, and fought and devoured other demons to slowly become even more powerful over time. Eventually, the split between worlds occured.
Not sure how this happened;
but do you think any of the demons who helped ''seal'' him in Gehenna were allowed to stay in Assiah, and the rest had to go to Gehenna to live? Even if you weren't siding with Satan or ''evil''; just because they weren't helping create Gehenna they ended up getting locked there?
It doesn't make too much sense but it's a thought.

And I think Satan took both temporary lovers and also raped in order to create the demon kings. He just seems like that kind of person to me.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on February 22, 2014, 02:51:05 AM
I think that everything that had magic got dragged to the Gehena side, that's why to grant clans like the Kamiki magic demons had to create half-breeds. But also humans might have some magic naturally, the other day I was reading about Shinto for my rp OC and I found this:

http://sakikikuhoshino.tumblr.com/post/76791514703/so-looking-up-about-shinto-prayers-i-think-i

Which, going by Japanese beliefs, would explain why we have seen fatal verses coming from texts of different religions. It's not the "veracity" of the text but the way the words are arranged that drive demons away.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on February 22, 2014, 03:11:20 AM
^ That works, too.
I much like that idea - especially since if there are mistranslations it won't matter.

How do you think they chose what went over to Gehenna?
Humans with magics were probably kept in Assiah for the obvious reasons. But what did they decide were demons and what weren't? I mean, Coal Tar are pretty harmless really, right?

Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on February 22, 2014, 03:21:54 AM
Perhaps Kin demons all went, and non-kin demons stayed.

Speaking of which, Karura and Ucchusma are non-kin, surprisingly.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on February 22, 2014, 03:29:34 AM
I imagine demons and humans existed like two different races, there might or not have been interbreed between the two (going by the Japanese creation myths where kamis are constantly going down from Heaven to get married to "earthy divinities", it likely happened).

Or maybe all humans have demon blood, just that this blood was already very thin by when Assiah and Gehena were divided, that's why they can use fatal verses or do seals but only those with demon blood from after the split can tame.

@tardar

Aren't Uchussma and Karura fire demons? Or do you mean because their profiles didn't say they belonged to Iblis?

I like that logic, but the byakkos profile said they were demons that possessed animals to act as messengers of the gods. Which makes me wonder if those gods are demons to powerful to exist within a vessel in Assiah or if they exist in Assiah without vessels (Mike said the land of the Shimane Inari Shrine was ruled by the harvest god he served).
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on February 22, 2014, 03:53:42 AM
Personally, I think human souls are demonic, but bodies aren't. And somehow, the souls and bodies stopped being separate and the formerly demonic souls were corrupted by Assiah somehow. And then time passed.

I think I have said this before...
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on February 22, 2014, 03:55:43 AM
Ye,s I remember you mentioning something about it... so, ghosts would be actual human souls?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on February 22, 2014, 04:01:00 AM
Ghosts are Azazel's poor attempt at copying the human soul, if they are separate things....which they are implied to be...otherwise, yes.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on February 22, 2014, 04:08:27 AM
I think it would be more logical for ghosts to be actual human souls because so far the only effective methods to exorcise them seem ways that make them "rest" like chanting sutras/mantras or fulfilling their wishes (at least in the more humanoid cases). And it didn't look like they were going back to Gehena when Shiemi or Takara did those.

Or maybe they are some sort of demon that lacks their own mind and feeds on the emotions left behind by humans?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: facets-and-rainbows on February 22, 2014, 05:12:32 AM
Or maybe they are some sort of demon that lacks their own mind and feeds on the emotions left behind by humans?

I think their entry in the little demon profiles in the tankoubon extras said something to that effect.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on February 22, 2014, 05:15:34 AM
We have their translated entry? I recall the Japanese version because I used it to prove Azazel reigned both over spirits and air but I can't read enough Japanese to make out the rest.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on February 22, 2014, 05:34:42 AM
Yeah, it's in an early volume
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Desktop Warrior on February 28, 2014, 01:26:49 AM
Mephisto's allusion to a 'wager' between himself and Satan in one of the earlier chapters makes me think that he was actually the mastermind behind Shirou's death. I think that Mephisto and Satan have an on-and-off war going on, primarily through intrigue, and by arranging it so that Satan could kill one of his most potent enemies, Mephisto gained some sort of concession.

(Apologies if this has been mentioned before. It came to me just now, when reading through Yukio's thread.)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on February 28, 2014, 02:32:43 AM
Mephisto's allusion to a 'wager' between himself and Satan in one of the earlier chapters makes me think that he was actually the mastermind behind Shirou's death. I think that Mephisto and Satan have an on-and-off war going on, primarily through intrigue, and by arranging it so that Satan could kill one of his most potent enemies, Mephisto gained some sort of concession.

(Apologies if this has been mentioned before. It came to me just now, when reading through Yukio's thread.)

It has not. AND I like it! I am also going to use that in a fic I am writing if you don't mind....
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Desktop Warrior on February 28, 2014, 02:55:00 AM
I don't mind at all! In fact, any theory or idea that I post here or on tumblr is free for anyone to use wherever they like.

Maybe I'm just paranoid, but it's gotten to the point where I see Mephisto's hand in everything. Even if something wasn't originally part of his plans, he's able to use it to some benefit of his own.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on February 28, 2014, 03:54:59 AM
I don't mind at all! In fact, any theory or idea that I post here or on tumblr is free for anyone to use wherever they like.

Maybe I'm just paranoid, but it's gotten to the point where I see Mephisto's hand in everything. Even if something wasn't originally part of his plans, he's able to use it to some benefit of his own.

That's called being observant. His hand IS in everything. If you're living in AoEx and Mephisto doesn't scare the shit out of you, something is wrong.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Elaedan on February 28, 2014, 05:36:56 AM
I don't mind at all! In fact, any theory or idea that I post here or on tumblr is free for anyone to use wherever they like.

Maybe I'm just paranoid, but it's gotten to the point where I see Mephisto's hand in everything. Even if something wasn't originally part of his plans, he's able to use it to some benefit of his own.

That's called being observant. His hand IS in everything. If you're living in AoEx and Mephisto doesn't scare the shit out of you, something is wrong.
Yes, Mepphy would definitely twist every coming option to his own plan like Palpatine in Star Wars! His A big fish gamer so I would be bewared of him...





And rofl I just laughed so much at the idea of Caliburn and Umbrella's sass contest xDD but seriously, I totally wait too when the Umbrella joins the fight! (Btw what do you think is the Umbrella A demon or just enchanted/created thing of Mephisto? Does the character book give any hint?) sorry I took this from another thread ^^
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: siyrean on February 28, 2014, 12:54:42 PM
I was just rereading some chapters and i'm now convinced the order doesn't know who exactly Mephisto is. the legend of Faust has been around since Elizabethan times but he'd only been using that name for 200 years. He needed to be a powerful demon for the order, but if they knew he was a King, there's no way they could think they could bring him to trial or hold him accountable in any respect. And the way they acted towards Rin just seemed really hypocritical if they were already working with a King of hell.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on February 28, 2014, 05:18:31 PM
Ohhhhh, hm. So he is pretending to be the actual Mephistopheles, and the real Mephistopheles is another demon entirely?

I like.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Isis-Lied on February 28, 2014, 07:23:42 PM
Lol, that would make a lot of sense actually (pretending to be Mephistopheles). I assume many of the Order/Vatican members would have at least heard of the play. As such, Samael decided to pretend to be Mephy and that's partly why he dresses in theatrical clothing (for lack of better words) and exhibits personality traits similar to legend!Mephistopheles. Not to mention dressing like a clown has its benefits because Samael could look pretty terrifying if he was wearing the right clothes.

So yes, I really like the idea :3
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on February 28, 2014, 07:42:44 PM
It could explain his hesitance to confirm whether he is the Mephistopheles from the play or not. The true Mephistopheles would have to be in on it, and lie low for a while. I'm thinking Mephistopheles is also one of the highest  ranking time/space demons around, less so than Samael but not your average demon either. That also means he works UNDER Samael, so of course he will let him do as he wishes. If demons can feel such things, he might even be flattered.

This is more of a headcanon, but I believe there are nobility rankings under the Kings, demons who eclipse high level demons but can't be considered anywhere near the level of the Baal. I keep thinking the 72ish demons from the Lesser Key of Solomon are these guys...As well as famous demons like Mephistopheles and four of the seven representatives of Sin.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on February 28, 2014, 08:36:52 PM
Well, maybe there isn't a "real Mpehistopheles" and Samael just took the name because he liked it and the powers of Goethe's Mephistopheles fit his own...

Or maybe Belial is the real Mephistopheles and has given up his name to his King for a while.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on February 28, 2014, 08:42:42 PM
Hmm I think I like Belial being the real one if there was a real Mephy before our Samael-Mepphy~
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on February 28, 2014, 08:47:55 PM
^ You mean if there was a real Faust?

I'm still wondering what happened to the guy. I guess the most logical explanation is that Mephy body-napped him and then pretended to be his own children/grandchildren.

Which makes me wonder, can demons choose what the host body looks like? Like, could he decide to appear older if he wanted to?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on February 28, 2014, 09:06:54 PM
I don't know for other demons, but I would expect age to be covered by Mephisto's shapeshifting abilities.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Isis-Lied on February 28, 2014, 09:15:10 PM
I agree w/ Archer. Maybe Mephy (when he goes out in public) lets himself appear to slowly age w/ his host but uses different hairstyles, etc. to appear like he's aged differently each time. So he's pretended to be his grandfather, father, etc. XD I think it would be possible for him to age himself and then rejuvenate himself, given his title as King of Space and Time.

As for whether Mephisto is the real Mephisto from legend... well, I'm sure something from his past will be revealed eventually. He's always been interested in human culture and aesthetic. That's why his mansion has a European vibe to it. He could have shifted his interest from European to Asian (and more specifically, Japanese) in recent years. It fits w/ original!Mephistopheles interests in humans, after all.

Honestly, I think he is the Mephistopheles from the Faust tale, but doesn't want to reveal too much about himself :P


Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on February 28, 2014, 09:18:25 PM
If he were Mephistopheles from the Faust tale, the Vatican MIGHT know that Mephistopheles = Samael, defeating the point of using the name. Even if they didn't it would be risky.

I like it being Belial too.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Elaedan on February 28, 2014, 10:59:09 PM
Sorry Late party joiner again...


But intriguing I don't know what to think. Both the idea that Mephisto is the real Mephistopheles and that he has adapted the name makes sense and are fitting explanations. Then again Faust might have created the demon for his play and Mepphy liked it so much that he took the name.
Or could it be that Mephisto really had A wager/interaction with Faust and he used Mephisto as a model for his play and Mephisto is Faust's alias which he called king of Time (if somehow he doesn't want others to know that he has interacted with A demon king for unknown reason).


But then again I just believe that Order really doesn't know the real identity of Mephisto. There is really no way they would work with son of Satan or one of the Baal that closely and have certain amount of trust. (But that we have already discussed and agreed?~)

And yes, Mephisto sure can change his appereance to his liking, but if the Order knew he was A demon it would be pointless to shapeshift, right? So how long Excatly they have know they work with A demon is interesting. In public he surely shapeshifts~

And would the name of demon be important/can they have record of the all variations etc? Just crossed my mind that on Amaimon's (and maybe other demon Kings') profile said 'known in different names different times' so even they knew the real names and had records for them is it relevant? Demons are deceiving and unreliable so I bet you shouldn't believe what they tell you as their name/never should trust that info is right ^^" hope you understand what I am after, can't type clearer atm >____<



//I hate my Iphone. It guesses my words wrong and I have to all the time edit my posts -.-//
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on February 28, 2014, 11:47:29 PM

And yes, Mephisto sure can change his appereance to his liking, but if the Order knew he was A demon it would be pointless to shapeshift, right? So how long Excatly they have know they work with A demon is interesting. In publish he surely shapeshifts~

The changing his appearance is more for the public who don't know of demons than for the order.

Quote
And would the name of demon be important/can they have record of the all variations etc? Just crossed my mind that on Amaimon's (and maybe other demon Kings') profile said 'known in different names different times' so even they knew the real names and had records for them is it relevant? Demons are deceiving and unreliable so I bet you shouldn't believe what they tell you as their name/never should trust that info is right ^^" hope you understand what I am after, can't type clearer atm >____<

Yeah I got you. Sometimes name changes are just a course of time (like how ''treow'' from Anglo-Saxon (Old English) became ''tree'' and ''true'') or translating into other languages, though.

I do agree a demon will probably not tell you it's real name, though. Hell, Samael may still be just a preference name. Demons in Gehenna may not even have a name of their own for all we know.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on March 01, 2014, 12:20:30 AM
I thought Mephisto was his preference name. It seems to be the one he's using with everyone except for his brothers.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on March 01, 2014, 12:23:40 AM
A preference name. I wouldn't be surprised if he has more than one preferable name.


Small crack:
The demons didn't have a name until they:

(gehenna and Assiah split theory):
The humans had to give them names in order to send them to Gehenna

(Gehenna and Asshiah were always separate theory):
Until they came to Assiah and were given names.

Some even gave themselves names.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on March 01, 2014, 12:36:27 AM
Crack accepted.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on March 01, 2014, 04:18:23 AM
I dunno. Lucifer doesn't seem like the type to care about his brother's preferences, so if he calls him Samael, I think that's pretty official.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: facets-and-rainbows on March 01, 2014, 07:36:18 AM
I like it that way though, because it explains why they can have names in human languages like Hebrew and Latin that might not have existed when they were born (yeah, I imagine both Samael and Lucifer to be SUPER old, as in remembers-when-humans-invented-fire old).
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on March 01, 2014, 07:38:50 AM
Good point! Though the names may be close to what they are in the Demonic tongue.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: siyrean on March 01, 2014, 01:12:47 PM
another thought I had, is what if Mephisto was planning on pulling a Dumbledore. Meaning, Rins a sacrificial lamb for the ends. Like if he planned to get Satan to possess him, and some how trap him in a mortal body so he can then be killed.

I'm not sure on this, as I don't see Shiro agreeing. But I also don't think Mephisto has any interest in taking over Gehenna. He really doesn't seem to give two shits about the place and would rather frolic/keep Satan away, from his favourite playground. I see that as his concern, and reason for helping the True Cross. Humans are his entertainment. He doesn't want to lose that.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Elaedan on March 01, 2014, 01:47:00 PM
I like it that way though, because it explains why they can have names in human languages like Hebrew and Latin that might not have existed when they were born (yeah, I imagine both Samael and Lucifer to be SUPER old, as in remembers-when-humans-invented-fire old).

Same here! I really like their 'real' Baal names but it just crossed my mind ^^"

And what if Latin etc have evolved from demonic tongue? (Got idea from Tardar's last post)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on March 02, 2014, 12:37:01 AM
I was going through Arthur scenes for the fic when I came across when they call Mephisto to see the Gehena Gate... If they do not know he is Samael the King of Time, and believe he is some random high ranking time.space demon, why did they expect him to be able to close the Gehena Gate? It can only be opened by Satan, so, if they expected him to be able to close it, they must know he is of Satan's blood. Also he said "not even I can stop time forever" which sounds like he is saying "if I, being the King of Time, can't do it, nobody else can".
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on March 02, 2014, 12:47:08 AM
Yeah. That's why, if they do not know he is Samael, they think he is a big shot time and space demon.

But even the phantom train can travel to Gehenna, just not with Satan's gate. What that is, is a dimensional rip, which time/space demons specialize in.

About 80%-90% likelihood they know who he is tho'.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on March 02, 2014, 01:07:47 AM
I was aiming at that the Gehena Gate can only be made by Satan, even if other time-space demons can travel between worlds, they wouldn't expect a demon not linked to Satan by blood to be able to close it.

tardar senpai tell me what you think about my Yuri design in the other thread...
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on March 02, 2014, 01:21:47 AM
But they'd be able to expect the upper level time-space demon to do something about a Gehenna Gate NOT made by Satan. Whatever this thing is, it's probably different than a "true" Gehenna Gate. If it can be made by humans, it can be closed by any demon that can alter dimensions. Or so they believe, but it turns out to be very very close to a true Gehenna Gate.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on March 02, 2014, 01:28:33 AM
Yeah, that's the other thing I would like to know, how did Lightning tell it apart from the true Gehena Gate so easily? Sure, it was coming from a machine and it didn't look like the one Satan made to take Rin, actually, it would be more accurate to wonder how he recognised it to be a Gehena Gate at all...
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on March 02, 2014, 01:44:13 AM
BECAUSE YOUR FANFIC IS TOTALLY RIGHT AND YURI TOLD HIM ABOUT IT.

Or he's seen a real Gehenna Gate in photographs.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on March 02, 2014, 01:50:30 AM
lol, yes, you see, this it totally the hint we were waiting for, Yuri x Lightning people. Yuri told them to go for the Artificial Gehena Gate, they couldn't have known it was a Gehena Gate with the way it looked if someone else didn't tell them before hand...

Well, I would guess they have illustrations of the Gate form the time sit has appeared but then you have that second question and Lightning's creepy pupils...
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on March 02, 2014, 01:55:12 AM
Lightning has straight teeth and ears. So he's not a half. He's at most a quarter, but also possibly thinly blooded like Izumo.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on March 02, 2014, 01:57:59 AM
I will go with quarter...

Actually wondering what determines that some people with thin demon blood get weird eyes (like the Hojo sisters) and others get weird hair (Izumo).
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on March 02, 2014, 02:01:53 AM
The type of demon they bred with. The Hojo may have bred with snakes, and the Kamikis with foxes.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on March 02, 2014, 02:04:31 AM
*Has sudden mental image of all the Hojo being bald because snakes don't have hair*
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Elaedan on March 02, 2014, 12:11:19 PM
Rofl bald Hojos! xD they all also have some weird tattoos, or could those be repeile scales/skin?

And Izumo has also strange eyebrows because of the demon blood?


But they'd be able to expect the upper level time-space demon to do something about a Gehenna Gate NOT made by Satan. Whatever this thing is, it's probably different than a "true" Gehenna Gate. If it can be made by humans, it can be closed by any demon that can alter dimensions. Or so they believe, but it turns out to be very very close to a true Gehenna Gate.

I agree - Satan is seen rarely in Assiah because his body issues so Gehenna gates are made rarely also which would explain their lacking knowledge on them. It's not like they have been able to research those things~
But I am also confused how Lightning could tell that it is artificial Gehenna gate and not some other gate to Gehenna created by A powerful space and time demon...
Plus yes, Mephisto's words are unsettling... But Order knowing makes still less sense imo - why to trust fully matured demon king (and son of Satan no less) if they are going to murder at sight Satan's half-blood son who doesn't possess any real danger yet...?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Isis-Lied on March 02, 2014, 12:40:46 PM
I don't really think the Order trusts Mephy. We don't know what he's done to the Order prior to becoming an Honorary Knight. Perhaps his status was an exchange: like he gave them knowledge about the Gehenna Gate, Satan, etc. for his role in the Order. Besides, if we assume the higher-ups know Mephisto's true rank as a demon king, it wouldn't exactly be wise to piss said demon off. They are all super respectful of him, after all, calling him Sir Pheles and stuff when he passed through the door on the way to the artificial Gehenna Gate. Furthermore, he did create those keys. I'm sure they've been very helpful to the Order at least, if we consider that being the only thing he did other than protecting the Japanese Branch of the Order.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on March 02, 2014, 05:03:22 PM
True. Actually they are probably scared shitless.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Wikkelsoee on March 02, 2014, 07:31:13 PM
I would be scared shitless too if I were them. Seriously, he can spy on you while you shower if that what he wants.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Isis-Lied on March 02, 2014, 07:58:54 PM
Amaimon totally got his weird binocular hands thingy from seeing Mephisto spy on humans, lol Actually, it wouldn't surprise me if Mephy was a bit of a voyeur-- he has a huge window in his office, after all.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on March 02, 2014, 08:09:07 PM
He did say something to that effect while spying on Yukio.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Kaibutsu on March 03, 2014, 12:13:12 AM
Another shower thought: Shima's fear of bugs comes from some sort of run in with Beelzebub.

That might be a nice way to start introducing the other kings.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on March 03, 2014, 09:13:23 AM
I like that idea!

If that were so, maybe Beezlebub is with Lucifer then? Maybe spying on Shima, figuring him out and all...had a slip up, was exposed. RZ = scarred for like. Or something....
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on March 04, 2014, 12:47:28 AM
Spur of the moment thing...

Lucifer likes how Rin (maybe Yukio?......) turned out, so he's decided he wants to half a half-demon child of his own.

He plans to use either Izumo, or Shiemi, if possible. (May use another one, but he desires one of them more).

Originally I was going to say use Yukio as a temporary vessel just for the hell of it...but nah....
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: BrilliantAkane on March 04, 2014, 05:29:16 PM
Well it seems Rin and Yukio are going to be uncles then :D
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on March 04, 2014, 07:16:29 PM
I don't think they'll be happy uncles if the mother is Izumo or Shiemi though xD

I forgot to add: Maybe that's why he had the twins monitored partially. He wanted to watch them grow up and feel like a good brother or something.
I don't even know osjfhidhf
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: BrilliantAkane on March 04, 2014, 09:23:05 PM
Thanks to you i'm shipping IzumoxLuciferxShiemi
 
Ahh I see Lucifer's just trying to get to know his little brothers by monitoring their every move, I can picture him taking notes while watching them from a surveillance camera 
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Lonestar on March 04, 2014, 11:43:21 PM
Ok this very crazy but with if izumo is related to Satan family in some way? For some reason I could see lucy as her father for some reason  :o

I think it the hair thing or worst she could be mephy daughter idk
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: BrilliantAkane on March 04, 2014, 11:52:50 PM
If Luce was Izumo's father wouldn't that make Rin and Yukio her uncles?? This family just got more screwed up
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on March 04, 2014, 11:56:35 PM
With that kind of age differences, Rin and Yukio are bound to have a couple of great-great-grandnieces running around that are several thousand years older than them.

... I want to meet them.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Isis-Lied on March 04, 2014, 11:58:01 PM
When I first started the anime and saw Mephisto and Izumo I actually thought they were related ^^' The school mysteries arc when it appeared that Mephy was taking an interest in Izumo, I thought maybe the crack theory held some water; but then the real reason showedand everything went to hell
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: BlooCloud on March 05, 2014, 12:00:56 AM
Thanks to you i'm shipping IzumoxLuciferxShiemi
 
Ahh I see Lucifer's just trying to get to know his little brothers by monitoring their every move, I can picture him taking notes while watching them from a surveillance camera

Hahaha! Love this!

"Mmm...so he chose the chocolate cupcake over the vanilla one..."
*Scribbles furiously and then stares intently back at the screen*

I think you just gave me a wonderful story idea, haha!
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on March 05, 2014, 12:07:26 AM
*Sits here wondering if this is a ''what have I done moment'' or if I should be happy about it.*

I think I'm going to enjoy anything you guys come up from this xD

Bloo, if you make that story I wanna read it xD

Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Lonestar on March 05, 2014, 12:12:24 AM
With that kind of age differences, Rin and Yukio are bound to have a couple of great-great-grandnieces running around that are several thousand years older than them.

... I want to meet them.
Me too!!
If Luce was Izumo's father wouldn't that make Rin and Yukio her uncles?? This family just got more screwed up
Now that im thinkimg about it even more...wouldn't it be weird that lucy's daughter be at the true cross academy in the first place...when both *ahem* lucy and mephy are not in good terms? That might explain be another reason why he got her out of there pretty early.

Or just found he have two daughter
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: BrilliantAkane on March 05, 2014, 01:23:10 AM
@themoonlandian you should be happy about it, now we have the crackiest fic idea ever!
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: BlooCloud on March 05, 2014, 02:48:49 AM
*Sits here wondering if this is a ''what have I done moment'' or if I should be happy about it.*

I think I'm going to enjoy anything you guys come up from this xD

Bloo, if you make that story I wanna read it xD

Haha, you should be ecstatic.
And trust me, I feel like this story will find itself on paper soon enough. xD
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: BrilliantAkane on March 05, 2014, 03:24:08 AM
I would love to read it if you did write it XD but I imagine Lucifer wouldn't only spy on the twins using secret cameras but by hiding in the dumbest places like behind bushes outside, underneath a desk in cram school, ect.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on March 05, 2014, 03:36:04 AM
@BrILLIANT, stop, this is turning into Salaryman chapter material those it must be drawn
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Isis-Lied on March 05, 2014, 08:39:51 AM
Hey look, it's random crack theory time that really has nothing to do w/ the current plot :P

Remember the last time we saw Amaimon? Ya know, Mephy's pocket dimension, held up on metal spikes? My best bet is that if Amaimon returns to the plot/story anytime soon, it will be as a permanent sparring partner for Rin. I have two theories on how he'll be returned to the plot (given how high he scored on the popularity pole despite barely being there for 20+ chapters I doubt he'll be stuck in Mephy's cuckoo clock for long).

Either Mephisto's going to do something horrible since he can control time and make it so millenniums pass in the cuckoo clock while it's only been weeks outside, making it so he either loses his memory of Rin/himself entirely (he did tell Amaimon that he couldn't leave until he stopped wanting to kill Rin, after all) or Amaimon's going to escape at some point and freaking lose it, making Mephisto destroy his current host (if he hasn't already lost it) and have to find another one and he'll still have his weird horn thing. I just really love Amaimon, okay?

And on a side note, stalker!Lucy is definitely something that needs to be drawn/made into a fanfic.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Elaedan on March 05, 2014, 09:12:23 AM
Yes, let Amaimon loose!


Oh I though btw the same. Lucifer definitely stalks his brothers and he tells himself "it is only to keep them safe and in line!" Yes, keep telling yourself that...
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on March 05, 2014, 07:25:24 PM
Ooh I like the first one!! Though I do want Amaimon to still have a bit of anger at Rin, still ^^;;;
I don't wanna see Amaimon have to get a new host though, I like how he looks now >.< haha
I do hope Amaimon is let out after they get out from the Illuminati at least :O
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Isis-Lied on March 05, 2014, 07:55:45 PM
I just miss broccoli-head ouch, Shima said that, didn't he? T-T Wouldn't it be funny if Mephy's 'back-up' (assuming he had any) in case whatever his plan was failed, was for Amaimon to show up and help I know he's ranked 7th and all but still. Who knows, Amaimon and Lucy could have an okay relationship; though, I think he'd be somewhat upset if Assiah ceased to exist. I think that's how Amaimon may become a reluctant ally later on in the story: if someone tells him that he won't have games/candy for his amusement any more if the artificial Gehenna Gate opens fully.

I dunno, I feel like Amaimon would do a lot for candy
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on March 05, 2014, 08:18:24 PM
I dunno. Amaimon is obviously weaker than Lucy (probably not stupid enough to try and fight him) and he doesn't strike me as a great negotiator either.

How exactly would he be of any help?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Isis-Lied on March 05, 2014, 08:22:27 PM
He'd provide a decent distraction or the cram school kids to escape; and even if he's weak, I'm sure the Illuminati wouldn't appreciate a random earthquake :P

Not to mention if Mephisto really wants to get rid of Amaimon he can send him on this suicide mission instead of outright killing him, since that's not really his style
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on March 05, 2014, 08:48:18 PM
Random earthquake actually sounds like a great technique at this point.

Well, except for the part where the exwires would be buried two deep under the rubble. Might want to get them out first. But once that's done, levelling the building would be a pretty efficient way to set back research.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: BrilliantAkane on March 06, 2014, 02:55:12 AM
@BrILLIANT, stop, this is turning into Salaryman chapter material those it must be drawn

Never! (insert maniac laughter)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Isis-Lied on March 08, 2014, 05:18:34 PM
On another random note, was it mentioned that all demons have a fatal verse? Because I have this cracky theory/headcanon that the reason why demon kings (minus the fact that they're super powerful and stuff) cannot be defeated by even high-ranking exorcists is because the only way to dispel them besides harming the host body would be their fatal verse, which I think is probably like an entire book of the Bible (like all of Job, for example) or some long sutra/chant. Meaning, that you'd probably be dead before you could even finish reciting it.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on March 08, 2014, 09:07:06 PM
Do fatal verses even kill demons?

I'm still not clear on what happens when a demon gets destroyed in Assiah. Are they really gone or do they just return to Gehenna?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Wikkelsoee on March 08, 2014, 09:16:50 PM
^ I think they die when they are exorcised in Assiah. It wouldn't make sense for them to fear exorcists otherwise.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Avaricious on March 08, 2014, 09:26:49 PM
On another random note, was it mentioned that all demons have a fatal verse? Because I have this cracky theory/headcanon that the reason why demon kings (minus the fact that they're super powerful and stuff) cannot be defeated by even high-ranking exorcists is because the only way to dispel them besides harming the host body would be their fatal verse, which I think is probably like an entire book of the Bible (like all of Job, for example) or some long sutra/chant. Meaning, that you'd probably be dead before you could even finish reciting it.

What about the demon Fujimoto exorcised in chapter 1, if that demon is Astaroth like in the anime then the chant he used wasn't that long.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on March 08, 2014, 09:33:30 PM
If that demon was Ashtaroth Fujimoto wouldn't have killed it so easily. I don't think it is.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on March 08, 2014, 09:42:05 PM
If the anime was correct, the chant didn't kill him. He was back five minutes later.

In fact, it didn't seem to do anything, since he was still using the same body too.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Avaricious on March 08, 2014, 09:43:26 PM
If that demon was Ashtaroth Fujimoto wouldn't have killed it so easily. I don't think it is.

In the Viz volume Fujimoto said he "drove out the demon" possibly meaning he just removed it/him from the boy's body not killed it, but your right he was defeated rather easily for a demon king even if
Fujimoto was the paladin.

If the anime was correct, the chant didn't kill him. He was back five minutes later.

In fact, it didn't seem to do anything, since he was still using the same body too.

Oh yeah, forgot about that.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Isis-Lied on March 08, 2014, 10:34:44 PM
I was under the impression that fatal verses were an easy/safe way to expel a demon from a human host. Like you wouldn't exactly want to shoot a demon-possessed human; a verse that expels it back to Gehenna seems much easier. I don't think they kill (as in destroys the heart) the demon because regardless of if Shiratori was possessed by Astaroth or not, the demon came right back. Still, that was in the anime, right? Wasn't it expelled by the verse in the manga and then never heard of again?

(Sorry if I'm wrong; it's been ages since I read the first chapter)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on March 08, 2014, 10:46:54 PM
It was never heard from again in the manga.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Elaedan on March 08, 2014, 11:10:06 PM
^I also support the idea that fatal verses just expel demons from Assiah and they get angry because possession is hard etc~
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on April 01, 2014, 04:47:37 PM
Ok, so I was thinking.

Igor Neuhaus is 39, right?

So he must have been like 23-24 when the Blue Night happened.

He said he was possessed by Satan for a short period of time (enough for him to survive having only lost his eye) and that he "lost his family as they approached to try to help" him:

(click to show/hide)

That Satan murdered his family using his hands:

(click to show/hide)

And we see that woman giving us her back. And she has curly/wavy hair.

Who else is dead and Kazue designed her with wavy/curly long hair?

(click to show/hide)

What if... What if Satan raped Yuri using Neuhaus body. She then found herself pregnant  but it didn't cross their mind it was Satan's. But when Rin was born his flames killed Yuri, hence Neuhaus hatred.

-------------- Ok, that was crack as hell.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on April 01, 2014, 04:54:34 PM
Very cracky o.o
It's possible in a way, yes, but, I think Neuhaus would be dead or at least lose more than an eye.
Aaaaand I don't think I see any of the twins in him (or vice versa).

I just realized how weird it must be to think you kind have two dads.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Elaedan on April 01, 2014, 04:58:44 PM
Wow I never thought of that, good crack :3


And yes... Rin and Yukio has too dads and both are 'biological' to them in A sense. What does they think of it...
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Elaedan on April 02, 2014, 01:26:15 PM
Crack crack crack!


Okay we have discussed of the striking resemblance of Arthur and Lucifer. If Arthur just knows that someone of his family was possessed and when seeing Luci for first time then he notices that the king of light is using his relative? Because I can see he hates and despices all demons in general and having Blue Night trauma I think....



But then the crack I am more certain:
The boss lady of Illuminati. We have discussed if he was A Toudou but know what who she looks like more? With streak of blond and A 'peak' backwards she resemble imo Luci! That's why she is so loyal etc she may have Luci's blood or something ^^" (just look at the hair style! And those saw-model which can be seen also on Luci's head!)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on April 02, 2014, 03:24:36 PM
It could be possible. And she doesn't seem like she fears Lucifer too much or anything - could partially be why.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on April 06, 2014, 07:04:21 PM
This is crack...sorta. I don't know where else to post it.

You are aware of how Karura and Ucchushma were able to link to the priests and grant them spells, correct? It is my assumption that the demons can't do the barrier spells and the Fire Life Samhadi on their own.

They need a human to recite those spells (and reshape their power.)

What if all demons are like this?

What if SATAN is no different? Except if he were to partner with a human to recite for him, they would die. Rin is the only exception. He is half human, so he can still be the reciter for Satan and not die from it.

Furthermore, if Satan's blue flames are trans-dimensional like I believe (Blue Night, Rin destroying Mephisto's cage, the fact that Satan can ALSO cross dimensions with the Gehenna Gate), Satan can use Rin while he is still in Gehenna.

That's also why he agreed to let Rin go to cram school.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Elaedan on April 06, 2014, 07:47:21 PM
^Very interesting! So in your crack Satan would be 'little devil on Rin's shoulder', right? So he needs his son to bring some doom with him?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on April 06, 2014, 08:15:24 PM
No, basically Rin would be able to channel Satan's power through Gehenna, and use the blue flames in spells.

So instead of JUST burning down a mountain, Rin could nuke an entire city by borrowing power from daddy and doing something special with it by reciting an aria.

This entails a COOPERATIVE Rin, which he is not, though. And a cooperative Satan.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on April 07, 2014, 01:48:43 AM
Interesting theory.

Plus I doubt Rin could have the memory capacity to do that even if he wanted to

So, Rin what Rin did with Ucchusma; you think it's possible for him to do it with other beings as well? Probably.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on April 07, 2014, 03:20:15 AM
Interesting theory.

Plus I doubt Rin could have the memory capacity to do that even if he wanted to

So, Rin what Rin did with Ucchusma; you think it's possible for him to do it with other beings as well? Probably.

Yeah. Like Ucchushma, Satan could probably tell him the words.

I think all humans can do it with any demon. Except Satan, because Satan is too powerful.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Elaedan on April 07, 2014, 04:50:20 AM
^oh now I got it! Cool!
Well, if demons would be cunning they would use Rin's friends as hostage.. But they seem not to be smart...


And what if Satan also needs Rin to make more Gehenna gates or smthing? I bet he would have more common powers with daddy than just destruction~
(Illuminati seems to want to do many artificial Gehenna gates so would be more handy if you can do many real ones?)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on April 07, 2014, 05:14:32 AM
Yeah. I am betting on Rin having more of Satan's powers, including the ability to make a Gehenna Gate. While Satan is limited in what he can do in Assiah, using Rin is a good idea.

On another note, the longer they take to reveal Mars Bars'/Martha's real name, the less I'm convinced the "she's actually Yuri Egin" theory is crack.

Just that she's Yuri, though. She might still be evil, for all we know.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on April 07, 2014, 05:28:41 AM
Isn't she a little young to be Yuri?

Also, that would mean Satan was lying.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on April 07, 2014, 05:52:43 AM
Satan said stuff like "Corrupted" and "Doomed to destruction." It's a stretch, but he never explicitly said "dead." Yuri's profile also says "her whereabouts are unknown." not "she is deceased."

Though she does look a little healthy to be Yuri.

And Yuri could be as young as 30.

Things could explain that. MetallicArcher's "healed with flames," or perhaps some other kind of demonic healing. Which might also de-age her.

What counts against it is how impersonal she treated the Okumura twins. "Let me and the guard go kill them!" is not what a mother would say.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on April 07, 2014, 05:59:20 AM
She is a good actress. She is a good actress. It's an excuse for her to go save her sons. The blong twins are secretly on her side. The reason Pig Face's serum hasn't been working is that she is sabotaging him.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Elaedan on April 07, 2014, 06:43:05 AM
^Yup we don't really know anything of twins' birth and how they went to Shiro and Mepphy and what happend, when and how exactly Yuri got pregnant. All info is just hear-say and no one has claimed to be there and seen (Exceliin maybe Shiro but dead can't tell tales).

The glasses fit her so I would be kinda glad if she were real Yuri!


then again Mars bar's hair spike resembles too much of Lucifer's
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on April 07, 2014, 06:51:38 AM
Hold it! When did Yuri get a profile? Can you share?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Elaedan on April 07, 2014, 07:16:32 AM
^if the profile is from Seijyuji Gakuen guide, I can try to find it and share when I get home in 4h...
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on April 07, 2014, 07:48:51 AM
http://rynoa26.tumblr.com/post/81649360521/more-character-profiles-from-the-blue-exorcist
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on April 08, 2014, 03:31:21 AM
And Yuri could be as young as 30.

You think she was fourteen when Satan raped her?

You sure know how to make a bad situation worse, don't you? ;__;
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on April 08, 2014, 03:41:11 AM
Weren't the twins fifteen at the beginning of the series? So, if you count 15 years back from the beginning of the series with her being 30 at it, she would have been 15 when it happened. (or I'm getting the timeline completely messed up, which would not be strange for me).
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on April 08, 2014, 03:46:26 AM
There's the addition of 9 months during pregnancy too
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on April 08, 2014, 03:54:47 AM
Well, maybe she was closer to sixteen than to fifteen? All we know is that she had the lowest exorcism rank. And Cram School seems to be normally started when you are 15.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on April 08, 2014, 03:55:54 AM
So she's probably more into her thirties - which would tie in best to her rank.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on April 08, 2014, 04:02:25 AM
In my fic, she is close to turning 31 at the beginning of the series.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on April 08, 2014, 04:11:36 AM
Weren't the twins fifteen at the beginning of the series? So, if you count 15 years back from the beginning of the series with her being 30 at it, she would have been 15 when it happened. (or I'm getting the timeline completely messed up, which would not be strange for me).

According to Chino's timeline (http://www.theblueknight.host-ed.me/forum/index.php/topic,278.0.html), they were 15-and-a-half at the beginning of the series (school starts end March and the twins' birthday is end December), so

30 years - 15 years, 6 months - 9 months pregnancy = 13 years, 9 months.

Even if she's just a month away from turning 31, she'd only have 14 years, 8 months. I'm pretty sure that at that age, she should've been still in middle school (unless she skipped a grade or something).
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on April 08, 2014, 04:24:18 AM
Ok, here is when I ask a thing about the school system of the North Hemisphere.

Here in Argentina, classes go from the first week of March to the first week of December.

If a kid has its birthday after the last day of June (meaning, he was born in the period of time form the first day of July to the last day of December) he is enters school a year later.

Ie. I was born in February 1995. So I was 5 in February 2000 and started Kinder Garden that year. But if I had been born in July 1995, I would have started Kinder Garden in 2001, turning 6 halfway through that year.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Elaedan on April 08, 2014, 04:28:54 AM
Ummmm but isn't it just 3 months from December to March? .___. Nevertheless, Yuri was quite young if she was raped at teen...
But then again demons doesn't care whom their victim is..


Our school year starts at August and ends at next June.. I was 6 when I started. So can't help... But Rin and Yukio went to school, it seems, on time.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on April 08, 2014, 04:31:42 AM
We have a two weeks break during July so you don't have to attend school during the colder days of the year.

Maybe we shoudl draw the Japanese School year on a line witht he months... Here, the Summer Break (December-March) marks the change from one school year tot he next. I don't know in Japan, they have different holidays.

Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on April 08, 2014, 04:38:22 AM
Ok, here is when I ask a thing about the school system of the North Hemisphere.

Here in Argentina, classes go from the first week of March to the first week of December.

If a kid has its birthday after the last day of June (meaning, he was born in the period of time form the first day of July to the last day of December) he is enters school a year later.

Ie. I was born in February 1995. So I was 5 in February 2000 and started Kinder Garden that year. But if I had been born in July 1995, I would have started Kinder Garden in 2001, turning 6 halfway through that year.

You have three months of holiday every year? And you only start Kinder Garden at 5?! Whoa... :o

We start classes the first of September and finish the end of June. You join Kindergarden the school year in which you turn 3. Not sure about children who were born during the holidays; I assume they can choose if they want to join the year before or after.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on April 08, 2014, 04:45:45 AM
Well, technically, classes go on until the a little before Christmas. But that's only for those who failed some subject and need to take the special exams in December to save the year.

You can start Kinder Garden at age 3 (heck, some Kinder Gardens take in kids as young as 6 months). The 5-years-old level is the last one and the only one obligatory by law. Primary School starts at 6, that year of Kinder garden being meant to ensure all kids know how to read, write and some basic maths before proper school (and so they get used to being away from their homes under the teacher's authority).
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on April 08, 2014, 04:46:36 AM
We start Kindergarten at 5 where I live. Sometimes you can get in at 4. Usually 4 and under is pre-school (I never attended. I actually got booklets from the store to do. No wonder I'm a school nerd.)

There may be differences in where you are in Canada, but I know here you are assigned to start school depending on the year you were born.

Sounds the same as here -
My parents tried to get me in when I was 4, since during the school year I'd turn 5 (start in September as 4, turn 5 in February), but I was denied and had to wait until the next September.


In Japan they start their school year in march. You then get summer break (not sure how long, think 2 months), then you get winter break, and end the year at spring break.
(Sakiko just graduated from university last month).

Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on April 08, 2014, 04:50:00 AM
Well, technically, classes go on until the a little before Christmas. But that's only for those who failed some subject and need to take the special exams in December to save the year.
We have those in August.

Quote
You can start Kinder Garden at age 3 (heck, some Kinder Gardens take in kids as young as 6 months). The 5-years-old level is the last one and the only one obligatory by law. Primary School starts at 6, that year of Kinder garden being meant to ensure all kids know how to read, write and some basic maths before proper school (and so they get used to being away from their homes under the teacher's authority).
Kinder Garden as a whole isn't obliged here.

And what the heck, you need to know how to read, write and do maths before going to school? I thought learning that kind of stuff was what schools were for. ???
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on April 08, 2014, 04:51:30 AM
It's really weird seeing ''Kinder Garden'' instead of ''kindergarten''. I've never seen it the first way X'D
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on April 08, 2014, 04:58:01 AM
It's the same thing, just in German. :P
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on April 08, 2014, 04:59:11 AM
I know, it's just really strange to me ^^;; Anyways, I'm making you go off-topic again D:
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on April 08, 2014, 05:02:32 AM
And what the heck, you need to know how to read, write and do maths before going to school? I thought learning that kind of stuff was what schools were for. ???

In Elementary School, all the way until the last year, subjects go like this:

Quote
Social Sciences -> covers History and Geography

Natural Sciences -> mainly Biology, but you also sometimes see some chemistry and physics. Sexual Education might be thrown in here as a topic during the last year (age 11).

Maths

Language and Literature (how to properly use your own native language).

Music and/or Artistic Drawing (basically, an hour or two a week of killing time).

English (it became obligatory only some years ago, before that, only private and demi-private schools offered it, the level ain't very good anyway).

Physical Education (either an excuse to have fun or the worst class of your childhood depending on how the teacher approaches it).
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on May 03, 2014, 11:57:17 PM
Following the idea of the Takara having being the ones who adopted Tsukumo.

What if, Nemu agreed to act as the Puppet's vessel for Mephisto in exchange of whatever papers for the Takara to adopt Izumo, too?

Because, I have been thinking. What protects Izumo from the Order pulling on her something similar to what they pulled on Rin? Say, she has no family so making her disappear would probably be quite easy for the Vatican.

 I mean, I think that legally, right now, her custody still belongs to Tamamo? But Tamamo is a living corpse at best. The Illuminati likely have signed whatever needed to be signed for Izumo to attend school or the like using Tamamo's name. Maria probably had what she needed to make it look to the agency like Tamamo had forfeited her legal rights over Tsukumo.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Elaedan on May 04, 2014, 10:22:10 AM
^Well it is indeed strongly implied that the Takara's has Tsukumo - plus she has to trust them to be able to let them borrow/take her mascot. If the mascot was only thing that reminded of her sister, I would as her not let anyone take it on light reasons.

But I bet that Illuminati (more likely Gedouin) wouldn't keep the promise not to find Tsukumo - if the bloodline and research was important, like we know now, they wouldn't risk it. What I an after, Takara's are powerful and protecting Tsukumo (and Mephisto is propably in allegiance with them, he has his fingers on every plan). Thus I doubt after adoption Tsukumo's legal care is 100% with her new parents' hands, not in Tamamo's. Or at least adoption I know goes like that. And the child which isn't given up to adoption, Izumo, is still under care of her mother - so that is how Illuminati can forcefully put Izumo to school's and use her mother's name to do things legally.
(Though Tamamo give personally the right to adopt Tsukumo, it isn't legal but I doubt it isn't important, but I usually think detailed...)

Hope we find out of Takaras soon!

But Archer: the puppet INDEED looks like something of Mephisto's creation: the umbrella for example look very similar. And it is pink and it summons things out of nowhere in A puff - time and space demon to me!!


Now I can't get past the fact, I want to know the truth!!
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on May 04, 2014, 10:02:26 PM
Yes, I think that Izumo does not believe Pig Face will truly leave Tsukumo alone. That's why she objected when Renzou dragged her to the laboratory earlier than agreed and tried to run away t find Tsukumo.

I don't understand what you tried to say here:

Quote
Thus I doubt after adoption Tsukumo's legal care is 100% with her new parents' hands, not in Tamamo's. Or at least adoption I know goes like that. And the child which isn't given up to adoption, Izumo, is still under care of her mother - so that is how Illuminati can forcefully put Izumo to school's and use her mother's name to do things legally.

(Though Tamamo give personally the right to adopt Tsukumo, it isn't legal but I doubt it isn't important, but I usually think detailed...)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Elaedan on May 05, 2014, 05:46:54 AM
^Oh sorry! I see there is A lot of grammar mistakes and all when I re-read it, sorry for that. I have been really tired because of exams lately, it seems I make mistakes more often...


What I meant is, what I know of adoption is that is 'severs ties' with previous parent/s  and then all rights to take care and make decisions are on the new ones. So the first sentence was supposed to read 'that the rights are now 100% at the Takara's and Tamamo plus Illuminati'. they can't legally make anything to Tsukumo, they only can decide things for Izumo whom is still at the 'legal care' (not sure if the right word..) of her mother. And because Tamamo is more like A corpse you said, Illuminati uses her name to make everything by law.


The last sentence was just my pondering that in real life, Illuminati could still maybe get Tsukumo back because Tamamo didn't personally give her up for adoption, thus the rights transfer wasn't legally right, and they could sew Takara's for that. Then again, law would maybe decide that because Tamamo is good as dead and Illuminati is shadowy company, that Takara's are more safe enviroment for children to grow, thus juridical care would be let for them in the end~
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on May 05, 2014, 09:50:17 AM
I see. To add to the last part, Maria said the family who took Tsukumo in would keep her safe because they had a good social position. I don't know in other countries but here we are used to it being money = political power. Also, I think they made it a point to say the adoption agency was private? When I researched the Japanese adoption system I found it's all state managed.  If a private company managed the adoption, Maria/adopting family might have had a better chance to use money to be shady on Tsukumo's origins. It's even possible that Maria was expecting them not to bate an eye at any kind of investigation or legal move the Illuminati pulled to invalidate the adoption.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on May 10, 2014, 12:25:22 AM
What is Boss Lady is a member of the family who adopted Tsukumo?

Like, when Pig Face told Izumo during the flashback that there wasn't anything easier for the Illuminati than finding Tsukumo he actually meant something like "Lol, see this bitch I killed right there? She gave your sister to a family who provides us financial support."
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on May 10, 2014, 09:57:31 AM
It could work. It could also explain the "we don't know her name yet, when we really should" theory.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on May 10, 2014, 02:17:58 PM
How would her name tell us anything though? We don't know the name of the family that adopted Tsukumo (do we?).
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on May 10, 2014, 04:39:43 PM
Maybe she is a Takara, too? Like one side of the family works undercover for Mephisto another works undercover for Lucy?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on May 11, 2014, 01:10:54 AM
How would her name tell us anything though? We don't know the name of the family that adopted Tsukumo (do we?).
We would learn that first. And correct, maybe she is a Takara.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Elaedan on May 12, 2014, 03:01:41 PM
^The idea seems cool to me.
Even she is still evil-stepmother!Yuri for me atm xP
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on May 14, 2014, 04:36:07 AM
What if the eyepatch twins from the original concept sketch are Neuhaus' kids?

(http://www.fyresight.com/ane/early_manga_group_closeup.jpg)

And he thinks they died during the Blue Night but they didn't. Mephisto wanted him to believe so to manipulate him later on to test Rin. And then Neuhaus comes back as a Illuminati member cause Lucy promised him to bring back his children.

Or maybe the Illuminati stole the kids, and they are now Nauhaus shows up as a Illuminati member cause they are extorting with using his kids for Pig Face's experiments?

I dunno, I just want those kids to show up... and I want Neuhaus back.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Elaedan on May 14, 2014, 07:41:43 AM
Oh good point! There is really more characters than the main cast! I wonder what they were...
But I miss Neuhaus. He can't just have forgiven and agreed just sit back?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Wikkelsoee on May 14, 2014, 01:57:36 PM
^ No, I think he's on the run (under protection from Mephisto of course)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on May 14, 2014, 02:14:17 PM
His character profile says his licence was suspended.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: BlushTea on May 15, 2014, 08:24:02 PM
Hello everyone. So I’m still a little bit new to the forum and I’ve been looking around for topics on Neuhaus, and since you’ve now started one... :D

Does anyone else think Neuhaus is related to Yuri and the twins at all? Speaking from an anime perceptive he has the same eye and hair colour as Yukio and Yuri. And then it was stated in both the anime and manga that he was possessed by Satan yet he only lost an eye and didn’t die like all the other people Satan’s possessed.

Doesn’t that also sound like Ernst Egin, who still survived after Satan possessed him and just sustained some (quite a few) severe burns?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on May 15, 2014, 08:30:16 PM
Now that you bring it up again....

Ok, so I was thinking.

Igor Neuhaus is 39, right?

So he must have been like 23-24 when the Blue Night happened.

He said he was possessed by Satan for a short period of time (enough for him to survive having only lost his eye) and that he "lost his family as they approached to try to help" him:

(click to show/hide)

That Satan murdered his family using his hands:

(click to show/hide)

And we see that woman giving us her back. And she has curly/wavy hair.

Who else is dead and Kazue designed her with wavy/curly long hair?

(click to show/hide)

What if... What if Satan raped Yuri using Neuhaus body. She then found herself pregnant  but it didn't cross their mind it was Satan's. But when Rin was born his flames killed Yuri, hence Neuhaus hatred.

-------------- Ok, that was crack as hell.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Elaedan on May 15, 2014, 08:47:37 PM
^Oh yes I remember that crack and now wish it to be True - you know that Katou does not abandon introduced characters etc so it is really highly likely that Neuhaus still appear on plot... And that relation is perfect plus it isn't that obvious, so it would still be shocking!
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on May 15, 2014, 09:19:29 PM
I have to admit I'm stl crying over Neuhaus' character profile.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on June 30, 2014, 07:12:51 AM
Did I talk about the "human host of Satan was the Paladin before Shiro" theory? I'm not sure if it's crack or not, but aside from the identity it would work.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Elaedan on July 01, 2014, 07:54:42 AM
Did I talk about the "human host of Satan was the Paladin before Shiro" theory? I'm not sure if it's crack or not, but aside from the identity it would work.

Sounds possible to me :>  better to have A cool Paladin father than some random (drunk) guy. Plus, as we know that Satan must hate humans but I think he hates even more Exorcists. I totally can see him possessing Exorcists just for fun (and same time killing them because they can't hold him). What's more, would fit to the Blue Knight incident where he possessed great number of clergy men.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on July 01, 2014, 08:14:28 AM
Yep. And Paladin Father might have been the guy to last 10 minutes. Drunk dude would burst into flames right away.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: cottontailcake on July 01, 2014, 08:27:51 AM
Yep. And Paladin Father might have been the guy to last 10 minutes. Drunk dude would burst into flames right away.
I read this and instantly came to the conclusion that Drunk Dude would burst into flames because he was more flammable (because he'd have higher alcohol content).
I have a feeling that you were probably talking about other things, though, like him not having the fortitude to withstand Satan.

10 minutes... either Satan came into the world with a mission or he possessed some poor guy while he was having sex... (maybe he had his guard down?)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Elaedan on July 01, 2014, 10:52:41 AM
Yep. And Paladin Father might have been the guy to last 10 minutes. Drunk dude would burst into flames right away.
I read this and instantly came to the conclusion that Drunk Dude would burst into flames because he was more flammable (because he'd have higher alcohol content).
I have a feeling that you were probably talking about other things, though, like him not having the fortitude to withstand Satan.

10 minutes... either Satan came into the world with a mission or he possessed some poor guy while he was having sex... (maybe he had his guard down?)

10minutes is short time, and we don't know yet what needs from the host body to stand possession of Satan's powers, but he would have been insanely lucky if Yuri has boyfriend near him (and they were in bed). But I had the impression whereas raped?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Isis-Lied on July 01, 2014, 12:43:39 PM
Lol, I just thought of the worst crack theory after reading chapter 13 of Salaryman. What if Angel is actually part of the Illuminati and infiltrated the Order/Vatican? Like his whole demeanor about hating demons is just an orchestrated act (along w/ his err... inability to understand simple jokes) and he's really under Lucy's control. So Lucifer actually one-upped Mephy and has the paladin as a pawn and, as a result, the Order as well.

This is seriously just a crack theory (so please don't take it seriously--) and the only evidence I have to back it up is that Lucy and Angel have similar personalities (kind of) and Angel dresses entirely in white (and it makes me think of the king of light).

...but yah, don't take this seriously guys. This is the kind of crack theory I come up w/ on pain medication so :P
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: cottontailcake on July 01, 2014, 12:51:23 PM
I feel that the fact that both Angel and Lucifer are blond supports this theory.

Angel, being Angel would discredit the Order and encourage some to abandon it/not take it seriously, therefore weakening it?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Elaedan on July 01, 2014, 02:16:11 PM
^And it all reminds of the crack that Lucifer is possessing Arthur's brother~
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Isis-Lied on July 06, 2014, 08:18:28 PM
I don't know if I've posted this before/someone's mentioned this oops, sorry if I've had/took someone's idea but don't ya guys think that the black flames are affecting Shima psychologically? I mean, assuming he's had Yamantaka since he was young, and that the flames can burn out a demon's soul, how could it not affect him? We know it affects him physically makes him pass out, thank god so what's to say that the flames aren't partly the cause of his 'rebellion' against his family/good and general personality? That it's a power he can't control fully and is affecting him both psychologically and physically.

regardless, this is a headcanon of mine until proven otherwise
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: majhoola on July 06, 2014, 10:34:16 PM
I don't know if I've posted this before/someone's mentioned this oops, sorry if I've had/took someone's idea but don't ya guys think that the black flames are affecting Shima psychologically? I mean, assuming he's had Yamantaka since he was young, and that the flames can burn out a demon's soul, how could it not affect him? We know it affects him physically makes him pass out, thank god so what's to say that the flames aren't partly the cause of his 'rebellion' against his family/good and general personality? That it's a power he can't control fully and is affecting him both psychologically and physically.

regardless, this is a headcanon of mine until proven otherwise


I actually thought about the possibility of the flames affecting him too.. but what I thought is a bit different.
While I don't think Yamantaka's flames affects Renzou's choices particularly, I feel like it might connect him to the people he used the flames on.. and that could be really troubling for him

I just thought of that first when I first saw this page (that droplet really did interrupt something)

(https://38.media.tumblr.com/92026e0612904715d858fd55211b4f94/tumblr_n8baf6U8zw1secpcso1_1280.jpg)

because Izumo was dreaming about her mom asking for help.. (or maybe Renzou is asking for help if it's not izumo's dream)
who knows.. へ(。•ิ‿ -〃)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Isis-Lied on July 08, 2014, 12:07:18 AM
ooh, i like that theory :3 it would be quite interesting if he could feel what the other person who was being burned felt/thought.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on July 08, 2014, 12:41:28 AM
It would make a really cool mindreading technique against enemies, too!
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: facets-and-rainbows on July 08, 2014, 02:48:55 AM
It would also explain why Shima looked so freaked out when Takara opened his eyes (but before he did anything). And if Rin's flames are the same way, it would be even more traumatic for him to burn zombies.

I like this theory.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on July 08, 2014, 03:02:13 AM
Probably not for Rin. If his flames could do something like that, he'd know by now.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on July 08, 2014, 03:03:24 AM
Has he used the blue flames to burn the demons' hearts before though? I was under the impression he only knew how to burn the physical side of things.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on July 08, 2014, 03:10:48 AM
The Impure King was from Gehenna, and his flames only affected it.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on July 08, 2014, 03:20:21 AM
^ It was in Assiah though. That was not really different from burning the clothes but not the people (well, except that the bacteria were inside the people, so it takes even more accuracy).
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on July 08, 2014, 03:37:20 AM
It was spiritual bacteria though.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Elaedan on July 08, 2014, 01:13:22 PM
I also am sceptic. Rin hasn't full control of his flames (even they are part of him I seriously doubt they have that kind of connection) so I don't know how aware he is how thoroughly he burns things. Plus I don't think he can feel even mentally the damage he does to other demons - he may see them scream in pain but nothing more. I doubt the IK had it's heart in A place Rin could burn it, he burned the physical materia (=host). He still is learning how to control his powers and what to burn to what degree. The limitation not to use his power and burn up everything (which I believe is his aggressive instincts) is only in his mind and because he has human-like conscience.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on July 08, 2014, 03:53:28 PM
The demon heart was in the sporagium, later exposed, and yes, Rin destroyed it.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on July 08, 2014, 07:49:43 PM
Did I say this before?

You know how the anime/fanon considers Gehenna to be a spiritual world? What if it were the other way around? Gehenna is the "physical" dimension, and Assiah is the more spiritual one.

Because I can't get my logic around why demons, although unseen and spiritual, can affect real things. And why Rin's tail is a Gehenna thing, yet can be percieved by normal humans.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on July 08, 2014, 08:00:21 PM
I can kinda get the tail thing

But yeah, I don't get why demons can host things and affect things, but tend to be invisible.

But how would the reversing the 'physical' and 'spiritual' sides affect it??

That makes Gehenna seem even more toxic °~°
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Wikkelsoee on July 08, 2014, 08:43:14 PM
But how would a physical thing possess a spiritual thing? Or am I missing something?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on July 09, 2014, 01:28:36 AM
Hrm. I was about to say some sort of mental magic, but I am sure the demons disappear entirely when they possess something.

They can also drag their physical hosts down to Gehenna.

(In reality I'm betting both are physical places)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: cottontailcake on July 09, 2014, 03:21:31 AM
... Rin's tail (and fangs and ears I guess) can be perceived by normal people? This is news to me.

I can't get my head around this. Every time I try... something fails.

If it was just possession... I could get that. I can accept that Coal Tars possess dust... but then you get things that go completely against that. Like ghosts. Ghosts seem to, by their very definition, not possess anything (except maybe the memories of those who died -- wait that's a different kind of 'possess' :P)

So then I think... either possession is a doorway, and the spirits can enter through it and past the doorway -- out of the possessed object, or demons can pass through Gates.

Which then begs the question why Satan doesn't just open up a gate and waltz in. <-- that is currently the question that is bothering me the most.

So... I headcanon that the Gehenna Gate can only be summoned from Assiah. Maybe it's a place in Gehenna, and needs to be created in Assiah to work. :D

My biggest crack headcanon is that Kazoe knows what she's doing.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on July 09, 2014, 03:27:37 AM

Rin's tail:`Yes, they can be. When they are out people don't really notice them, though. (Like n that scene with Godaiin, Rin's tail came out. It's not like people couldn't really see it, they just couldn't notice it).

Ghosts: It was said that they possessed something...they were air-related demons but I can't rmember exactly what they possessed (last breath a person took before dying ro something?). It was more than simple memories, though.

Satan can't just open the Gehenna Gate and come through because in order for a demon to be in Assiah it does in fact need a host.


Hmm I'm not sure if there's anything against Gehenna Gates only being made in Assiah.
How often have they even been made? Satan made one to transport Rin - and then there's the fake ones.
But they were made in Assiah..right?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: cottontailcake on July 09, 2014, 03:54:09 AM

Rin's tail:`Yes, they can be. When they are out people don't really notice them, though. (Like n that scene with Godaiin, Rin's tail came out. It's not like people couldn't really see it, they just couldn't notice it).

Satan can't just open the Gehenna Gate and come through because in order for a demon to be in Assiah it does in fact need a host.

Hmm I'm not sure if there's anything against Gehenna Gates only being made in Assiah.
How often have they even been made? Satan made one to transport Rin - and then there's the fake ones.
But they were made in Assiah..right?

I thought they've always been made in Assiah.
Can't see... don't notice... well I suppose 'don't notice' is a more thorough way of hiding. Gehenna things probably have an SEP field a la Hitcherhiker's Guide to the Galaxy if you get my meaning -- somebody else's problem not gonna pay attention to it 'cause it's weird.

But that then makes my puzzlement 'Rin's tail can be noticed by normal people' which I think is then 'no'. I am assuming you need mashou/temptaint to notice Rin's tail (that's what I took away from the scene with Godaiin.)

*thoughts go whirling in strange circles* confuusing!
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: themoonlandian on July 09, 2014, 03:59:45 AM
Well with the Rin's tail thing, there's a part in Noragami that explains it well. It's the exact same logic applied to it.

Ah! I  love Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy! But I haven't read/seen it in so long I can't remember much at all ;A;

Anyways, I'm too lazy to find out how it was said word-for-word in Noragami, but it was explained kind of like this.

They were in a restaurant, and it was asked how many waitresses there were. The girl answered with two, when there were actually five.
All of them were in plain view, but only two of them stuck out, so it was perceived as two. If she has paid more attention, she would have seen the five.

Or something like that....I can't remember it's been a few months.
Basically, people need to actually be looking for it to notice it. They aren't giving any focus to it, so the miss it - their brain doesn't really register it as being actually there.
So, they see it...but....it doesn't get registered really so it's like they don't.

Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: cottontailcake on July 09, 2014, 04:33:40 AM
It has to be at least half SEP-field though, right? what doesn't stick out about a guy with a tail? What doesn't stick out about a creepy-stalker-thing? What does stick out about goblins?

Do you consider Rin's demonishness to fall under the same category as other things which normal people don't see/perceive/notice?

I wonder if Rin's not noticing Mephisto is tied into it all. :P
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on July 09, 2014, 05:03:28 AM
What is a SEP field?

So far, Rin's tail is the only thing that can be percieved if another person is looking for it, mashou or not. And I'm betting they can't see his unsealed form. Katou says they can't see his fire, but it makes the most sense if they only can't see the fire from his body. (If he were to blow something up, they'd see red fire.)

It falls under a unique category.

Crack theory 2: Rin's human soul is merged with the satanic power. So humans can see the Satanic traits if they are looking hard enough, because it is merged with something Assiah-ly that they can perceive.

Mephisto can legitimately astral-project his consciousness, turn invisible, and shape shift.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Elaedan on July 09, 2014, 07:27:39 AM
^Was it that humans could also see his ears and fangs though? It would make sense, and the fire is not visble I you don't have mashou. (Rin saw in first chapter the demon's ears and fangs etc from the start?)



Rin is really unique half-demon, I support that crack! :3
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: cottontailcake on July 09, 2014, 08:54:19 AM
@Tardar SEP fields aren't terribly relevant here so I'll stick them under a spoiler:
(click to show/hide)

Got a question for you, though:
Quote
So far, Rin's tail is the only thing that can be percieved if another person is looking for it, mashou or not.
Lots of people are saying this but I can't think of a single thing that supports people being able to see Rin's tail outside of those who have had mashou. (Godaiin doesn't count IMO, 'cause he shows every sign of having one but an obvious injury)

I had a crack theory! It was delightfully crack! I swear! but now it's gone!

For a moment I thought what you were saying about Mephisto was crack too. >.>
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Wikkelsoee on July 09, 2014, 04:52:45 PM
A bit late, but here's the bit about Ghosts from volume 3:
Quote
Kin pf Azazel, King of Spirits. A ghost is a demon that inhabits vapor released by the dead bodies of people and animals. Ghosts are often characterized by the emotions the deceased had in life. As with Ghouls, the manner of exorcism depends on the deceased's practices and beliefs in life".

That SEP-theory kinda makes sense. I think I'll accept that as a headcanon.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on July 09, 2014, 06:27:52 PM
@cottontail: Katou said the bit about the tail in a character interview. It might be supplementary material, but Word of God is Word of God.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: cottontailcake on July 10, 2014, 12:15:08 AM
@cottontail: Katou said the bit about the tail in a character interview. It might be supplementary material, but Word of God is Word of God.
I can accept that. Atm I'm still wrangling it so that it's an ordinary Gehenna thing, but I'll go take a look-see at the interview if it's translated, and that might change my mind.

Crack theory: Assiah, as a world, behaves like our IRL world. Gehenna things are not of Assiah and therefore do not necessarily follow a logic that Assiah-things(people) can readily understand or put into words.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on July 10, 2014, 03:27:05 AM
It's at the end of Volume 11, but was mentioned somewhere in one of the supplementary materials threads floating around...
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Karen on July 15, 2014, 04:19:54 AM
 :)  ;)  Kay, I have kind of a crack headcanon theory; Shura is famous for her headlock move, and she practiced and perfected it on both Arthur and Yukio! Much to Shiros amusement! LOL!   ;D
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: cottontailcake on July 23, 2014, 09:25:25 AM
Bon and Lady Boss are related. (Proof in the hair~!)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Wikkelsoee on July 31, 2014, 05:28:30 PM
^ Except Bon dyes his hair :P
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: cottontailcake on July 31, 2014, 11:15:23 PM
So does Lady Boss, I assume. ;D
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on August 01, 2014, 12:03:09 AM
Unless she's a Toudou.

Speaking of which I want some backstory on him already. Let's make up some crack theories about his past like...

Dude would put himself into dangerous situations to impress his family who were putting down his ability to do anything, and then he just got scolded.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: cottontailcake on August 02, 2014, 07:05:43 AM
I want to say something in reply, but Toudou gives me about -10% inspiration, so I... not happening.

I bet he was one of those kids who saw the garden as his personal buffet.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on August 02, 2014, 08:00:10 AM
Oh yes. Definitely a 'weird nerd' type who went 1000% over the edge.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Karen on August 03, 2014, 04:55:48 AM
Okay, I may have mentioned this before, but I have a crack theory that Yukio and Izumo see the same psychiatrist, which naturally leads to some pretty... interesting therapy sessions...  ;)  ;D
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on August 03, 2014, 05:35:13 AM
I want Yukio and Rin to see the same psychiatrist. And him realising that their issues are the same, and rubbing it in their faces because they are too stupid to see it themselves.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Karen on August 03, 2014, 06:21:31 AM
 ;)  ;D Reminds me of a fan fic where Rin and Yukio do see the same psychiatrist. Rin gets off with a diagnosis of very mild Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder, but poor Yukio is diagnosed with Schizoid Personality Disorder!
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on August 03, 2014, 07:16:59 AM
If this is a normal psychiatrist, they might also walk out with a diagnosis of Chuunibyou. (Is that an officially diagnosed thing?)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: cottontailcake on August 03, 2014, 10:14:25 AM
ahhaaa... my google-fu turned out something that equated to 'anime character' for that strange word on the first attempt... but I think I get it. Sounds about right.

I would like to see them trying to avoid that diagnosis.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on August 03, 2014, 01:32:59 PM
;)  ;D Reminds me of a fan fic where Rin and Yukio do see the same psychiatrist. Rin gets off with a diagnosis of very mild Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder, but poor Yukio is diagnosed with Schizoid Personality Disorder!

That sounds like it might fit him, actually. Besides, if Belle can do it... :))
http://www.cracked.com/article_19336_6-beloved-characters-that-had-undiagnosed-mental-illnesses.html

But really, looking at the list here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizoid_personality_disorder#Diagnosis), I fit half of the symptoms myself. That's when this line comes in:

Quote
It is a requirement of ICD-10 that a diagnosis of any specific personality disorder also satisfies a set of general personality disorder criteria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder#Diagnosis).

Yukio acts detached, but there are plenty of explanations that don't involve a disorder, and it doesn't seem to be out of his control or disrupt his life.

If fact, I still think Shima is a better candidate for mental illness. If anyone has trouble forming bonds, it's him.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on August 03, 2014, 08:35:33 PM
Chuunibyou means "Middle School Second Year Syndrome" and it's where someone believes or pretends that they are "special" somehow. That they're a hero, or a demon, or have special powers. Usually they do this for attention or in desperation to believe they are something more than average or mundane.

I think you can see why a psychiatrist might diagnose Rin with that. Until he proves he's not kidding by setting fire to things.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: cottontailcake on August 03, 2014, 08:58:27 PM
... not unless he actually lets them burn with real flames, 'cause I hear his 'burning but not consuming' shtick would be invisible to them. Well -- I think that differs between anime and manga.

Anyway, psychiatrist (probably psychologist?) will now be freaking out about the fact that their client has given them a hallucinogen. Can't see this ending well. :D
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on August 03, 2014, 09:00:40 PM
I'm pretty sure the Order has their own specialists...

Though I still don't understand why they didn't bother to give Rin a quick check-up first. You know, just to make sure that your walking flamethrower isn't also a sadistic psycho.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on August 03, 2014, 09:15:08 PM
This will never happen but I need to write it down:

The necklace Paku was looking for before going to the dance is magical and makes her inmune to Yamantaka's flames because she can cage her soul inside of it. It has the drawn back it makes her vulnerable to Puppet Masters like the Puppet/Nemu.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: cottontailcake on August 03, 2014, 09:20:19 PM
I'm pretty sure the Order has their own specialists...

Though I still don't understand why they didn't bother to give Rin a quick check-up first. You know, just to make sure that your walking flamethrower isn't also a sadistic psycho.
Maybe they trust Mephisto's judgement ... (okay, okay, I'm smirking in amusement at that idea. I don't think it's worth much.)

The first time they discovered him was after the Amaimon camping fight, right? It's a bit funny you should say that since they were already set on percieving him as a potential enemy...
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on August 03, 2014, 09:32:02 PM
^ Yeah, but then they let him walk out of the courtroom just like that.

I was convinced they'd throw him in jail for a few days to ask him some questions.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Wikkelsoee on August 03, 2014, 11:09:17 PM
^ He'd probably just break out using a lame excuse like "I have to take care of my job as headmaster". Either that or he'd stay in there for the lulz (but the Order wouldn't get much out of that either).
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on August 03, 2014, 11:15:13 PM
I was talking about Rin, not Mephisto.

I'm pretty sure they already figured that throwing Mephisto in jail is useless.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Wikkelsoee on August 04, 2014, 12:38:55 PM
Oh, I see ^^;; Sorry.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on August 07, 2014, 11:58:30 AM
New theory:

Remember the spy Shura was talking about, the one that "was observing Rin and Yukio to check for evidence of something related to Satan?" It's Angeline-sensei. Angeline-Sensei is actually a golem that belongs to Angel. Not a real human being.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Karen on August 11, 2014, 11:49:02 PM
 ;D Kay, thought this would be funny! Some characters already have nicknames in the manga canon (Four eyed mole, scaredy cat four eyes, four eyed chicken, Baldy, etc) and some we've made up (Pig face) so how about some more cracky nicknames? Another good one for Yukio - Pharaoh, King Of Denial! LOL! Got that from the Pam Tillis song!
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Poppy on October 12, 2014, 01:14:41 PM
Hey guys, there's a little something I found on a tumblr, but it's about chapter 61. I wondered where to post this at first, but I guess this is the right place since it's all about theories... So, in case some of you are still waiting the fan scanlation, I'll put everything under spoiler :

(click to show/hide)

Any crazy theory, anyone ?  ::)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: facets-and-rainbows on October 12, 2014, 05:20:25 PM
I happen to know the actual answer from Kazue's twitter and some Jump Square ads:

(click to show/hide)

But I like the "Renzou's dead brother" theory better maybe he didn't die; he just moved away, changed his name, and took up tennis. ;D
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Poppy on October 13, 2014, 07:15:37 AM
^ Oh riiight... I had completely forgotten about that, even though it was discussed in the main thread XD
As I can't read japanese and I don't know Prince of Tennis (just the name), I wouldn't have been able to figure it out.
Haha, crap, I liked my theory too. (and it's even better with the "I give up on Myou Dha and go for tennis" thing  ;D)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on October 14, 2014, 10:31:11 PM
New theory: The Illuminati German Twins aren't actually twins, but clones. There are a bajillion of other Lunds and Stroms sleeping in the basement, ready to be awakened for the end days.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Wikkelsoee on October 15, 2014, 06:42:07 PM
Where did they even say they were German? It sounds more like Swedish names to me (especially since Lund is a city in Sweden)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on October 15, 2014, 08:25:49 PM
We're calling them the German Twins just because, I think. They can be the Swedish Twins if you want.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on October 15, 2014, 08:27:16 PM
Come to think of it, what was the 'Waffen-SS' from Google Translate? Was that about the twins or something else?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: chinonamida on October 22, 2014, 11:01:08 PM
Come to think of it, what was the 'Waffen-SS' from Google Translate? Was that about the twins or something else?
That was probably for the guards.

(I'm bored. Can you tell?)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on October 23, 2014, 12:00:15 AM
(I'm bored. Can you tell?)

Yeah, the forum has gone really calm.

Someone post some more topics.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: DemonGirl-Setsuna on October 28, 2014, 07:23:09 PM
(Not 100% sure this is the correct thread to post this... :-\)

None of the Demon Kings we've seen seem to have Blue-flames. (That we know of...)

What if this is because; despite being "children" of Satan, they're not biologically his kids.
They're; in a lack of a better-word, adopted!

Satan: "You are powerful, become my son/daughter!"

Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on October 28, 2014, 07:52:37 PM
Oh this is the perfect place to post it. It makes sense too!
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on October 28, 2014, 08:05:40 PM
(Not 100% sure this is the correct thread to post this... :-\)

None of the Demon Kings we've seen seem to have Blue-flames. (That we know of...)

What if this is because; despite being "children" of Satan, they're not biologically his kids.
They're; in a lack of a better-word, adopted!

Satan: "You are powerful, become my son/daughter!"

For some odd reason, I can see that happening. It could also explain  why some have an undying loyalty for him while others utterly despise him/don't care.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: GolPhee on October 30, 2014, 10:21:34 AM
^I'm not sure why this is a crack theory. I thought it was kinda obvious, I mean, why on earth would Satan care about some half-human illegitimate son if he already had 8 considerably more powerful pureblood children? I always figured the "father" thing was more like the homunculus in FMA B
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on October 30, 2014, 11:39:07 AM
^ Because Rin has a body in Assiah? So Satan can possess it?

Didn't he pretty much say as much in the first chapter?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on October 30, 2014, 03:00:19 PM
No he just said he needs Rin to 'help take over the world!!!!! Mwahaha!' It's too vague, he never said how.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on October 30, 2014, 06:38:07 PM
He did say his problem was that he didn't have a body to possess. Either way, that's probably what makes Rin special.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on October 30, 2014, 08:22:38 PM
In the first chapter Satan says to Rin:

Quote
"There is one thing I don't have, you know what it is? A substance in this world powerful enough to contain me. Anything I touch in this world is doom to destruction. (..) It's Assiah that I want. It was out of mere boredom that I created you, but I have realised it was a master-stroke. You exist in the world of Assiah and yet bear the blood of the God of Gehenna."
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: GolPhee on October 30, 2014, 08:56:57 PM
^ True, but if that were the sole reason, surely Satan would have tried to possess, or at least recapture Rin already. I think the demon kings are of Satan's essence for sure, but I don't think they're related to him biologically.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: chinonamida on October 30, 2014, 11:24:58 PM
What Satan says in the first chapter is basically:

Let's go to Gehenna.
Will have to destroy that thing [Kanji: sword] to free you from this seal/curse.

Regain your power [Kanji: true nature] as a demon.

I'm a perfect entity who reigns_over/controls/dominates/unifies all powers/forces/authorities.
But even someone sush as me, have one little flaw/downside. Do you get what that is?
That is, here, in Assiah, there is no equivalent matter.
The matter affected by me immediately breaks.

I want Assiah.
You exist in Assiah while being a god of gehenna; while drawing my blood [Kanji: flames]. ["drawing blood" means "inheriting from"/"being the descendant of"]

In order for me to obtain Assiah, you are indispensable.
Today you will be reborn.


In other words:

I want to exist in Assiah but everything I possess burns.
That's why I need you. You can exist in Assiha and you are powerful enough to resist my flames.
So let's go to gehenna and make you regain your demon power/nature so I can possess you and go to Assiah.

or

I want to rule over Assiah but everything I possess burns.
That's why I need you. You can exist in Assiha and you are powerful enough to rule it.
So let's go to gehenna and make you regain your demon power/nature so I can make you my representative and send you back to Assiah.


With the first interpretation, we don't know what Satan needs to do to possess Rin and what he's waiting for.

But there's one major flaw with the second interpretation. If Satan can't exist in Assiah, what forces Rin to listen to him? It can end up like Mephisto. This plan as so many chances to backfire, I wouldn't call that a master plan.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on October 30, 2014, 11:53:59 PM
My gut instinct tells me that Satan is too much of a narcissist to even consider that Rin and Mephisto wouldn't listen to him. And Lucifer is going to give him a body anyway, I don't know why he needs Rin now. I assume it's not that hard for him to possess something. The only exception is if Rin's half-demon status makes it hard somehow.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: chinonamida on October 31, 2014, 12:59:16 AM
My gut instinct tells me that Satan is too much of a narcissist to even consider that Rin and Mephisto wouldn't listen to him.
I think he knows demons can do whatever they want in Assiah.
When he sent Amaimon to ask Mephisto when he'll come back to Gehenna, it sure sounded like Satan asked Mephisto to come back for quite a while but Mephisto never obliged.
The fact everything in Assiah is out of his control is what makes him hate not being able to go there.

Quote
And Lucifer is going to give him a body anyway, I don't know why he needs Rin now.
Yes. Still we don't know what's the deal Satan made with Mephisto.
Satan most likely plays on many tables.

Quote
I assume it's not that hard for him to possess something. The only exception is if Rin's half-demon status makes it hard somehow.
Izumo is a ?% demon and it made possession easier.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on October 31, 2014, 04:40:15 AM
Quote
I assume it's not that hard for him to possess something. The only exception is if Rin's half-demon status makes it hard somehow.
Izumo is a ?% demon and it made possession easier.

It made possession "easier" for the kyubi and through an specific ritual to get it in her body.

And it seamed that more than "easier" it was meant for her body should have been able to withstand the power without rotting.

Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: sand dragon on November 15, 2014, 11:34:57 PM
CAUTION: CRACK!!!!

Shiro is the twin's father. and I mean their real, biological father.
Satan possesed Shiro while he and Yuri were doing it. It was in the blue night, and Satan were tring to do it with lots of people, and succeeded with Shiro and Yuri. Shiro managed to drive him away, but he didn't remembered being possesed and all.
Araond that time he got a mission to kill Satan's kids, and that is when he meets with Bon's father and all. When Shiro finds out that the kids he have to kill are actually his kids he refuses to kill them and than Mephisto showes up and offer to help him hide them. Yuri dies at childbirth and Shiro accepts Mepphy's offer. That is also when he learns that Satan is capeable of possesing him and is actually after his body so he tough his defences.
And then Rin yells at him not to act like his dad and he can't hold Satan anymore.


It sounds more like a fanfic than a crack theory... Well, watever (O_o)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on November 16, 2014, 08:29:55 PM
^ I hope that's not true. I like the idea that Shiro is the kind of guy who would save the kids because he sees it as the right thing to do, and not just because they're his.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on November 16, 2014, 08:36:20 PM
I thought he had an incompatible blood type anyway?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: DemonGirl-Setsuna on November 16, 2014, 09:08:44 PM
I thought he had an incompatible blood type anyway?
Um, I don't know how the blood-type possibility between parents works...

But just for reference, here's their blood-types:
Rin: A
Yukio: O
Shiro: AB
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Wikkelsoee on November 16, 2014, 09:12:42 PM
Shirou can't be the biological father if Yukio's blood type is O. A and B are dominant while O is recessive. If Shirou had children, they would either be A, B or AB (depending on the woman's blood type) because he isn't a carrier of the O allele (which both the mother and the father have to be carriers of if the child has the blood type O)).

This means it's impossible for Lightning to be the father too. Not that it matters, but I think someone made a crack about that a while back
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: DemonGirl-Setsuna on November 16, 2014, 09:45:20 PM
Well, there is the incalculable factor of demon-possession...

I mean, we don't fully-know what happens to the body during possession.
The blood-type could possibly change during that time, because of the demon. Yep, I'm adding to the crackiness...!
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: chinonamida on November 17, 2014, 03:58:25 AM
CAUTION: CRACK!!!!

Shiro is the twin's father. and I mean their real, biological father.
Satan possesed Shiro while he and Yuri were doing it. It was in the blue night, and Satan were tring to do it with lots of people, and succeeded with Shiro and Yuri. Shiro managed to drive him away, but he didn't remembered being possesed and all.
Araond that time he got a mission to kill Satan's kids, and that is when he meets with Bon's father and all. When Shiro finds out that the kids he have to kill are actually his kids he refuses to kill them and than Mephisto showes up and offer to help him hide them. Yuri dies at childbirth and Shiro accepts Mepphy's offer. That is also when he learns that Satan is capeable of possesing him and is actually after his body so he tough his defences.
And then Rin yells at him not to act like his dad and he can't hold Satan anymore.


It sounds more like a fanfic than a crack theory... Well, watever (O_o)
The blue night comes after Shiro met Tatsuma though.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: DemonGirl-Setsuna on November 17, 2014, 05:17:58 AM
I have my own theory concerning Blue Night...

What if the Blue Night happened because Satan realized that he had conceived a child/children after his "frisky fun-time" with Yuri; whether it was consensual or not, and he begun possessing anyone/everyone in an attempt to locate the child(ren). (With the Blue Night happening after Rin & Yukio were born...)

And Yuri was one of the ones possessed; hence why Satan knows about Rin, but Shiro happened to be there to prevent the kidnapping. (And Yukio possibly still being in the womb during the possession...)

Which kind of explains why Yukio couldn't find any information on his & Rin's birth,
1. The Vatican wouldn't put it on official-report that one of their exorcists' had a child with Satan. Keeping it hush-hush.
2. Yuri could be listed on the list of casualties from Blue Night. If she's dead that is...

As for a reason why Shiro spared Rin; and possibly Yukio too, is simply because the twins were innocent-babies who happen to have been born victims of Satan. (I mean they didn't ask to be born and you can't chose who your birth-parents are...)

Edit:
X-Posted in Birth of the twins (and maybe Blue Night incident) (http://www.theblueknight.host-ed.me/forum/index.php/topic,310.60.html).
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: chinonamida on November 17, 2014, 05:27:50 AM
^This is not a crack theory. This is more or less the leading theory. X)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: DemonGirl-Setsuna on November 17, 2014, 05:31:17 AM
^This is not a crack theory. This is more or less the leading theory. X)
Where should it be posted then?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: chinonamida on November 17, 2014, 05:44:04 AM
Where should it be posted then?
No No, that's Ok. It's just funny.

It doesn't matter if a post is not 100% on topic. Don't sweat it.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Elaedan on November 17, 2014, 09:44:50 AM
Late for the party but I finally read what you had discussed while I was absent. I'll try to comment something, hopefully nothing stupid... Plus this is going to look stupid because I am on my phone and can't edit posts properly -.-  It is long so I'll put it under spoiler:


(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on December 23, 2014, 08:19:15 AM
Back in the day, long before Fukaku slayed the Impure King, in the olden days when the deity Fudo still used the Kurikara....

It originally hosted Yamantaka.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on July 24, 2015, 05:44:20 PM
Ok, the forum has been awfully quiet these past few days. And since I don't have anything to do for the afternoon except sitting on a surprisingly uncomfortable armchair next to my grandmother's bed at the clinic, I'm bringing this theory back, and bringing it up to eleven:

Ok, so I was thinking.

Igor Neuhaus is 39, right?

So he must have been like 23-24 when the Blue Night happened.

He said he was possessed by Satan for a short period of time (enough for him to survive having only lost his eye) and that he "lost his family as they approached to try to help" him:

(click to show/hide)

That Satan murdered his family using his hands:

(click to show/hide)

And we see that woman giving us her back. And she has curly/wavy hair.

Who else is dead and Kazue designed her with wavy/curly long hair?

(click to show/hide)

What if... What if Satan raped Yuri using Neuhaus body. She then found herself pregnant  but it didn't cross their mind it was Satan's. But when Rin was born his flames killed Yuri, hence Neuhaus hatred.

-------------- Ok, that was crack as hell.

Ok, now let's remember Neuhaus' wife anime counterpart Spiderwoman/Michelle:
(click to show/hide)

She had that wooden staff that was quite durable... It could clash with Shura's demon sword and all...

Which reminded me of:

(click to show/hide)

So, basically I'm saying:

Nauhaus wife=Yuri=Lady Boss.

I mean, since the IK Arc some stuff from the manga has started to show concepts that were in the final filler of the anime.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: SimpleBliss on July 24, 2015, 06:12:51 PM
I know it's crack and isn't supposed to make sense but I'm just going to kill it and say that there's no way that Neuhaus can be the father because he has AB blood and couldn't produce an O child (Yukio)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on July 24, 2015, 06:39:20 PM
I know it's crack and isn't supposed to make sense but I'm just going to kill it and say that there's no way that Neuhaus can be the father because he has AB blood and couldn't produce an O child (Yukio)

Given that Yukio seems to have also inherited demonic powers... The one who needs to have the O allele should be Satan, not Neuhaus.

The whole demon possession thing adds a wild factor into the equation.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: SimpleBliss on July 24, 2015, 06:40:33 PM
Yeah, like

Can Satan even pass on alleles?

God I just want to know what happennneeedddddddd the TRUTH will set me free!
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on July 24, 2015, 06:53:44 PM
Or maybe Kato doesn't know/care about how blood types are passed down and she gave the characters their blood types on the basis of that belief that their influence personality.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on July 24, 2015, 07:15:19 PM
Er. If the father doesn't have the correct bloodtype, you can be sure 20 people will point it out to her before the next chapter, so I hope she has someone to check such things for her.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: chinonamida on July 24, 2015, 08:05:30 PM
Yeah, like

Can Satan even pass on alleles?

Or, before that, does Satan even have blood?

In chapter one, he tells Rin "you draw my blood" (i.e. "you're my descendant"), but the kanji for "blood" is replaced with the kanji for "flames". "Drawing blood" is just a common expression for "descending from", though it seems to me Katou wanted to specify something here...
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: earthforge on July 24, 2015, 09:53:21 PM
Back in the day, long before Fukaku slayed the Impure King, in the olden days when the deity Fudo still used the Kurikara....

It originally hosted Yamantaka.

So I was doing some fic research on Hinduism and Buddhism, and found some interesting stuff about the Myou Dha related demons.

Myouou Dharani is a made-up sect. It literally translates to "Wisdom God mantra".

Myo-o are deities in Esoteric Buddhism. Among them are Acala (Fudo myo-o), Ucchusma (Ususma myo-o), and Yamantaka (daiitoku myo-o).

It stands to reason that Myou Dha might have contracts with them all.

Do we know what domain Yamantaka is in?

Ok, now let's remember Neuhaus' wife anime counterpart Spiderwoman/Michelle:
(click to show/hide)

She had that wooden staff that was quite durable... It could clash with Shura's demon sword and all...

Which reminded me of:

(click to show/hide)

So, basically I'm saying:

Nauhaus wife=Yuri=Lady Boss.

I mean, since the IK Arc some stuff from the manga has started to show concepts that were in the final filler of the anime.

Oh jeebus. While I don't think Noihaus's wife is Yuri, Lady Boss could be Noihaus' wife.

I hope we figure out what's going on with Noihaus.

(S2s released their version of chapter 69 btw.)

Or, before that, does Satan even have blood?

In chapter one, he tells Rin "you draw my blood" (i.e. "you're my descendant"), but the kanji for "blood" is replaced with the kanji for "flames". "Drawing blood" is just a common expression for "descending from", though it seems to me Katou wanted to specify something here...

Yeah, blue flames is the key indicator of Satan shenanigans in the manga. I don't think it has anything to do with blood.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on July 24, 2015, 10:03:14 PM
Oh, well, I am bored to death, figured it was worth checking to see if Kato respected the way blood types are inherited in the case of the Suguro Family (I think they are the only family of which we have the info on both parents).

Bon -> B

Torako -> AB

Tatsuma -> B

Note, Torako's and Tatsuma's blood types are from the wikia, which has had the blood types wrong before.

Ok, now people who actually know how this works, do the checking.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on July 24, 2015, 10:21:46 PM
^ It works. It would even work if only one of the parents (either one) was his real parent.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: chinonamida on July 24, 2015, 10:40:13 PM
Do we know what domain Yamantaka is in?
By domain, you mean kin?
If we do I don't remember, but I'd guess fire.
Especially since every demons related to the Shima family are fire demons. And they also have these flames tattoos; well at least Yaozou does.

Quote
Yeah, blue flames is the key indicator of Satan shenanigans in the manga. I don't think it has anything to do with blood.
We still don't have proof demons have blood. *shrug*

Ok, now people who actually know how this works, do the checking.
It's easy, just see O type as OO, A type as AO, B type as BO and AB as AB.
Then each parent always gives one of the letter, so we have:
OO+OO=OO
OO+AO=OO/AO
OO+BO=OO/BO
AO+AO=OO/AO/AA
BO+BO=OO/BO/BB
AO+BO=OO/AO/BO/AB
OO+AB=AO/BO
AO+AB=AO/AA/BO/AB
BO+AB=AO/BO/BB/AB
AB+AB=AA/BB/AB
(With AA and BB becoming AO and BO for later calculation. O actually stands for Zero, which means the absence of A or B.)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: facets-and-rainbows on July 25, 2015, 08:43:34 AM
So, basically I'm saying:

Nauhaus wife=Yuri=Lady Boss.

I know it's crack and isn't supposed to make sense but I'm just going to kill it and say that there's no way that Neuhaus can be the father because he has AB blood and couldn't produce an O child (Yukio)

I am here to rescue the crack theory with CRACK GENETICS! I KNEW all this useless trivia from my undergrad degree would come in handy!

Okay so with Neuhaus/Yuri we're looking at something like this (assuming Yuri has at least one O because Yukio seems to have two and they have to come from somewhere):

AB (Neuhaus) + ?O (Yuri) = AA or AO (Rin) + OO (Yukio)

This doesn't add up to Yukio. Where'd he get a second O from an AB dad? Well, everything in biology has exceptions and there's at least three (all very rare) ways an AB parent can have an O child:

(click to show/hide)

The theory lives! (on life support)

As for the "does Satan even have blood?" question, I've always kind of headcanoned that the demon and human parts of a half-demon are formed separately and then fuse somehow. Like, Yuri and Satan's human host make an embryo the normal way, and Satan makes a demon heart for it in whatever way demons do, and then the baby demon is stuck possessing that baby human body permanently, and they end up having a single mind and everything. So the kid would get a human body from its human parents (complete with real working blood!), and powers from the demon parent. Pointy ears etc happen because that happens to everyone who's possessed by a demon, even when they also ARE the demon.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on July 25, 2015, 12:35:34 PM
Facets, you are a beautiful person...

But how does a person know if they have Bombay blood or O blood without going through the unsuccessful transfusion first?  Cause unsuccessful transfusions sound sorta dangerous.

And 1 in 100,000 is 0.00001% of the population... if your population is 128,056,026 that's 12.8056026 people. Almost 13 people!

So basically this theory depends on Kato either :

- not knowing/caring about blood genetics.
- knowing and caring a lot about blood genetics.
- the random factor of demon genetics.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: kirarin on July 27, 2015, 08:00:03 AM
is it possible for satan to have a bloodtype? let's say he had no container when he conceived the twins inside yuri, would he still able to contribute those genetics stuff or its completely yuri's alone? i alway saw satan as an out of this world entity. he is a demon and not some human species  its kinda confusing or kato just didnt care and wrote any letter in their blood types. the nehaus theory is quite outrageous but i kinda like it though
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: questdrivencollie on July 27, 2015, 10:59:20 AM
Yeah, like

Can Satan even pass on alleles?

God I just want to know what happennneeedddddddd the TRUTH will set me free!
I don't see how Rin could have inherited anything from him otherwise, but this is fiction sooooooooooooooo

Quote
Yeah, blue flames is the key indicator of Satan shenanigans in the manga. I don't think it has anything to do with blood.
We still don't have proof demons have blood. *shrug*

Does "the blood of Gehenna runs through your veins" count, or is that an English translation/dub only line?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: chinonamida on July 27, 2015, 04:41:47 PM
is it possible for satan to have a bloodtype? let's say he had no container when he conceived the twins inside yuri, would he still able to contribute those genetics stuff or its completely yuri's alone?
If there was only Yuri's genetic code available, then Yukio and Rin would be clones of Yuri.

I don't see how Rin could have inherited anything from him otherwise, but this is fiction sooooooooooooooo
It's hard to see if we only think about genetic inheritance. But I guess half demons inherits from demons through some other means.
We still don't know how Demon reproduce; for all we know they could just be reproducing like how when you part a fire in two you then have two fires or when you cut some plants in two you then have two plants. Think about it, most of them are made of stuff like fire or water or light... Maybe demons grow in size as their power grows and they just use part of themselves to create other demons. Just picture some high level rot demon oozing coaltars like it's sweat, or high level fire demon leaving low level fire demons in it's wake every time it takes a step.

Does "the blood of Gehenna runs through your veins" count, or is that an English translation/dub only line?
Where is that line from?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tardar-sauce on July 27, 2015, 10:21:21 PM
First chapter. They couldn't do the blood/fire kanji furigana thing.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: chinonamida on July 27, 2015, 11:45:00 PM
^Ah, so it really is that line.

And I guess, like when Lucifer said it, they also didn't translate correctly the part where Satan says Rin is a "god of Gehenna".
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: SimpleBliss on March 19, 2016, 02:55:53 PM
A crack headcanon that I half dreamed/half thought of, where after Shura, Yukio and Rin come back from this crazy endeavour, Shura celebrates her extended life with lots and lots of alcohol. She also thinks it's a good idea to get Yukio very drunk, and teases him endlessly until he caves and, not wanting to "lose," starts drinking. You know what they say about alcohol: it's like a truth serum. He gets drunk enough that he accidentally starts spilling some of the secrets he's been keeping to Shura, who realizes and starts strategically questioning him to get more info.

One reason this might not actually work in canon: Yukio's probably hid his secrets so deep down that even drunk Yukio won't spill anything.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: earthforge on May 04, 2016, 03:12:27 AM
I've been thinking about what Shura said about Shiro changing after he started taking care of the Okumura twins. We saw that when Shiro was forced into taking care of a kid previously, he tolerated her until he could dump her in an orphanage. He was a cold guy. Later on he took in the Okumura twins, who are pretty clearly adopted.

I wonder if the only reason Shiro took in the twins is because they were Yuri's children.

*All on-board the crack theory train!

What if Shiro loved Yuri, but that love wasn't reciprocated? To her, he was only a friend. She made it clear she didn't love him and was mad that he persisted in having romantic interest on her. Maybe, she went on a ill-fated mission one day. There were signs it wouldn't go well, but she was stubborn about gong. When he tried to stop her, she yelled at him "don't ever call yourself my friend again!" That was the mission where Satan raped her.

Then, years later, Shiro gets into an argument with Yuri's son who finally yells "don't ever call yourself my father again". In that moment it all comes right back to him, and he snapped.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Karen on May 04, 2016, 04:55:14 AM
Quote
*All on-board the crack theory train!

What if Shiro loved Yuri, but that love wasn't reciprocated? To her, he was only a friend. She made it clear she didn't love him and was mad that he persisted in having romantic interest on her. Maybe, she went on a ill-fated mission one day. There were signs it wouldn't go well, but she was stubborn about gong. When he tried to stop her, she yelled at him "don't ever call yourself my friend again!" That was the mission where Satan raped her.

Then, years later, Shiro gets into an argument with Yuri's son who finally yells "don't ever call yourself my father again". In that moment it all comes right back to him, and he snapped.

You know, that doesn't even sound like crack! Actually fits and makes allot of sense! 🙂

Anyone ever seen Tokyo Ghoul? I have a crack crossover theory that the CCG called in the True Cross for help in dealing with the ghoul problem. Rin and Yukio were sent to investigate in Tokyo, stopped for a little coffie and a nice place called Anteiku and... Well... Get's pretty interesting and complicated from there... 😅
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: kirarin on May 04, 2016, 06:02:32 AM
Quote
*All on-board the crack theory train!

What if Shiro loved Yuri, but that love wasn't reciprocated? To her, he was only a friend. She made it clear she didn't love him and was mad that he persisted in having romantic interest on her. Maybe, she went on a ill-fated mission one day. There were signs it wouldn't go well, but she was stubborn about gong. When he tried to stop her, she yelled at him "don't ever call yourself my friend again!" That was the mission where Satan raped her.

Then, years later, Shiro gets into an argument with Yuri's son who finally yells "don't ever call yourself my father again". In that moment it all comes right back to him, and he snapped.

You know, that doesn't even sound like crack! Actually fits and makes allot of sense! 🙂

Anyone ever seen Tokyo Ghoul? I have a crack crossover theory that the CCG called in the True Cross for help in dealing with the ghoul problem. Rin and Yukio were sent to investigate in Tokyo, stopped for a little coffie and a nice place called Anteiku and... Well... Get's pretty interesting and complicated from there... 😅
this is even better than canon! this could be another manga with ccg and exorcists.  im mindblown. this is wishing kato sensei and ishida sensei collaborate on something. aoex would be more fun to read if another demon/ghoul organization would enter the scene.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Madow on May 04, 2016, 04:16:45 PM
Tokyo ghoul would be interesting but wouldn't D.Gray Man fit it better over all as they both share exorcists etc and isn't it getting a new manga or something like that?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Karen on May 04, 2016, 05:04:47 PM
Well, DGray Man is set in a fictional universe while Blue Exorcist and Tokyo Ghoul are both set in modern day Japan, so I think they'd fit better. Maybe Rin and Hide would get along and talk about how they wish Yukio and Kaneki would open up to them more. Of course Yukio and Kaneki would be a major angst fest! Heh! 😅
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: ToonamiRaid on May 10, 2016, 12:37:13 AM
Post them up it feels like I haven't been to this site in two months lol. It is great to see blue exorcist back :)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on November 07, 2016, 02:49:12 AM
So, I might as well put this one out there:

Since the Illuminati stuff started in the manga, some of the weird original stuff from the anime has started to look like actual canon plot points that were just unfinished at the time and so the anime team made up stuff to fill the holes and it was awful.

One of the weird anime original things was Neuhaus having his dead wife's corpse preserved to try and resurrect her.

What if Nauhaus wife is in this pocket dimension created to preserve The Asylum. And Neuhaus is working on the elixir, under the promise he might be able to resurrect her with it?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on November 07, 2016, 02:51:43 AM
As long as they don't wrap her in greenman stuff and leave them on Shiemi's porch, I guess I'd be find with something like that happening.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Wikkelsoee on November 07, 2016, 08:33:25 AM
And as long as she doesn't look like she's a teenager like she did in the anime, I'm fine with it.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: earthforge on November 28, 2016, 10:58:45 PM
So here's a silly theory that'll almost certainly be proved wrong in the next two chapters: What if Maria Yoshida actually was a relative of Shiemi's, and that's why they look so similar? What if the Moriyamas are part of a bigger family that split over which side to choose in the war, Illuminati or True Cross Order?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Dewchorom on November 30, 2016, 09:22:12 AM
What if Maria is Shiemi's sister and the "Yoshida" is because of Shiemi's father? >w<
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: kirarin on November 30, 2016, 09:34:23 AM
what if maria and shiemi's mum were sisters working both for the illuminati?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: timebunny526 on December 10, 2016, 10:03:17 PM
This has to do with chapter 85.
Silly but what if Shiemi's grandmother worked at the Asylum and both Shiemi and her mom are both from the experiments. Maybe before or during the the Blue Night they escaped. Probably has DNA from Amaimon thus the garden demons easy going nature with Shiemi's grandmother.   
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: kirarin on December 11, 2016, 05:46:17 AM
when lightning said they were making clones of demon kings 1 thing got in my mind and that was an in troduction of a new demon king. it sounds too sudden and the plot right now would get too crowded if a demon king was to be introduced right now. but! what if they scan the site further and have more clues to the other demon kings ?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: just-a-random-exorcist on December 11, 2016, 12:43:37 PM
when lightning said they were making clones of demon kings 1 thing got in my mind and that was an in troduction of a new demon king. it sounds too sudden and the plot right now would get too crowded if a demon king was to be introduced right now. but! what if they scan the site further and have more clues to the other demon kings ?

I think Mephisto is planning to create a bunch of hosts with high regenerative ability for other demon kings. I kinda think that he is trying to get other demon kings on his side so that he can defeat Lucifer and Satan. Once that two are defeated, Mephisto will be the most powerful demon in Gehenna. That is my cracked theory.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on December 11, 2016, 04:28:51 PM
I think Mephisto is planning to create a bunch of hosts with high regenerative ability for other demon kings. I kinda think that he is trying to get other demon kings on his side so that he can defeat Lucifer and Satan. Once that two are defeated, Mephisto will be the most powerful demon in Gehenna. That is my cracked theory.
That... that doesn't sound that far-fetched actually.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Taytronics7 on February 01, 2017, 04:50:26 PM
My crack theory is that Shiemi's mother isn't her real mother, Maria Yoshida is. That would explain why they look and act in a similar way. I also like to think that Maria and Shiemi's mother are sisters. Maria probably couldn't take care of Shiemi due to being in the Illuminati, so she gave her to be raised by her sister. It would explain why Shiemi's mother let the grandmother raise Shiemi. She wasn't expecting to raise any children and already had to manage the shop.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Luzmela on February 22, 2017, 09:38:50 PM
I think also that we can consider Shiemi's grandmother a clone. Perhaps in her young years she has blond hair and green big eyes. Maybe the accidend in which she lost her life was not an accident.

About the traitor... one creepy part of me tells me that it could be the mother of Shiemi. That would be shocking but my husband pointed me another character out: Koneko. He has told nobody could suspect of Konekomaru and that would be a great surprise. I don't know. Perhaps that plot of the traitor is only a Cluedo game that Kato through her alter ego Mephisto enjoys to play with us. ❤ Everyone can be the traitor.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tandem on February 23, 2017, 10:49:56 AM
He has told nobody could suspect of Konekomaru and that would be a great surprise. I don't know. Perhaps that plot of the traitor is only a Cluedo game that Kato through her alter ego Mephisto enjoys to play with us. ❤ Everyone can be the traitor.

For the traitor, if it is the one Mephisto talked about in Chapter 87, it almost can't be Koneko. Mephisto said the traitor stole experiment results in Section 13 to Lucifer, so even if it was not before the blue night I don't think it would be too long after that, while Koneko was only a little child. Moreover, Koneko only came to Tokyo several months ago.

However, it will be really interesting if the traitor was Koneko's father ...
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on March 26, 2017, 08:37:41 PM
Totally random but, what if Arthur is the one who leaked the intel of Section13 to the Illuminati and his amnesia somehow allows him to bypass the Morinas contract?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NoireShot on April 14, 2017, 07:58:47 PM
I don't know if this really belongs here or someone already mentioned this..but Mephisto's Name-choice just bugs me. I mean, as Samael. He chose the name Mephisto Pheles around...some people and "Johann Faust" around...regular humans? (He used that name like once in front of Rin and in the beginning so~?)

If the name holds any regard to the myth/tragedy written by Goethe, then what does it imply? In the anime I think there was a nudge to the myth where Mephisto implied he was that demon back then or sth. Because if Kazue didn't just name him that way for the sake of having a cool-sounding name with a bit of demon history, then maybe there is more to it. See in the myth it seemed the devil snatched Faust's soul and thus won the bet/pact. In the tragedy (by Goethe, bc I think his take on it is a bit more popluar) the demon named Mephisto actually lost. He lost because he underestimated humanity (and Faust). Faust was the one that won the bet/pact. So in regard to ANE it just bugs me that the name our mastermind Samael goes by the name Mephisto. By the name of the demon that lost his bet. So basically what I'm playing at is what if further down the road in the story one of Mephisto's plans just plain out fails. No bigger mastermind-plan behind it. Just showing the characters (and the fans) that no one is really safe from misjudging situations. I mean what kind of blog-twist would that be if the one character that seems like he's playing everything on a play-safe ground was to fail and loose his bets.

(I'm propably reading to much into something that maybe only bothers me. Maybe Kazue was playing at the myth or just gave him that name for phonetic reasons or bc it rings a bell for many)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tandem on April 15, 2017, 08:14:11 AM
it just bugs me that the name our mastermind Samael goes by the name Mephisto. By the name of the demon that lost his bet. So basically what I'm playing at is what if further down the road in the story one of Mephisto's plans just plain out fails. No bigger mastermind-plan behind it. Just showing the characters (and the fans) that no one is really safe from misjudging situations. I mean what kind of blog-twist would that be if the one character that seems like he's playing everything on a play-safe ground was to fail and loose his bets.
In my opinion, since we don't know the detail of his plans, we are not sure if his plans are all that smoothly successful in the story yet. Just as Shura once asked him (http://www.mangapanda.com/ao-no-exorcist/34/17)

I think the major direction is OK. But probably Rin's growth is slower than he expected because it is also slower than we expected. Although Mephisto has Shima as his spy, maybe most actions of Illuminati are still not under his control. For example maybe he really has no idea how to deal with the artificial Gehenna gate. And the power in Yukio's eyes, we don't know why Mephisto doesn't take action, but we can not rule out the possibility the reason it simply because the power is something Mephisto can not handle.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Cloelia on April 16, 2017, 04:31:45 PM
Very-very-very crack theory.

1) Satan's real eyes are yellow -> Yukio's current eyes are teal -> (Blue+Yellow=Green (teal is a shade of green)) -> Satan's eyes are overlapping Yukio's = Yukio's real eyes are blue like Rin's.

2) Yukio has poor eyesight -> Yukio's eyes are not his real eyes -> Satan's eyes are overlapping Yukio's = possible explanation of Yukio's poor eyesight.

Real Yukio:

(http://i68.tinypic.com/34ottn6.png)

*drops panties*
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Madow on April 16, 2017, 08:40:02 PM
I have a small crack theory on why Rin is so "weak" (Still beats the shit out of most demons) despite being the direct child of Satan and that's because there's still another seal on the sword. Firstly, Rin's demon form isn't like others, his demon trait stay relatively the same where as someone like Amaimon grows horns, has massive growth to his arms and gains a lizard tail. I think the flames fill in as where things should be, like his horns or tail. Secondly, Satan stated that he was going to break the sword to free his true power, of course this could be different now, most small details change like that. Now thirdly, Lightning's taken a real good interest into his sword, wanting to "tamper" with it, I wouldn't be surprised if he wanted to mess with the way his Heart was sealed and linking to this, Bon's father said if he had any problems with the sword to bring it to him, which could maybe be leading up to a future event where his Heart is unleashed fully.
As for why Mephisto put a secondary seal, I think he was scared of Rin getting too strong too quickly, he might've been a loose cannon and he needed to show the order he could be controlled to let him live. After all, you can't have a pawn that's stronger than you
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Cloelia on April 19, 2017, 08:34:45 PM
Very-very-very crack theory.

1) Satan's real eyes are yellow -> Yukio's current eyes are teal -> (Blue+Yellow=Green (teal is a shade of green)) -> Satan's eyes are overlapping Yukio's = Yukio's real eyes are blue like Rin's.

2) Yukio has poor eyesight -> Yukio's eyes are not his real eyes -> Satan's eyes are overlapping Yukio's = possible explanation of Yukio's poor eyesight.

Real Yukio:

(http://i68.tinypic.com/34ottn6.png)

*drops panties*

Ok, don't mind me. I know that the anime's fillers are absolutely not canon and stuff, but we all do know that what happens in there it's not 100% bullshet. So... hehe, while re-watching em for a list I'm putting up for a new topic, I couldn't avoid to notice this screen:

(http://i68.tinypic.com/oftsad.png)

Yes, it's supposed to be Satan's eye. And it's... yellow!
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Madow on April 19, 2017, 08:45:24 PM
But weren't Satans eyes a more muddy red? Possessed Shirous were at least, maybe it's different for each person he possess but I doubt that
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Kittykat on April 19, 2017, 09:57:48 PM
If you noticed, possessed Yukio mostly used his eyes to attack. I thought it referenced the change in Yukio's eyes in the manga, or another parallel.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: earthforge on April 20, 2017, 05:01:15 AM
1) Satan's real eyes are yellow -> Yukio's current eyes are teal -> (Blue+Yellow=Green (teal is a shade of green)) ->

Erp. Not really. This is a case of the anime taking creative liberties (which they often do with coloring). Satan's eyes are shown in the color page for chapter 24. They are white-blue and have that funky pinwheel shape (http://www.mangapanda.com/ao-no-exorcist/24/2), the same pinwheel shape that Rin gets whenever Rin begins (http://www.mangapanda.com/ao-no-exorcist/9/26) to lose (http://www.mangapanda.com/ao-no-exorcist/13/40) (or is on the verge of losing (http://www.mangapanda.com/ao-no-exorcist/33/11)) his marbles.

So... yeah. Satan's eyes are light blue. Crazy Rin (Koumaken drawn) and Satan's eyes are identical. Sane Rin (Koumaken drawn) and Blue-eye incident Yukio's eyes are identical. Everything else differs.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: chinonamida on April 23, 2017, 10:52:01 PM
I was wondering about the Gregory. We know the one in the center represents Shemihaza (http://mangafox.me/manga/ao_no_exorcist/v16/c069/11.html) and the one on the right represents Azazel (http://mangafox.me/manga/ao_no_exorcist/v19/c087/19.html), then by elimination the one on the left represents Armumahel.

Now, I know the anime gave a male voice to the one in the center, but I was thinking about the people who said Shiemi could be a descendant of Shemihaza and I also remembered that that Gregory is kind of chubby (http://mangafox.me/manga/ao_no_exorcist/v10/c038/30.html)... so maybe the anime is misleading and the Gregory in the center is Shiemi's mother (http://mangafox.me/manga/ao_no_exorcist/v01/c003/16.html).

Not actually believing it though. XD
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Wikkelsoee on April 24, 2017, 07:03:13 AM
^ I think someone actually mentioned that as a real theory in some other thread. I don't know how I feel about it, it seems a bit crack but you never know with manga...
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: earthforge on April 28, 2017, 03:22:51 PM
Amaimon's cousin who likes collecting eyes (http://www.mangapanda.com/ao-no-exorcist/13/23) is actually Samyaza or Armumahel.

(It seemed weird that Amaimon referred to have a cousin when he referred to all the other kings as siblings. But maybe he considers the Sol like cousins? Or maybe Kato didn't intend that line to go anywhere. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: xyzt on April 28, 2017, 04:45:53 PM
Amaimon's cousin who likes collecting eyes (http://www.mangapanda.com/ao-no-exorcist/13/23) is actually Samyaza or Armumahel.

(It seemed weird that Amaimon referred to have a cousin when he referred to all the other kings as siblings. But maybe he considers the Sol like cousins? Or maybe Kato didn't intend that line to go anywhere. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)

But Samyaza and Armumahel are on the pro-human side and both are even confirmed to prefer letting themselves be crystallized than possess another human body. I dont feel they would be the kind of demons who would enjoy collecting human eyes given that they are refusing to even possess humans.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Kittykat on May 01, 2017, 06:49:41 AM
Here's a messed up crack theory. The spy (or a future enemy) is an Azazel clone that looks almost exactly like Fujimoto and will throw a super psychological wrench, affecting Rin, Shura, and Yukio.

And hey, has anyone thought of a theory that twin demons' (if there are any) have one single demon heart shared between the two?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NoireShot on May 02, 2017, 07:32:38 PM
I don't know if this really belongs here or sth
But something that bugged my mind since the start of the recent arc is the topic of the garden amahara. In the anime it came back up along with the conclusion of Neuhaus' storyline as he and his resurrected wife marched of into ...the void or sth
So with Neuhaus coming back to the plot (and being in a weird lab of all things) and Shiemi hopefully soon getting her arc I hope for that topic to come back from the dead as well (...haha)

(It just rlly bugged me that we got to see Neuhaus again shortly as we approach Shiemis soon-to-happen-I-hope-arc. Because Shiemi came in contact with the spiderwife in the anime I speculate these storylines may happen at the same time or will have correlations or whatever bc the anime is loosely based on future events that Kato told the writers about)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on May 03, 2017, 01:31:32 AM
Maybe the Garden of Amahara will be the Emperor of Creation's shrine?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NoireShot on May 11, 2017, 08:29:29 PM
Things that I constantly think about : the fact that the section13-investigation-chapters (85/86) are named after plant-stuff (Heterophylly & Spur shoot). And the fact that some other chapters are named with suspicious names too. Like 87 where Shiemi says she quits her exorcist training is named "Embryo"
Do these titles have significance? And which? What do they mean?

Not really a cracktheory but it sorta points to my garden-amahara-speculation ...maybe ...
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Cherub on May 13, 2017, 06:09:49 AM
[I hate posting in old threads. Do you mind me doing that?]

I once posted this somewhere already, but at one point I made up the theory that Toudou is only eating the demons so he will get (physically) younger in order to look fifteen. Because we wants to be with Yukio forever and totally is no pedo. Because he LURRRRVS him. And one day he'll just confess his love, Yukio will reject him and he'll go batshit and destroy the world.

Mind you, I was half asleep and somewhat drunk when I came up with that.

OML!! I'm dying! That would be hallarious. I won't lie, every time Toudou gets younger I think he gets cuter xD And then I remember how old he is when Renzo was all: "Ah, please don't do that Mr Toudou." (But then again aren't most demons old anways?)

As a huge Yukio fan, I've always wondered about his fascination with Yukio in crack ways and canon wise. Like I get that they have similar life narratives, but sometimes I wonder exactly how Toudou came to be who he is, so it makes me wonder if Yukio will end up being the same. Regardless I do find their interaction in the manga to be really good because of the whole enemy tension thing, so I've got to give this crack theory kudos because I'm sure fans of this rare ship (ahshsjsjekthatmightbeme) have a lot of imagination to how this would play out, lmao.

(I'm currently at a restaurant with the fam for my mums Mother's Day dinner, so excuse any weird grammar of mine).
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Cherub on May 13, 2017, 06:16:05 AM
I honestly just want some crack ideas people might have about a drunk Rin or Yukio. Cause weren't there some posters of them having sake with Mephisto or something??
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: earthforge on May 13, 2017, 03:55:41 PM
^ Yup, there is merch of it, but still no story scenario. NeeNee mentioned wanting Yukio to get drunk so he'd spill the beans about what's happening to him, but that was ages ago and is pretty unlikely now that Yukio is possibly moving to Affably Evil.

As a huge Yukio fan, I've always wondered about his fascination with Yukio in crack ways and canon wise. Like I get that they have similar life narratives, but sometimes I wonder exactly how Toudou came to be who he is, so it makes me wonder if Yukio will end up being the same. Regardless I do find their interaction in the manga to be really good because of the whole enemy tension thing, so I've got to give this crack theory kudos because I'm sure fans of this rare ship (ahshsjsjekthatmightbeme) have a lot of imagination to how this would play out, lmao.

I think that Toudou's manipulation of Yukio will end up diverting Yukio from Toudou's path. Toudou fell into darkness over the course of forty years. He can't change. He's been messed up for too long. Contrast Yukio's descent into darkness, which has been rapid and accelerated by outside forces. Ironically, forcing Yukio to face his personal demons early in life has increased the likelihood that Yukio can overcome them. Even if Yukio does join the dark side, Yukio isn't committed in the same way Toudou is. Yukio can accept himself and change for the better. Plus, Yukio won't truly defeat Toudou by power or strength, but by proving Toudou wrong -- that Yukio can accept his nature *and* care for the world. That your choices, not your personality, make you good or evil.

(Toukio isn't as rare a ship as you might think. There's at least four members on this forum who ship it. :D )
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tandem on May 17, 2017, 06:20:08 AM
As a huge Yukio fan, I've always wondered about his fascination with Yukio in crack ways and canon wise. Like I get that they have similar life narratives, but sometimes I wonder exactly how Toudou came to be who he is, so it makes me wonder if Yukio will end up being the same. Regardless I do find their interaction in the manga to be really good because of the whole enemy tension thing, so I've got to give this crack theory kudos because I'm sure fans of this rare ship (ahshsjsjekthatmightbeme) have a lot of imagination to how this would play out, lmao.

I think that Toudou's manipulation of Yukio will end up diverting Yukio from Toudou's path. Toudou fell into darkness over the course of forty years. He can't change. He's been messed up for too long. Contrast Yukio's descent into darkness, which has been rapid and accelerated by outside forces. Ironically, forcing Yukio to face his personal demons early in life has increased the likelihood that Yukio can overcome them. Even if Yukio does join the dark side, Yukio isn't committed in the same way Toudou is. Yukio can accept himself and change for the better. Plus, Yukio won't truly defeat Toudou by power or strength, but by proving Toudou wrong -- that Yukio can accept his nature *and* care for the world. That your choices, not your personality, make you good or evil.
I think Toudou's fascination with Yukio was due to the apparent similar situation they were in. However, it turns out they are actually not similar at all. Although he didn't say it very clearly, it looks like one of Toudou's motive was that he realizes he will never surpass his father and brother(s) no matter how hard he works as an exorcist. And he did achieve higher accomplishment when he became a demon, so his choice is actually kind of reasonable. Yukio is different. Although he is also following Shiro's career path, as a 15 years old boy he just started the career and doesn't have any reason to believe his accomplishment is limited. Then Toudou tried several ways to attack Yukio's mind and finally one of them seemed has effect : Yukio does envy Rin. However, Yukio does not envy Rin's power or strength (at least at IK arc). It was Rin's personality and the possibility that Shiro loved Rin more. Clearly Yukio can't gain anything if he joins Toudou so he won't. At the end Toudou realized that their problems are different. Then he laughed at Yukio's "both love and hate my brother" and commented it as childish. Toudou even tried to kill Yukio until the blue eye incident happened.

Therefore, in my opinion their interaction is already over at IK arc and Toudou doesn't have any more things to say. Toudou was correct that there is a dark/demon side inside Yukio's mind, but I think it is quite common among human and is not enough for a person to actually go evil. Then Toudou reported Yukio's case to Lucifer, and we have seen Lucifer did find the right way to approach Yukio
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Cherub on May 17, 2017, 08:22:35 AM
As a huge Yukio fan, I've always wondered about his fascination with Yukio in crack ways and canon wise. Like I get that they have similar life narratives, but sometimes I wonder exactly how Toudou came to be who he is, so it makes me wonder if Yukio will end up being the same. Regardless I do find their interaction in the manga to be really good because of the whole enemy tension thing, so I've got to give this crack theory kudos because I'm sure fans of this rare ship (ahshsjsjekthatmightbeme) have a lot of imagination to how this would play out, lmao.

I think that Toudou's manipulation of Yukio will end up diverting Yukio from Toudou's path. Toudou fell into darkness over the course of forty years. He can't change. He's been messed up for too long. Contrast Yukio's descent into darkness, which has been rapid and accelerated by outside forces. Ironically, forcing Yukio to face his personal demons early in life has increased the likelihood that Yukio can overcome them. Even if Yukio does join the dark side, Yukio isn't committed in the same way Toudou is. Yukio can accept himself and change for the better. Plus, Yukio won't truly defeat Toudou by power or strength, but by proving Toudou wrong -- that Yukio can accept his nature *and* care for the world. That your choices, not your personality, make you good or evil.
I think Toudou's fascination with Yukio was due to the apparent similar situation they were in. However, it turns out they are actually not similar at all. Although he didn't say it very clearly, it looks like one of Toudou's motive was that he realizes he will never surpass his father and brother(s) no matter how hard he works as an exorcist. And he did achieve higher accomplishment when he became a demon, so his choice is actually kind of reasonable. Yukio is different. Although he is also following Shiro's career path, as a 15 years old boy he just started the career and doesn't have any reason to believe his accomplishment is limited. Then Toudou tried several ways to attack Yukio's mind and finally one of them seemed has effect : Yukio does envy Rin. However, Yukio does not envy Rin's power or strength (at least at IK arc). It was Rin's personality and the possibility that Shiro loved Rin more. Clearly Yukio can't gain anything if he joins Toudou so he won't. At the end Toudou realized that their problems are different. Then he laughed at Yukio's "both love and hate my brother" and commented it as childish. Toudou even tried to kill Yukio until the blue eye incident happened.

Therefore, in my opinion their interaction is already over at IK arc and Toudou doesn't have any more things to say. Toudou was correct that there is a dark/demon side inside Yukio's mind, but I think it is quite common among human and is not enough for a person to actually go evil. Then Toudou reported Yukio's case to Lucifer, and we have seen Lucifer did find the right way to approach Yukio

Mm. But idk, I still think Toudou is incredibly useful to the plot for comparisons and other stuff. I'm still more or less interested in any future flippant conversation they might have though. I don't think she's done with them yet. I'm especially keen to see how an interaction with Bon might go too.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: earthforge on May 19, 2017, 02:04:24 AM
Many apologies for the massive tl;dr ahead. I've been working on this post intermittently for a few days between a conference and rereading Facets' hilarious AoEx translation blog for the five-billionth time.

I think Toudou's fascination with Yukio was due to the apparent similar situation they were in. However, it turns out they are actually not similar at all. Although he didn't say it very clearly, it looks like one of Toudou's motive was that he realizes he will never surpass his father and brother(s) no matter how hard he works as an exorcist. And he did achieve higher accomplishment when he became a demon, so his choice is actually kind of reasonable. Yukio is different. Although he is also following Shiro's career path, as a 15 years old boy he just started the career and doesn't have any reason to believe his accomplishment is limited. Then Toudou tried several ways to attack Yukio's mind and finally one of them seemed has effect : Yukio does envy Rin. However, Yukio does not envy Rin's power or strength (at least at IK arc). It was Rin's personality and the possibility that Shiro loved Rin more. Clearly Yukio can't gain anything if he joins Toudou so he won't. At the end Toudou realized that their problems are different. Then he laughed at Yukio's "both love and hate my brother" and commented it as childish. Toudou even tried to kill Yukio until the blue eye incident happened.

Therefore, in my opinion their interaction is already over at IK arc and Toudou doesn't have any more things to say. Toudou was correct that there is a dark/demon side inside Yukio's mind, but I think it is quite common among human and is not enough for a person to actually go evil. Then Toudou reported Yukio's case to Lucifer, and we have seen Lucifer did find the right way to approach Yukio

Gonna disagree. Toudou started the fight in Kyoto with Yukio simply to understand Karura's limits. He was playing around and not fighting seriously. That allowed Yukio to get the drop on Toudou with the naiad trap. Toudou was impressed by that but figured Yukio was just a boring ol' human and not worth the effort to manipulate, so he attempted to kill him. Thus when Yukio manifested a demonic ability, Toudou was pleasantly surprised and said he underestimated Yukio -- AKA Yukio was now worth the effort to turn.

After he felt he had a grasp on Karura's abilities after fighting Juuzou et al., Toudou got serious. After restraining the others, he proceeded to tear apart Yukio's self-loathing complex. He pointed out that way of thinking was self-denial and had limits. He was right. Yukio uses self-loathing as a coping strategy to keep himself centered, a daily reminder that his envy and resentment were bad especially in relation to Rin and he shouldn't indulge it. That meant he never learned to deal with the root of his resentment. Toudou then pushed on how Yukio was already well on his way to becoming a demon, linking in his envy of Rin who's also a demon (later was paraphrased by the portrait demon) and emphasizing how being a demon is totes awesome. Note that in all the time they were fighting, this is when when Yukio started to lose his temper. Facets did a really great analysis of what Yukio says here (http://facets-and-rainbows.tumblr.com/post/93931637905/yukio-appreciation-week-day-2-words). Toudou's parting words that Yukio has a "nice look, the face of a demon, that's your true nature" hit Yukio hard because Toudou wasn't only saying that Yukio has a dark side, but implying that Yukio will inevitably become a demon because that's what Yukio is.

Fast-forward to now. Yukio's inability to confide in anyone has led to the suicide training, the failed attempt to get access to Hachiro's powers, and generally poor mental health. He's been acting progressively more demonic and hasn't been catching himself. He's gone from "if I were in your shoes, I would've gone crazy" to "just give me your flames" to quoting what Rin said in the Whale arc about them really being siblings who will never get along. Yukio's given up on his self-loathing and has accepted that he and Rin aren't alike. That's two coping strategies gone. He still is on the TC Order side out of sheer stubbornness (ah, Mr. I-Don't-Need-It), but he's slipping. His laughing in Rin's face feels like a portent of what he will act like as an honest-to-god villain. It makes me worry that Yukio could actually fall into exactly what Toudou said in their first meeting, that accepting his weakness and hatred would feel wonderful. So far the rest of Toudou's prediction has been right.

Toudou kicked the case upstairs to Lucy not because he realized they were different, but because he badly wants Yukio on their side and Yukio is too stubborn to listen to Toudou. Plus, Toudou got the information and did the groundwork that allowed Lucy to tempt Yukio in the way he did. If Toudou did realize they were different, I think his interest in Yukio would be long gone. But instead in his most recent appearance, he said "I like that kid", which was a biiiit more suggestive in the original Japanese. I believe Toudou's interest in Yukio is borne out of his own self-absorption, and that by pushing Yukio to the Illuminati, he is "helping" himself. Toudou doesn't really see Yukio Okumura, but a version of himself. That's Toudou's biggest weakness -- his arrogance.

Yukio has tried to refute Toudou before by insisting he's different. It doesn't work because, well, they are similar. They are both strategic, manipulative, and resentful. They do have critical differences. In particular, Toudou's given up and can't change. Yukio never gives up. His stubbornness is his greatest strength and weakness.

The story between those two isn't finished. Toudou is Yukio's nemesis, just as Lucifer is Mephisto's enemy and Satan is Rin's enemy. Rin intends to physically defeat Satan. Lucifer and Mephisto are waging war on each other through their pawns. Toudou and Yukio's conflict is about "making your enemy see they were wrong to oppose you in the first place" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDpxuWj2A7o&t=32s). Yukio will win eventually, not by physical strength but by proving he is right.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Cloelia on May 22, 2017, 02:14:11 PM
What if Yuri Egin was actually a clone of Egyn (King of Water)?


I gathered a couple thoughts starting from this:

(http://i67.tinypic.com/2iw262v.jpg)

I don't know much about japanese language, but I combined my little knowledge I have of it with some net research and came up with this:

the name "Rin" can be written in different kanji (pardon my ignorance, but this is what I read on Wikipedia): such as 倫, 凛, 臨, 琳, 燐, りん in hiragana or リン in katakana. Probably Kato's choice for our Rin's is just random, but the one she used is this: 燐. Which it should mean: phosphorus. Now, phosphorus is a chemical element. Some of its main applications are related to fire-stuff (fireworks, matches...).

On the other hand, "Yukio" (random note, take a look at this page, I found it quite interesting :) The Meaning of the name Yukio (http://www.first-names-meanings.com/names/name-YUKIO.html)) is written with this kanji: 雪男. And it essentially means: man of the snow. Something snow related... water related.

Ok, Rin and Yukio are two very different brothers. Can we consider "opposite" an even more suitable definition? If that's the case, aren't fire and water two opposite elements for definition as well?

Now, name aspect aside. There's this one thing that suddenly crossed my mind: what if Yuri Egin is actually a clone of the King of Water? For all we know, prolly both Rin and Yukio actually inherited the Satan's blue flames power gene but Rin got it as his dominant one and Yukio as his recessive one. But what if Yukio's dominant gene is related to the possible water element of his mother? I thought of something stupid, such as the water element suppressing the "fire" element of the flames. And this as a possible explanation for why Yukio can't access his Satan's blue flames power gene.

I have a couple considerations about Yukio having some "water related potential" in him. Such as the fact he can summon Naiads (kin of the King of Water) even w/out possessing a Tamer Meister. Also, maybe it got nothing to do with this matter, but if you consider the fact that the Kraken is also kin of the King of Water, I have this lil theory in my mind that the reason it suddenly made his appearance right after the Kyoto adventure may have an explanation. Yukio had just awoke the power in his eyes (or whatever), so he had kinda just awaken his demonic side as well. What if the Kraken "sensed" it (the awakening of the "aura" of the King of Water within Yukio's genes) and reacted to this event?

Also, Lucifer stated that HE has the power to unlock Yukio's real potential. Well, Egyn is part of the anti-human faction just as Lucifer. So he's essentially Lucifer's ally.

What do you think about this?

Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: NeeNee on May 22, 2017, 03:17:53 PM
^ The biggest problem with this, is that Rin and Yukio's names were originally reversed, for.. whatever reason.

http://www.theblueknight.host-ed.me/forum/index.php/topic,117.msg3807.html#msg3807

So she originally named the guy with the fire powers Yukio, then realised it made no sense and changed it... I don't believe she thought all that hard about it, is what I'm saying. :P
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Cloelia on June 02, 2017, 08:32:05 PM
I'm one of those people who somehow (deep, very deep inside) believes that Lightning could potentially be the actual -biological- twins' father. Up till recentely, I could see all sorts of -resemblances- to only Rin (from him been considered a "demon child", to his admission at having poor memorizing skills, to his sleeping pattern, etc. (not to mention the general physical resemblance)) but I always failed to find some real Yukio's ones. This last chapter tough... Well, I was finally able to find at least 3 of them:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Wikkelsoee on June 02, 2017, 09:26:46 PM
^ If that was the case wouldn't Lightning know about Section 13? It seems like Yuri did. He wouldn't have any reason to do as much research as he's doing now.
It would also mean Satan possessed him, something he hasn't mention, like, at all.

Also, his blood type is AB. It's genetically impossible for him to be the father of Yukio (who has O).
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Madow on June 02, 2017, 11:59:11 PM
I never would've thought of him as their father, I believed he could've been their uncle with us not knowing who the twin's father was until a few chapters ago. With Lewin being raised in the US and the elixer taking place in Japan makes it impossible. To me, he'll still be the foster uncle
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: SimpleBliss on June 03, 2017, 03:34:52 AM
I don't know if anyone has mentioned it, but do you think one reason for Lightning's obsessive and almost crazy need to research the Blue Night is because he was a clone, or affected by it somehow? He mentions here that he's lacked emotions since birth:

(click to show/hide)

That might be a result of some experimentation. He always danced around the topic on who he is and how he grew up, right?
Here he says he was "nasty enough to be feared as a demon himself":

(click to show/hide)

This all has to imply something, right?

And here!!!

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

Why did he panic? That's not like him at all. It must be because this information directly concerns him or his family. Most importantly, the file name was for clones of Azazel. We already know Lightning has connections to Azazel, or at least its been hinted at when he actually visited that tornado wind thing. There's definitely a lot going on with Lightning. What do you guys think?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: MetallicArcher on June 03, 2017, 04:42:01 AM
In the context of some of the Demon Kings + Emperors vowing to protect humanity, Lightnings statement that he "loves humans even more than demons" and "will do everything to protect them".... yeah, I do suspect he has some connection the pro-human demon kings.

Maybe he was created as part of some form of experiment to resurrect Azazel's nephilim line within Sec. 13?

It would explain his strong affinity to air demons. And it would make Azazel a sort of ancestor to him giving another meaning to him calling him "gramps".
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: SimpleBliss on June 05, 2017, 04:33:01 AM
Maybe he was created as part of some form of experiment to resurrect Azazel's nephilim line within Sec. 13?

It would explain his strong affinity to air demons. And it would make Azazel a sort of ancestor to him giving another meaning to him calling him "gramps".

Interesting point. I do think him calling Azazel "gramps" was significant, so this makes sense.

On another note, imagine if instead of possession, Yukio becomes a demon eater? Got the idea after seeing artwork of him with the peacock wings on his back, and it reminded me of Karura and Toudou...
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: earthforge on June 05, 2017, 02:57:50 PM
On another note, imagine if instead of possession, Yukio becomes a demon eater? Got the idea after seeing artwork of him with the peacock wings on his back, and it reminded me of Karura and Toudou...

(I have a pet theory that Yukio can't be possessed, but it's only based on circumstantial evidence that we haven't seen him possessed in the main storyline or flashbacks despite his constant emotional instability.)

Betting he'll be either a demon eater or another kind of demon-human hybrid.

There's one reason why I really don't want the former -- demon-eaters consume a demon to gain power. Take a wild guess what Yukio would consume if the plotline trends along his fixation with the blue flames. If Koumaken is broken to expose Rin's demon heart, then... this would make Yukio irredeemably evil IMO. It would be conscious decision to throw away Rin's life.

If he's already a demon-human hybrid, similar but different from Rin, that skips the whole matter.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Kittykat on June 05, 2017, 04:56:53 PM
On another note, imagine if instead of possession, Yukio becomes a demon eater? Got the idea after seeing artwork of him with the peacock wings on his back, and it reminded me of Karura and Toudou...

(I have a pet theory that Yukio can't be possessed, but it's only based on circumstantial evidence that we haven't seen him possessed in the main storyline or flashbacks despite his constant emotional instability.)

Betting he'll be either a demon eater or another kind of demon-human hybrid.

There's one reason why I really don't want the former -- demon-eaters consume a demon to gain power. Take a wild guess what Yukio would consume if the plotline trends along his fixation with the blue flames. If Koumaken is broken to expose Rin's demon heart, then... this would make Yukio irredeemably evil IMO. It would be conscious decision to throw away Rin's life.

If he's already a demon-human hybrid, similar but different from Rin, that skips the whole matter.

I feel that Yukio is not going to realize how far he's fallen until Rin is sacrificed. Meh. This build up is taking too long...
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: earthforge on June 05, 2017, 08:44:30 PM
Crack theory! Lightning was born in Texas but moved to California when he was really young. This explains why he acts more like a stereotypical Californian bum than a Texan bum. I mean, look at those shorts and socks and wacky fashion sense! He'd fit right in Santa Cruz or Los Angeles!  :D
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Kittykat on June 05, 2017, 11:11:01 PM
Crack theory! Lightning was born in Texas but moved to California when he was really young. This explains why he acts more like a stereotypical Californian bum than a Texan bum. I mean, look at those shorts and socks and wacky fashion sense! He'd fit right in Santa Cruz or Los Angeles!  :D

He consumes too many hamburgers to be from Cali. Too fattening. It would have to be like Kale salad or fish tacos. ;p
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: earthforge on June 05, 2017, 11:40:09 PM
Crack theory! Lightning was born in Texas but moved to California when he was really young. This explains why he acts more like a stereotypical Californian bum than a Texan bum. I mean, look at those shorts and socks and wacky fashion sense! He'd fit right in Santa Cruz or Los Angeles!  :D

He consumes too many hamburgers to be from Cali. Too fattening. It would have to be like Kale salad or fish tacos. ;p

"Too fattening"?

Allow me to introduce you to the true food of my people :D

(http://aht.seriouseats.com/images/2009-11-10-In-N-Out-Collage.jpg)
(https://d5bzqyuki558t.cloudfront.net/cms-assets/system/asset_versions/attachments/000/000/289/original/_0000_Burrito.png?1428413134)
(https://s3-media3.fl.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/RPZKqg5VnKZqr0A-dBeMgw/348s.jpg)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Kittykat on June 06, 2017, 01:12:25 AM
^^Haha. I had a feeling you'd mention In-N-Out Burger. Even though he says he was "lying" about his origins to Suguro. I have a feeling he's American. Lack of manners for one. Muahaha.  ;D And his devil may care attitude. Dunno about the hobo part though.  :o  ???
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: chinonamida on June 06, 2017, 04:30:47 AM
That reminds me, before we knew where he came from, I made the bet he was from Australia. Then, when he said he was form Texas, the first thing I thought was "Meh, same thing".
X)

Dunno about the hobo part though.  :o  ???
Given his lack of hygiene and his tendency for trash hoarding, his love for ponchos and fingerless gloves doesn't help his case.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Kittykat on June 06, 2017, 01:44:11 PM

Dunno about the hobo part though.  :o  ???
Given his lack of hygiene and his tendency for trash hoarding, his love for ponchos and fingerless gloves doesn't help his case.

Poor Bon.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Cherub on June 08, 2017, 02:43:30 PM
That reminds me, before we knew where he came from, I made the bet he was from Australia. Then, when he said he was form Texas, the first thing I thought was "Meh, same thing".
X)

It's true, I totally thought he was an Australian as well - the hat reminds me of the typical bougan Aussie stereotype with no care in the world for clothing. But I could totally pass him off on being from one of the American states too, ahaha, I honestly can't see too much of a difference either ヽ( ̄д ̄;)ノ

(Anyone can be a trash hoarder)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Cloelia on June 20, 2017, 06:28:13 PM
I'm one of those people who somehow (deep, very deep inside) believes that Lightning could potentially be the actual -biological- twins' father. Up till recentely, I could see all sorts of -resemblances- to only Rin (from him been considered a "demon child", to his admission at having poor memorizing skills, to his sleeping pattern, etc. (not to mention the general physical resemblance)) but I always failed to find some real Yukio's ones. This last chapter tough... Well, I was finally able to find at least 3 of them:

(click to show/hide)

^ Ops, I forgot to mention this too:

(http://i67.tinypic.com/2ajct4y.jpg)

and this:

(http://i63.tinypic.com/1z6tv2o.jpg)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Taytronics7 on July 24, 2017, 05:50:06 PM
I already have this crack theory on reddit, but I figured I'd post it here too.  ;D

I think it's possible that the reason Shiemi decided not to become an exorcist is that she learned that her father is none other then Lucifer, the King of Light. Here's my evidence: 1. Both have platinum blonde hair, pale skin, and green eyes 2. Her father has never been mentioned, even though we've heard about everyone else's father. 3. It would explain her great tamer powers 4. It could also explain the reason her house is unable to be approached normally, so that Shiemi is protected. 5. Both are known to be sickly. (or in Shiemi's case, used to be) 6. It would explain why she has some sort of light in her eyes in chapter 87. 7. In chapter 89, the tree's lights break, causing the tree to start on fire. Isn't it strange how the lights that break are on the side of the tree that didn't fall onto the ground? Shiemi was also trembling in distress during this time, so she unknowingly broke them due to stress and light is the element that Lucifer controls. It could be a parallel situation to Rin's in the first chapter when he got angry and blew up the oven before his powers awakened. 8. In chapter 82, Shiemi says that she needs to learn how to be a proper human being, and Izumo in response to this calls her a "yokai", which means either a monster or ghost. Could be foreshadowing that the reason she doesn't understand human emotion is because she's not human. 9. In chapter 83, Amaimon calls her "interesting", and proceeds to in this chapter and chapter 84 put pressure on her. Maybe Amaimon knows that she isn't human, and is trying to pressure her and make her snap, like he tried with Rin. Why would he waste his time on a normal human?

I think that Shiemi quit being an exorcist because if she is Lucifer's daughter, she would be the perfect vessel for him and she wouldn't risk the chance of hurting her friends if she were possessed. The clones that were made in Section 13 could not be possessed, no matter how good the bodies were due to the different conditions that they were born in. So Lucifer decided to make his own child naturally. The time of her birth gives weight to this theory. Her birthday is March 6th, so she would have been conceived around early June. The Okumura brothers were born on December 27th, so they would have been conceived in early April. If Lucifer found out that Satan's unborn child was on it's way, he could've figured that the child would be a potential vessel for Satan or that the Order would use it as a weapon against him. Since the conception dates are not even three months apart, perhaps he was inspired by Satan's actions or felt threatened by the existence of Satan's child and made a child of his own to be a vessel.
This is just a crack theory. Whatever her secret is, I'm sure it will be shocking :D
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Cloelia on July 24, 2017, 07:27:06 PM
My pet theory is that the whole Shiemi's "I don't know what love is" is probably related to the fact that the whole Moriyama family is only composed by women and that they are not "born" as usual human beings (I wouldn't be surprised if they are clones or the result of some experiment) and that maybe this is connected to the secret Shiemi's mother told her (darn, why are we into 92 chapters so far and still don't know her name? I can understand we still don't know the Illuminati woman's name (probably cause of plot-wise reasons) but I can't see the reason behind keeping Shiemi's mother's hidden (unless it is for plot-wise reasons too?)). I mean, Shiemi told Rin that she wanted to become an exorcist and by that she meant something along the lines: "I want to be someone strong enough to be considered everyone elses' (in particular Rin) equal. Once I reached that stage, I will feel confident enough to start caring for love matters." At least this is how it sounded to me.

So, when Shiemi's mother prolly told her about how she was born, she understood that she couldn't be a "lover" for Rin. And this was directly connected to the "I want to become an exorcist" promise she made. So giving up on her exorcist quest meant for her to give up working on becoming a "comrade" and later a potentially "love partner" for Rin. I think that if the Moriyama's women were "created" in some way, instead of being born from a regular couple, this would explain Shiemi's lack in understanding how "to love" works and feels like. I don't know how to better explain it, hope the message is still clear.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: WhiteFang on July 29, 2017, 02:22:45 PM
I should like to propose the crackiest of crack theories: since it's very evident that Shiemi is gonna end up with Rin, we need Yukio to join the Illuminati for #plot so that he finds someone there. :P I mean he really can't end up with Izumo/Shura/Paku/any other girl we have been introduced to, so far.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Cloelia on July 29, 2017, 02:51:28 PM
After writing a whole fanfic with the sole aim to give Yukio my own idea of a suitable love interest for him (well, that was the main objective, I'm not gonna deny it), I can't imagine him with any other female character aside my girl (LoL)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: WhiteFang on July 29, 2017, 03:54:06 PM
After writing a whole fanfic with the sole aim to give Yukio my own idea of a suitable love interest for him (well, that was the main objective, I'm not gonna deny it), I can't imagine him with any other female character aside my girl (LoL)

LOL. I think I should go ahead and read that. Meanwhile, I started "Man of Snow" as my own personal YukiShi world because #heartache for Yukio. Btw, pleased to meet you! ^_^ So happy to have someone to discuss Yukio machinations with (he isn't the most popular guy, is he? especially after he lots his marbles).
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: jackolope on July 29, 2017, 05:38:34 PM
This is the most straight theory I've ever read in my life. No offense, of course- but I think going down that route could end up as being very sexist as well. I don't think Yukio needs romance right now (okay, okay I will admit I do have some Yukio ships like the cursed ship  Toukio) but I think he needs a therapist, psychiatrist and some medication. It helped me!

I would, however, want to see some awesome ladies in the Illuminati. I just want to see the other demon eaters and going along with the whole "the Illuminati is gay" joke I want Illuminati lesbians. Us gays stick together and there is no way on Earth someone can convince me Toudou isn't gay.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: WhiteFang on July 29, 2017, 07:05:53 PM
This is the most straight theory I've ever read in my life. No offense, of course- but I think going down that route could end up as being very sexist as well. I don't think Yukio needs romance right now (okay, okay I will admit I do have some Yukio ships like the cursed ship  Toukio) but I think he needs a therapist, psychiatrist and some medication. It helped me!

I would, however, want to see some awesome ladies in the Illuminati. I just want to see the other demon eaters and going along with the whole "the Illuminati is gay" joke I want Illuminati lesbians. Us gays stick together and there is no way on Earth someone can convince me Toudou isn't gay.
:-[ Just to be clear, I didn't mean to be offensive! So, apologies. Like, hence why I qualified it very clearly with it being a totally crack theory (and hence to be taken with a grain of salt). Also, I'm not making any type of assumption about Yukio's sexual orientation until we get some hard evidence, but from what seems to have been shown so far, he *does* seem to like women, at least (and perhaps he internally pines for Shiemi).

With all of that said, I 100% agree that romance is probably the absolute last thing he needs right now. And I'm pretty sure that it's going to be supportive platonic/familial bonds that are going to pull him out of his funk eventually (probably because meds/therapy might not end up getting written into the story; in an IRL scenario they would obviously be part of a wholesome solution).
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: earthforge on July 29, 2017, 08:29:59 PM
Putting it bluntly, Yukio's an asshole. He rejects compassion from others and the idea that he can feel empathy for others. He's deeply screwed up, and even his twin brother can't reach him. Yukio would only be abusive to anyone who tries to help. Just look at how he shoved off Bon and mocked Rin. He can't fathom anyone could care about him, let alone love. If he encounters it, he'd push back hard. Honestly I think he'll even do this to Shiemi just to drag himself through the dirt because  Yukio hates himself more than he cares about Rin or Shiemi. Until he pulls himself out of his extended tantrum, he would be a terrible romantic partner.

I also really dislike "I can fix him" narratives. I love Yukio, but he's got a vicious streak a mile long.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: jackolope on July 29, 2017, 09:06:01 PM
Nah you're cool. Their all straight in this series, except for the villains and the weird characters like Lightning so there's nothing wrong with wanting Yukio to wind up with a girl. However, I think it's too far in the series for enough development to get Yukio into a good, healthy relationship. Especially with a girl from the Illuminati.

So yeah, Yukio definitely just need a therapist (he honestly probably needed one as a little kid.. ) and a psychiatrist cause this dude definitely need some medication or something. Honestly, where the fuck is Izumos therapist as well? They all sorta need something. Yukio needs more than something. Yukio needs to spend time in a psychward.

My favorite crack theory still is that Shiemi will discover shes a lesbian and when Rin finally asks her iut again at the end of the series she'll be like: "I'm gay dude lol."
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: WhiteFang on July 30, 2017, 02:22:05 AM
Putting it bluntly, Yukio's an asshole. He rejects compassion from others and the idea that he can feel empathy for others. He's deeply screwed up, and even his twin brother can't reach him. Yukio would only be abusive to anyone who tries to help. Just look at how he shoved off Bon and mocked Rin. He can't fathom anyone could care about him, let alone love. If he encounters it, he'd push back hard. Honestly I think he'll even do this to Shiemi just to drag himself through the dirt because  Yukio hates himself more than he cares about Rin or Shiemi. Until he pulls himself out of his extended tantrum, he would be a terrible romantic partner.

I also really dislike "I can fix him" narratives. I love Yukio, but he's got a vicious streak a mile long.

I really wouldn't label anyone with deep seated self-deprecation and hatred as an "asshole" though. They're a victim more than anything, if they have, to date, failed to find a single person who is able to understand the fact that their mindset is messed up enough to think of themselves as absolutely unlovable, and then reach out to them accordingly, in a mature way*. Everyone in the series is fifteen though, so you can't really expect that out of them. And Yukio, who in so many ways is the same fifteen year old, has been shouldering more than his fair share for *far too long*. If anyone's an asshole, it's Shiro, for his misparenting, and then Mephisto just adding onto it after his death.

*EDIT: Shura's the only person who gets close to doing this

Also to add on a bit more, now Yukio has cracked. It's just that he has been cracking for a while, and it's a pity that none of the people close to him could really do anything about it, and it just goes to show how little they understand him. Having good intentions and being compassionate in your own way to help someone just sounds good in a textbook. I'm not saying it's wrong, but it seldom really works in the real world with people whose psyches already are too messed up to see these types of things very clearly. Also even as he was totally losing it, Yukio *did* reach out to Rin with regards to how he was bothered about their origins, and Rin in that moment was a total idiot (not wrong, because he was honest, but an idiot nonetheless - it's totally empty for Rin to *ask* Yukio to confide in him, and then basically give him a response which just alienates him further once he does... in a fragile situation like that, you don't need honesty as much as you need words which will provision comfort and understanding).

With that said, lol, I guess I totally misinterpreted the purpose of the thread or something. It was pure unadulterated crack that he should find a romantic partner in the Illuminati. As I said already, I don't think it should actually happen, nor do I believe it will.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: jackolope on July 30, 2017, 02:52:26 AM
O fuck it is a crack thread but everything on this forum turns into "Yukio is a complex character with a lot of flaws who needs help and is a asshole" so don't worry.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: earthforge on July 30, 2017, 06:04:40 AM
WhiteFang, you weren't offensive or off-topic at all. Apologies for being brusque and obnoxious in my post. I kinda wrote that while stuck in traffic.

I somewhat agree with the premise of your post, in that I'd like to see if Yukio connects with others in the Illuminati. Not necessarily romantic, but it'd be interesting to see what the organization is like from the inside when they're not plotting the demise of all living things.

O fuck it is a crack thread but everything on this forum turns into "Yukio is a complex character with a lot of flaws who needs help and is a asshole" so don't worry.

Yep. One day some other character will get development and we'll talk about him/her nonstop. Remember the days when we were theorizing and talking about Renzou nonstop? Good times. Theeeen he turned out to be a double spy, and the discussion evaporated. Poor guy only was worthy of discussion as long as he was a bad guy.

I really wouldn't label anyone with deep seated self-deprecation and hatred as an "asshole" though. They're a victim more than anything, if they have, to date, failed to find a single person who is able to understand the fact that their mindset is messed up enough to think of themselves as absolutely unlovable, and then reach out to them accordingly, in a mature way*.

It can be both? Having crippling self-loathing and being an asshole aren't mutually exclusive. People can have entirely sympathetic circumstances and be worthy of the label "total jerkwad".

(In my experience, most people don't notice when others have major self-hate issues. Multiply this 10x if person seems to be a really amazing and brilliant person on the surface. Multiply 100x if they are good at acting or lying.)

Crack theory: Armumahel is the traitor! Why? Because his shtick is annihilation as the counterpoint to Shemihaza's creation.

...

Yeah, I got literally no other reason for that.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Cloelia on July 30, 2017, 09:06:49 AM
Remember the spy Lightning stated he infiltrated in the Illuminati? He said it was one of his familiars and their name was Jura. What if it's the female Illuminati? The impression I got is that she joined the Order only recently. I don't have any proof but at the time Gedoin approached Izumo when she was 11 yrs old, the female Illuminati wasn't there. Obviously, it can mean nothing, still... And I can't remember where (gotta read the manga again) but I think Lightning addressed the spy as a "she" at some point while talking to someone (prolly Angel).
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Cloelia on August 04, 2017, 05:10:12 PM
^ Sorry for double posting.

While I was running my Viz's translations marathon I ended up finding out I was wrong about this part.
In the translations I used to read before, I thought Lighting was talking about the spy he infiltrated in the Illuminati and assumed "Jura" was the name of said spy. However, turns out it was a typo and he was talking about Shura. So scratch what I said in the last post.

(http://i65.tinypic.com/2yvl649.jpg)

I still wonder what happened to that spy, tough.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: WhiteFang on August 04, 2017, 07:00:19 PM
WhiteFang, you weren't offensive or off-topic at all. Apologies for being brusque and obnoxious in my post. I kinda wrote that while stuck in traffic.

I somewhat agree with the premise of your post, in that I'd like to see if Yukio connects with others in the Illuminati. Not necessarily romantic, but it'd be interesting to see what the organization is like from the inside when they're not plotting the demise of all living things.

O fuck it is a crack thread but everything on this forum turns into "Yukio is a complex character with a lot of flaws who needs help and is a asshole" so don't worry.

Yep. One day some other character will get development and we'll talk about him/her nonstop. Remember the days when we were theorizing and talking about Renzou nonstop? Good times. Theeeen he turned out to be a double spy, and the discussion evaporated. Poor guy only was worthy of discussion as long as he was a bad guy.

It can be both? Having crippling self-loathing and being an asshole aren't mutually exclusive. People can have entirely sympathetic circumstances and be worthy of the label "total jerkwad".

(In my experience, most people don't notice when others have major self-hate issues. Multiply this 10x if person seems to be a really amazing and brilliant person on the surface. Multiply 100x if they are good at acting or lying.)

No worries at all! I'm sorry if I came off as offended or some such -- I wasn't. Just got a bit puzzled. xD I actually appreciate discussions about Yukio, so it's always good to indulge. I agree with the point you make there that being a jerk and having sympathetic circumstances isn't mutually exclusive. I wouldn't say though that Yukio fits the bill of someone vicious (especially to his friends) as he does of someone who's become seriously mentally ill, which has impaired his decision-making. I don't think a healthy Yukio would ever dream of hurting his loved ones. As for him spiraling into this horrible hole to begin with... that's where I feel it isn't entirely his fault, and therefore he cannot be unilaterally blamed for what he is doing. Of course we can come to the whole, "no matter your past, it doesn't justify your actions in the present" -- but then I would say he's not yet actually harmed someone yet, and I feel, well... he shouldn't.

Of course the latest spoiler might make me eat my words so. :P :D xD
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: SimpleBliss on August 05, 2017, 04:47:42 AM
HEY GUYS, I was combing through Cloelia's in-depth chapter analyses, and in chapter 4, this conversation happens:

Mephisto asks Amaimon whether or not he has an answer from Father (i.e. Satan), and Amaimon says that he "will accept your proposal." Mephisto then says something interesting: "Tell Father from me...'I am raising our youngest brother carefully under my wing. Everything is going splendidly.'""

What if the youngest brother is YUKIO, and not Rin???? After all, Yukio is YOUNGER than Rin. I found it interesting that Mephisto used the words "youngest brother." And what could the proposal be, except something involving Satan's involvement with this "youngest brother"?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Cloelia on August 05, 2017, 01:11:49 PM
HEY GUYS, I was combing through Cloelia's in-depth chapter analyses, and in chapter 4, this conversation happens:

Mephisto asks Amaimon whether or not he has an answer from Father (i.e. Satan), and Amaimon says that he "will accept your proposal." Mephisto then says something interesting: "Tell Father from me...'I am raising our youngest brother carefully under my wing. Everything is going splendidly.'""

What if the youngest brother is YUKIO, and not Rin???? After all, Yukio is YOUNGER than Rin. I found it interesting that Mephisto used the words "youngest brother." And what could the proposal be, except something involving Satan's involvement with this "youngest brother"?

Thank you for taking a look at that analysis (which I'm planning to update soon with the latest two chapters). But I'm pretty certain Mephisto was talking about Rin, so he's the "youngest" brother. The translations I took as a reference while writing that analysis were from a fan scanlation site, but Viz's translations (which I consider the official ones) are pretty clear: "I've taken our youngest brother under my wing." (https://mangalife.us/read-online/Ao-No-Exorcist-chapter-4-page-47.html) He's clearly talking about Rin as he's the one Mephisto has -just- welcomed into the Academy. While Yukio's been there for 7 years.

---

Now, since Kato-sama is showing us that she hasn't forgot about her old chapters (she used the chapter 44's flashback as a starting point for the events in chapter 93), I have a feeling that she's planning to keep walking this path and put to use other old events which were left "pending". Like, I wasn't expecting Shiemi of all people to be the "main support character" of this chapter. So I thought about letting my imagination run wild and try to guess who would most likely be the next one. And I thought about Shura.

At the end of the Aomori arc there is this one line from Shura: "I guess it doesn't matter YET." (https://mangalife.us/read-online/Ao-No-Exorcist-chapter-80-page-25.html) which imo it's a foreshadow to the fact she's eventually gonna bring the topic out again.

During the fight against Hachiro there's this big shady plan Yukio plays out where he lets his real intention (him wanting to be stronger than Rin) out in this hella smart way where he knows that, even if he said something like that, once his objective (get Hachiro to lower his guard) was reached, Shura and Rin will end up thinking "Oh, so all he said was just part of a plan." and forget about it. Which Rin will do, while Shura will still retain some doubts... "Sorry Rin, but I want to be stronger."

"What if he really meant it?" It's what I think Shura thought to herself. Notice when (https://mangalife.us/read-online/Ao-No-Exorcist-chapter-77-page-17.html) she actually STARTS (https://mangalife.us/read-online/Ao-No-Exorcist-chapter-77-page-18.html) wondering if Yukio does really have a plan.

Now, back to the latest chapters. After the Cyclop fight, I'm not pretty sure but what I get is that Shura leaves the area to Lightning's hands and goes to assist another squad (https://mangalife.us/read-online/Ao-No-Exorcist-chapter-92-page-18.html). Pls, correct me if I got it wrong. After Yukio's second fight against the ghost/shadow/whatever demons, he is ordered to go back home by that exorcist cause he's still a kid/cause of his arm/cause he needs to rest/cause it looked like he was fighting in a too much dangerous way, etc etc. But not cause the mission itself was over.

For all we know, by the end of chapter 93 Shura may still be busy with -her- mission (if she had one). We know she lives in the twins dorm, so if she was already back, she would've been having breakfast with Rin and co, I guess.

Now, what if chapter 94 begins with Shura who's heading home after completing her mission and... walks by Yukio and Shima's location? And what if, the moment she does, she happens to overhear the two boys talking about being weak/wanting to be strong (Yukio) and possibility to reach that objective by joining a -certain- organization (Shima) stuff? Now, this could bring confirmation to Shura's doubts.

She may choose to not show up and simply watch from a distance or not. But sure thing is, if as I theorized, Rin shows up the moment Yukio's about to walk away and go to the Illuminati, there's sure gonna be this hella huge confrontation. I doubt whatever state Yukio is reduced in by now, he will actually declare "I'm doing this because I want to be stronger than you." So, after Yukio takes his leave, Rin will be left with tons of questions.

All Suguro and Shiemi know even if they combined the infos they gathered so far is: Yukio is looking for the truth about his origins and he's going crazy cause of this. But, what about the reason behind it? They don't have a single clue (come on, how could they suspect the smart/strong/talented Yukio they know could actually have inferiority complexes toward his brother?) The only one with an answer at this point would be: Shura.

Rin, Suguro and Shiemi after Yukio is gone: "Why?"
Shura: "I think I know."
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: BennieNC on August 13, 2017, 09:09:45 PM
Hiya,

 So I'm rereading the entire manga (and having lots of fun :D) and a couple of things have come up here and there. For example the fact that Neuhaus's left eye was possed and Satan used him to kill his entire family. Which makes me think Neuhauss is an Assylum kid (how else would he be able to hoste Satan in his body long enough)

Today I came across this: http://mangalife.us/read-online/Ao-No-Exorcist-chapter-41.5-page-39.html (http://mangalife.us/read-online/Ao-No-Exorcist-chapter-41.5-page-39.html)
These are little extra trivia facts Kato puts in the manga's (she also showed Kuro's human form there)
So Amaimon says he has been using his body for anout 1000 years. Is this a mistake by the author? Assylum has not been making enhanced clones for 1000 years. The technology was just not on point for 1000 years.
In the chapter where Mephisto takes Rin to Gehenna, he states he's been using the name Mephisto Pheles for 200 years. Something is up with this timeline.
Ican't wait for an official timeline. I'm really confused.
Also fun fact. Angel is 30 in the manga right now (according to his profile in the manga) which means he was 14 when the blue night happened and he lost his memory.
I wonder who took him under their wing when assylum got shut down.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Kittykat on August 14, 2017, 04:31:13 AM
Hiya,

 So I'm rereading the entire manga (and having lots of fun :D) and a couple of things have come up here and there. For example the fact that Neuhaus's left eye was possed and Satan used him to kill his entire family. Which makes me think Neuhauss is an Assylum kid (how else would he be able to hoste Satan in his body long enough)

Today I came across this: http://mangalife.us/read-online/Ao-No-Exorcist-chapter-41.5-page-39.html (http://mangalife.us/read-online/Ao-No-Exorcist-chapter-41.5-page-39.html)
These are little extra trivia facts Kato puts in the manga's (she also showed Kuro's human form there)
So Amaimon says he has been using his body for anout 1000 years. Is this a mistake by the author? Assylum has not been making enhanced clones for 1000 years. The technology was just not on point for 1000 years.
In the chapter where Mephisto takes Rin to Gehenna, he states he's been using the name Mephisto Pheles for 200 years. Something is up with this timeline.
Ican't wait for an official timeline. I'm really confused.
Also fun fact. Angel is 30 in the manga right now (according to his profile in the manga) which means he was 14 when the blue night happened and he lost his memory.
I wonder who took him under their wing when assylum got shut down.

I think Amaimon's body was destroyed when he fought Rin in the forest. Then Rin fought Amaimon in Gehenna, and he was shown that his success wasn't really a success. Amaimon is limited until he brings his heart out. When Amaimon came to class, he was in the new body. It took him time to get situated as well as "cooled down" from his last meet with Rin. At least this is an assumption since it wasn't clarified or wasn't important enough to be answered.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: facets-and-rainbows on August 14, 2017, 05:10:30 AM
Hiya,

 So I'm rereading the entire manga (and having lots of fun :D) and a couple of things have come up here and there. For example the fact that Neuhaus's left eye was possed and Satan used him to kill his entire family. Which makes me think Neuhauss is an Assylum kid (how else would he be able to hoste Satan in his body long enough)

Today I came across this: http://mangalife.us/read-online/Ao-No-Exorcist-chapter-41.5-page-39.html (http://mangalife.us/read-online/Ao-No-Exorcist-chapter-41.5-page-39.html)
These are little extra trivia facts Kato puts in the manga's (she also showed Kuro's human form there)
So Amaimon says he has been using his body for anout 1000 years. Is this a mistake by the author? Assylum has not been making enhanced clones for 1000 years. The technology was just not on point for 1000 years.
In the chapter where Mephisto takes Rin to Gehenna, he states he's been using the name Mephisto Pheles for 200 years. Something is up with this timeline.
Ican't wait for an official timeline. I'm really confused.
Also fun fact. Angel is 30 in the manga right now (according to his profile in the manga) which means he was 14 when the blue night happened and he lost his memory.
I wonder who took him under their wing when assylum got shut down.

I think Amaimon's body was destroyed when he fought Rin in the forest. Then Rin fought Amaimon in Gehenna, and he was shown that his success wasn't really a success. Amaimon is limited until he brings his heart out. When Amaimon came to class, he was in the new body. It took him time to get situated as well as "cooled down" from his last meet with Rin. At least this is an assumption since it wasn't clarified or wasn't important enough to be answered.

His body looked really damaged in Mephisto's flashback, and the way Mephisto told the story it sounded like Amaimon got the new body before the Blue Night. I'm guessing Amaimon just, like, doesn't realize that clones are different people or something.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: earthforge on August 23, 2017, 09:02:05 PM
Filing this under crack theories because it could all be disproven within the next five chapters.

My current working explanation for the blue eyes is that Satan has always observed Assiah through Yukio's eyes, explaining Yukio's ability to see demons from day 1.

I have no idea the mechanism, but could this be more common than we know? What if the spy in the Order who took the Section 13 information has something similar? I'm suspicious of Arthur because he conveniently had no memories of the Blue Night or before. I'm almost certain he is a Lucifer clone, given Lightning's shocked reaction when he flipped through the Lucifer clone index. And if it's like what I think is happening with Yukio, then Angel would be just as unaware as Yukio has been.

Theory: Either Lucifer or one of his faction was able to learn and take the information via one of the Order higher-ups (Drac, Angel, or one of the Grigori or Arc Knights) via the same mechanism that allows Satan to partially manifest and shield Yukio.

Satan only has shown up to prevent Yukio from dying. Either he doesn't mind his tool getting mangled and broken, or it's difficult for Satan to do this. Or maybe both. Maybe the less powerful demons can show up at any time and knock out / partially control the human, effectively bypass the Morinas? Satan's caused blackouts before, like ch. 73.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Kittykat on August 23, 2017, 10:48:35 PM
Filing this under crack theories because it could all be disproven within the next five chapters.

My current working explanation for the blue eyes is that Satan has always observed Assiah through Yukio's eyes, explaining Yukio's ability to see demons from day 1.

I have no idea the mechanism, but could this be more common than we know? What if the spy in the Order who took the Section 13 information has something similar? I'm suspicious of Arthur because he conveniently had no memories of the Blue Night or before. I'm almost certain he is a Lucifer clone, given Lightning's shocked reaction when he flipped through the Lucifer clone index. And if it's like what I think is happening with Yukio, then Angel would be just as unaware as Yukio has been.

Theory: Either Lucifer or one of his faction was able to learn and take the information via one of the Order higher-ups (Drac, Angel, or one of the Grigori or Arc Knights) via the same mechanism that allows Satan to partially manifest and shield Yukio.

Satan only has shown up to prevent Yukio from dying. Either he doesn't mind his tool getting mangled and broken, or it's difficult for Satan to do this. Or maybe both. Maybe the less powerful demons can show up at any time and knock out / partially control the human, effectively bypass the Morinas? Satan's caused blackouts before, like ch. 73.

I actually think that Yukio's blackouts are the same as Rin's blackouts that he experienced at a younger age. I think he's equally ignorant of what Rin went through when he was younger as Rin is ignorant now. Yukio is essentially catching up.

I don't think that Satan was in Yukio this whole time. Probably as soon as Toudou began twisting his thoughts a small crack in his heart formed, and Yukio began to dwell and obsess. The weakness in his heart has been fully realized, and so that allowed Satan to come all the way through in the same way Fujimoto was possessed. But what will be the point that Satan fully possesses Yukio? Probably after Rin has been "sacrificed."

I do think it's weird that Arthur forgot everything, and I wonder what's going to be the impetus for him to remember. Why is he so black and white towards everything if the Order is chock full of demonic influences?

Lucifer knows something of the power. He said as much to Yukio, but what and what's his motive if he was already going to provide a vessel for Satan through the use of the Immortal type demons? Also, which demon kings had successful clones? All of them or only the ones we've seen? Is the body Lucifer is in a clone or a normal human that they are trying to supplement with elixir?

Gah, so many questions.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: SimpleBliss on August 24, 2017, 02:52:33 AM

I don't think that Satan was in Yukio this whole time. Probably as soon as Toudou began twisting his thoughts a small crack in his heart formed, and Yukio began to dwell and obsess. The weakness in his heart has been fully realized, and so that allowed Satan to come all the way through in the same way Fujimoto was possessed. But what will be the point that Satan fully possesses Yukio? Probably after Rin has been "sacrificed."


Were you referring to the anime sacrifice? Because that's a scarily good indicator. Meaning, we can probably say with confidence that Satan will "fully possess Yukio when Rin is sacrificed." Right now, we just don't know what sacrifice could mean or in what context, but it's extremely likely.

Since I'm here, I might as well say this too: What if Lucifer is lying to Yukio? We already know that Grandpa Egin said a lot of things to Yukio in the anime that sounded legitimate, but half of it turned out to be pure shit anyways. Why didn't Lucifer know anything about Yukio before Toudou noticed something? If Lucifer supposedly knew some "secret" about Yukio all along, why did he seem surprised? Why is he in no hurry to recruit Yukio, or is proceeding with his plans as if Yukio wasn't a factor all along? Maybe it's because Lucifer knows jack shit. Either that, or he doesn't know enough to make anything of it. All he knows is that there's -some- strange power behind his eyes, since Toudou noticed it and he saw some of it himself. We can even call shit on the whole "secret behind his birth" because as far as we know, the entire thing was kept a secret, even from the Order. Sure, Satan incarnated and everyone knew about that. But the birth? That would have happened 9 months later. It's very likely that neither the Illuminati nor the Order knew about it. Really, the only person who knows is Satan, but he's clearly working alone. He's the true master of this game.

Anyways, all I'm saying is that we can't actually trust that Lucifer has anything to tell Yukio. Ironically, the only person Yukio can trust is Satan; the only side he can join is Satan's; the only thing he can live for is Satan. Maybe Yukio will defect not to the Order, not to the Illuminati, but to Satan. After all, it's go big or go home, right?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Kittykat on August 24, 2017, 04:49:41 AM

I don't think that Satan was in Yukio this whole time. Probably as soon as Toudou began twisting his thoughts a small crack in his heart formed, and Yukio began to dwell and obsess. The weakness in his heart has been fully realized, and so that allowed Satan to come all the way through in the same way Fujimoto was possessed. But what will be the point that Satan fully possesses Yukio? Probably after Rin has been "sacrificed."


Were you referring to the anime sacrifice? Because that's a scarily good indicator. Meaning, we can probably say with confidence that Satan will "fully possess Yukio when Rin is sacrificed." Right now, we just don't know what sacrifice could mean or in what context, but it's extremely likely.


That is what I think. I want to say that it'll have something to do with Kurikara cracking or breaking. It has been mentioned in the manga, and it was a plot point in the anime. Mephisto said it would kill him, but Satan wanted to break it to "free" him. If not, then Yukio shoots him like in the anime.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Cloelia on August 24, 2017, 01:40:17 PM
I don't think that Satan was in Yukio this whole time. Probably as soon as Toudou began twisting his thoughts a small crack in his heart formed, and Yukio began to dwell and obsess. The weakness in his heart has been fully realized, and so that allowed Satan to come all the way through in the same way Fujimoto was possessed. But what will be the point that Satan fully possesses Yukio? Probably after Rin has been "sacrificed."

I do think something else. I think that if there was a "crack" moment in Yukio it started from around here (http://kissmanga.com/Manga/Ao-no-Exorcist/Chapter-027?id=283398#38). Notice how this is connected to Yukio remembering about Shura's words (http://kissmanga.com/Manga/Ao-no-Exorcist/Chapter-027?id=283398#39). Let's take into consideration Todo's statement (http://kissmanga.com/Manga/Ao-no-Exorcist/Chapter-032?id=283436#33). "Hating yourself is the first step to becoming a demon". Yukio verbally admitted he hates himself later, during his fight with Todo, but I'm sure it was already thinking it back when he was remembering Shura's words.

Someone labeled Yukio's hearing noises like they were coming from very far as PTSD. But I think after chapter 93 happenings it's safe to assume that was not -completely- the case. Oc, I do think Yukio was experiencing a PTSD symptom TOO. However, we now have proof that Satan (?)'s -possession- is not only about his eyes, but even his own mind (his memories, prolly his senses, and so on). So, like, mind CAN -control- senses. And I think the moment Yukio started hearing those noises as they were coming from very far may be considered a first sign of Satan (?) trying for the first time to "establish" that connection with Yukio, taking advantage of the very first moment he started to run an in-deep analysis of himself resulting in his realization about his hate toward himself. And the moment Yukio realized that, as Todo said, the first step was taken.

Either this or is this: "The most important thing is to not suppress one's true feelings." (http://kissmanga.com/Manga/Ao-no-Exorcist/Chapter-015?id=283322#33) and "Cause demons will take advantage of that pent-up anger and stress" (http://kissmanga.com/Manga/Ao-no-Exorcist/Chapter-015?id=283322#34). In this case, Yukio's hearing noises as they were coming from far away was INDEED the first symptom of a "blooming" PTSD and, as a result, Satan (?) took advantage of this to try to establish for the first time a connection with him.

Huh, I don't like how I explained this but if someone got what I mean, pls, back me up. And if I messed, pls correct me.

Lucifer knows something of the power. He said as much to Yukio, but what and what's his motive if he was already going to provide a vessel for Satan through the use of the Immortal type demons?

This is why it bothers me to read people stating "Lucifer is gonna use Yukio to make it a Satan's vessel", "Yukio will be Satan's vessel", etc., I think people are so stuck in the anime they only consider that and forget about the manga.

I hardly see people bringing this up, so I'm gonna put all the points together here. What the manga suggested so far, is that Lucifer is trying to revive Satan by creating a body using the Immortal type demons as materials. A body capable to be possessed by the strongest of the demons, so indeed it needs to be a strong one and with a high regenerative factor so to not decay and last.

What I think Lucifer's plan consists of are these two steps:

- gather Immortal type demons to have his scientists create a body;
- use the "chosen ones"'s DNA to make it capable to sustain Satan's possession.

Why? It's simple. The "chosen ones" (like Todo) are humans who have shown good capability to force demons to possess them, sustain them and eventually control them to the point they literally become one with them. "Chosen ones" is quite a good way to define them, imo. We know that some humans tried to force demons to possess them but failed (unknown woman/Impure Princess. Also, notice that when Angel asked her why she did revive the Impure Princess, she literally said "I became one with the Impure Princess"). Others, like Todo, succeed. So these humans are the "chosen ones".

All we know is that the "chosen ones" are somehow "needed" -during the process- to prepare Satan's body. But not TO PREPARE the body itself. Lucifer said: "It may become necessary to prepare Father's body with the materials we already have (and I'm quite positive he's referring to the large amount of Immortal type demons in front of him)... That is WHEN I need you chosen ones." So the "chosen ones" serve another purpose but we still don't know which. So my guess is that since their DNA proved to be capable to force a demon to possess their body (http://kissmanga.com/Manga/Ao-no-Exorcist/Chapter-025?id=283388#27), sustain it (http://kissmanga.com/Manga/Ao-no-Exorcist/Chapter-025?id=283388#28) and eventually control it (http://kissmanga.com/Manga/Ao-no-Exorcist/Chapter-080?id=299779#28), Lucifer plans to use their DNA or something like that to "implant" it in the body and make it capable to sustain Satan's possession.

Now, considering all this, what I think it's pretty clear is that Lucifer is absolutely NOT after Yukio BECAUSE he wants to use him as VESSEL material. He's after the Immortal type demons for that.

But I'm guessing Lucifer considers Yukio nothing different than another "chosen one" and that he wants to "save him" for that purpose, the same as the chosen ones'. That's why he has no rush over getting Yukio by the Illuminati side and none of his men try to put any pressure on him. After all, Satan's not gonna be revived till around October (http://kissmanga.com/Manga/Ao-no-Exorcist/Chapter-049?id=283565#17), and we're in January. Oc, I think this is ONE reason but there may be more.

There's also simply no rush because Yukio is NOT essential to PREPARE Satan's vessel at all. He's not NEEDED at all for THAT purpose. He MAY be needed as a "chosen one" though, so he's gonna be needed later, since the body itself is still not ready (for all we know, they may still be looking for other Immortals type demons behind the scenes, so, if that's the case, then they're still at the "gathering ingredients" stage).

The reason I think Yukio is another "chosen one". Well, simple. He's a human whose "body" (or precisely, his eyes) -seems- to be capable to sustain "possession" from a demon (Satan (?)). If he's capable to sustain possession, it prolly means that he was -forced- in the past to be possessed by that demon (that's why I think his eyes/his eye were/was "transplanted" into him somehow). Demon eaters ate demons. Yukio most likely didn't "eat" a demon, so it's possible someone "forced" it into him some other way.

What I think Yukio's lacking is the last step: to "control" the demon. Yeah, he can get it to manifest while putting his life in danger. What if the reason the demon shows up only this way is because it CAN'T manifest "freely" at any time? My idea, unless there's another reason behind the demon showing itself ONLY to protect Yukio from death, is that Yukio lacks something like a "training". I also think this because I find it weird that the demon tried to speak to Yukio ONLY now. The way it started too. That first small speech bubble with an unreadable font. The first impression I got is that the demon was "testing" for the first time its ability to communicate with Yukio, and it became clearer and clearer as Yukio slowly fell into despair.

Now, this is totally crack theory, but I think what Lucifer is offering Yukio, that "potential", could be something related to Yukio's capability to "control" the demon. Maybe if Yukio knew about HOW he got his eyes/eye when he was a newborn and WHOSE eyes/eye are those/that ("the secret behind your birth") that could help him "control" them and the demon "inside" them. Don't know how, but I think there's a connection.

Why didn't Lucifer know anything about Yukio before Toudou noticed something? If Lucifer supposedly knew some "secret" about Yukio all along, why did he seem surprised? Why is he in no hurry to recruit Yukio, or is proceeding with his plans as if Yukio wasn't a factor all along? Maybe it's because Lucifer knows jack shit. Either that, or he doesn't know enough to make anything of it. All he knows is that there's -some- strange power behind his eyes, since Toudou noticed it and he saw some of it himself. We can even call shit on the whole "secret behind his birth" because as far as we know, the entire thing was kept a secret, even from the Order.

I have this theory that I mentioned somewhere else too that Yukio was experimented on when he was a newborn. Either to be transplanted someone else's eyes or for some other reason. The moment the twins were born, Rin was half-demon. Ok, but Yukio was the son of a demon who didn't inherit the power. He may somehow have inherited the recessive gene of that power. In any case, I can see the S13 scientists considering him good experimental material. If that's the case, I have the feeling they tried to do something to Yukio but, at first, they didn't get any result. So they thought the experiment was a failure and the question ended there. 15 years later, the results are starting to manifest. Todo clearly knows something about it and prolly he knew that the experiment was a failure too. But, surprisingly, Yukio's eyes/eye awoke and he recognized them/it.

Lucifer prolly knew something about an experiment on Yukio but not the details. So he had to see Yukio in person to verify what kinda experiment could be. And from here on I'm lost... So, hehe. Before I venture any further I stop here! I have too many ideas but can't find a way to express them properly/connect them. *sigh* We need more infos!
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Kittykat on August 24, 2017, 06:13:28 PM
I think the chosen ones are just the enhanced humans or clone/clone descendants. Eugenics sort of thing. Mephisto mentioned the clones, and then enhanced humans. Said most people involved died that day(the Blue Night), but we don't know who that it includes. S13 people or the experiments? Shiro is like fifty years old when he dies. Two generations worth there. We don't know how much more were created and for how long before Shiro did they start.

Edit: If we propose Shiemi's family as a clone family, that's three generations.

What if the "chosen ones" can successfully eat their King type kin? Is that why Toudou specifically went for Karura? He said, "I caused all this for one purpose, and that's to get you[Karura]."

As for Yukio's eyes, I don't think he was experimented on. S13 was shut down after the Blue Night, and everyone was contracted to not speak about it. That would probably include doing the experiments over again. I think Shiro chose some of them to help raise the kids because chances are he knew the kinder doctors from S13 that know how to raise kids or something along those lines.

I think his eyes are an outlet of his power. Just how it manifests. [Think like cyclops in XMen. Pew. Laser beams]. Maybe he'll have somehing cool with it like other anime characters with eye powers. If you want to use the anime, Satan-Yukio attacks with his eyes. Pew. Blue fireballs wherever he looks. Pew.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: earthforge on August 25, 2017, 05:15:14 AM
I'm pretty sure "the chosen ones" are just demon eaters. Lucifer explained that they were strengthened by the elixir experiments.

Lucifer said that they will have to use the "chosen ones" if they have to prepare Satan's body using only the demons they have, because the Order was keeping them from getting more. Given Toudou's haunted expression and his statement "that's why you keep us alive", I'm pretty sure that means that the demon eaters will get used as backup raw materials.

I agree that Lucifer's interest in Yukio has nothing to do with using him to prepare Satan's vessel. If it was, they would've stuffed him in a potato sack and carried him over by now.

Bliss is right, Lucifer had to be notified that Yukio wasn't 100% human, and only after the blue eye incident did Lucifer say he could explain the story of the hidden birth. Tells me that Lucifer didn't observe the hidden birth but could figure out what happened solely based on the blue eye incident. That'd only be the case if Yukio is not unique and that there are other cases of partial incarnations that Lucifer knew about, allowing him to get a pretty good idea of Yukio's origin and abilities without seeing them.

Lucifer offered Yukio the truth because he wanted to "save" him. I assumed "saved" from the Order, because Lucifer believed that the moment Yukio's secret got out, he wasn't protected and would be imprisoned or killed.

If the voice really is Satan's, than I actually believe Lucifer's concern because the Order does not fuck around when Satan is involved. Rin only has the flames of Satan and otherwise has control of his own mind. Yukio's case is much more ambiguous.

S13 was shut down after the Blue Night, and everyone was contracted to not speak about it.

Don't forget Samael is the King of Time. Mephisto could've done all kinds of timeline shenanigans when Satan incarnated and the Okumura twins were born.

If you want to use the anime, Satan-Yukio attacks with his eyes. Pew. Blue fireballs wherever he looks. Pew.

What. Really? You're kidding, right? I would check on my own, but I'd sooner eat a can of cat food than rewatch the anime-original ending again.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Kittykat on August 25, 2017, 08:14:19 AM
Quote
Quote from: Kittykat on August 24, 2017, 06:13:28 PM
If you want to use the anime, Satan-Yukio attacks with his eyes. Pew. Blue fireballs wherever he looks. Pew.

What. Really? You're kidding, right? I would check on my own, but I'd sooner eat a can of cat food than rewatch the anime-original ending again.

An example is when he roasts Tsubaki-sensei at about 5:50 on ep 24. Right before Kamiki summons her sake to douse him. Also when he fights Shura at about 14:25. Sorry. Using netflix.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tandem on August 27, 2017, 04:42:05 AM
Yukio verbally admitted he hates himself later, during his fight with Todo, but I'm sure it was already thinking it back when he was remembering Shura's words.
taking advantage of the very first moment he started to run an in-deep analysis of himself resulting in his realization about his hate toward himself. And the moment Yukio realized that, as Todo said, the first step was taken.
I don't believe Yukio just started to analyze himself during the fight when he is simultaneously setting up the water spirit circle (and trying to deceive Toudou). That's not a time to do philosophical reasoning. I think a long time ago Yukio had analyzed that and keeps it as his little secret in mind. Probably never told anyone besides Toudou.

I'm guessing Lucifer considers Yukio nothing different than another "chosen one" and that he wants to "save him" for that purpose, the same as the chosen ones'. That's why he has no rush over getting Yukio by the Illuminati side and none of his men try to put any pressure on him. After all, Satan's not gonna be revived till around October (http://kissmanga.com/Manga/Ao-no-Exorcist/Chapter-049?id=283565#17), and we're in January. Oc, I think this is ONE reason but there may be more.

There's also simply no rush because Yukio is NOT essential to PREPARE Satan's vessel at all. He's not NEEDED at all for THAT purpose. He MAY be needed as a "chosen one" though, so he's gonna be needed later, since the body itself is still not ready (for all we know, they may still be looking for other Immortals type demons behind the scenes, so, if that's the case, then they're still at the "gathering ingredients" stage).
It looks like Yukio is not indispensable in Lucifer's plan. He is good to have, but it's OK without him. So I also don't think he is related to Satan's revival. Although the demon eaters are not really indispensable either, but more like a plan B in case they can't gather enough materials

Now, this is totally crack theory, but I think what Lucifer is offering Yukio, that "potential", could be something related to Yukio's capability to "control" the demon.
That's not crack at all. Lucifer essentially told Yukio he can teach how to control Yukio's mysterious ability. (So Yukio could be saved)

I'm pretty sure "the chosen ones" are just demon eaters. Lucifer explained that they were strengthened by the elixir experiments.
I think the definition of "the chosen ones" are people who survived with Gedoin's medicine. They only become demon eaters after they get demons to eat. For those tourists, they didn't join the experiment by their own will, so Gedoin just forced demons possess on them. In that case they can't control the demon but controlled by demon, so I don't think they are counted as demon eaters.

Lucifer had to be notified that Yukio wasn't 100% human, and only after the blue eye incident did Lucifer say he could explain the story of the hidden birth. Tells me that Lucifer didn't observe the hidden birth but could figure out what happened solely based on the blue eye incident.
In my opinion, Lucifer's  "I see. You(r eyes) are interesting as Toudou said."  and  "Don't you want to know the secret of your birth?"  are two different things. For the eyes, Lucifer only knows after Toudou told him and he directly checked it. For the secret of birth, it sounds like Lucifer was mentioning what Yukio has wondered : "Why did Mephisto and Shiro let Satan's sons alive?"  It's possible that Lucifer knows the reason, although unrelated to Yukio's eyes.

That'd only be the case if Yukio is not unique and that there are other cases of partial incarnations that Lucifer knew about, allowing him to get a pretty good idea of Yukio's origin and abilities without seeing them.
I suspect Lucifer can directly recognize "Satan" when he checks Yukio's eyes. So Yukio can still be unique ...

I assumed "saved" from the Order, because Lucifer believed that the moment Yukio's secret got out, he wasn't protected and would be imprisoned or killed.

If the voice really is Satan's, than I actually believe Lucifer's concern
Part of the reason is to be saved from the Order, and I think another part of the reason is to be saved from the unknown and uncontrollable demon ability.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: chinonamida on August 27, 2017, 07:50:08 AM
Lucifer offered Yukio the truth because he wanted to "save" him. I assumed "saved" from the Order, because Lucifer believed that the moment Yukio's secret got out, he wasn't protected and would be imprisoned or killed.
If Lucifer wants to save him, it's certainly not from dying. We're talking about a guy who thinks bringing everything back to nothing is a good thing because then no one will have to suffer anymore. No matter what he wants to protect him from, I'd bet it's some sort of suffering.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: earthforge on August 27, 2017, 04:36:16 PM
In my opinion, Lucifer's  "I see. You(r eyes) are interesting as Toudou said."  and  "Don't you want to know the secret of your birth?"  are two different things. For the eyes, Lucifer only knows after Toudou told him and he directly checked it. For the secret of birth, it sounds like Lucifer was mentioning what Yukio has wondered : "Why did Mephisto and Shiro let Satan's sons alive?"  It's possible that Lucifer knows the reason, although unrelated to Yukio's eyes.

Don't forget what Lucy said after "don't you want to know the truth behind those eyes and the secret of your birth?" -- "These truths will manifest as your new powers." (Granted, this is the mangapanda translation. The Viz translation is 10x more ambiguous saying "in that truth there is power". I can't find S2's at the moment, but back in the chapter 67 thread chino summarized that part of the convo as " I/These truths can/will grant you 'power'. The truths behind these eyes and the hidden birth.")

So basically Yukio's eyes, the hidden birth, and that dormant potential are all linked.

Lucifer offered Yukio the truth because he wanted to "save" him. I assumed "saved" from the Order, because Lucifer believed that the moment Yukio's secret got out, he wasn't protected and would be imprisoned or killed.
If Lucifer wants to save him, it's certainly not from dying. We're talking about a guy who thinks bringing everything back to nothing is a good thing because then no one will have to suffer anymore. No matter what he wants to protect him from, I'd bet it's some sort of suffering.

D'oh. You're right. Darn Lucy and his incredibly inconsistent value-structure. Murder and mutilation are okay, but if you're too mean you've gone too far. Suffering is the worst crime ever... except for those humans turned into chimera zombies who were crying and suffering a fate worse than death. We'll just use those as cannon-fodder.

I just can't figure out why some things constitute suffering but others don't. Lucy's idea of peace a hundred years ago was basically "everyone else gets to be happy in Assiah while I die every 7-10 years, so I'm gonna wreck it for everyone so nobody gets to be special and have a healthy Assiah meatsuit". I can only assume that Lucy's idea has progressed into wrecking it for all humans and demons by having Satan incarnate so Satan destroys Assiah and Gehenna, essentially returning to nothingness. Such a cosmic temper tantrum. Or maybe he wants Gehenna to eclipse everything in Assiah so he can have a perpetual meatsuit while wiping out humanity and remove the dichotomy of strong/weak by having only his demon eaters exist?

At the same time, why the heck does he spend valuable time propping up those he sees as "weak" against "suffering"? He seems to have a patronizing pity towards humans that follow him, as if they can't help their weakness. Why personally offer the truth to Yukio, when by all appearance it looks like he doesn't even need him? Heck, maybe the "I want to save you" is just referring to the suffering Yukio is putting himself through via desperately trying to understand himself while strongly repressing himself. That basically Yukio will stop suffering when he has the truth because he'll no longer be weak. But that'd be comical because even if Yukio does get the answers he wants, he'll still suffer because he does care for others.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Madow on August 28, 2017, 03:34:15 PM

I just can't figure out why some things constitute suffering but others don't. Lucy's idea of peace a hundred years ago was basically "everyone else gets to be happy in Assiah while I die every 7-10 years, so I'm gonna wreck it for everyone so nobody gets to be special and have a healthy Assiah meatsuit". I can only assume that Lucy's idea has progressed into wrecking it for all humans and demons by having Satan incarnate so Satan destroys Assiah and Gehenna, essentially returning to nothingness. Such a cosmic temper tantrum. Or maybe he wants Gehenna to eclipse everything in Assiah so he can have a perpetual meatsuit while wiping out humanity and remove the dichotomy of strong/weak by having only his demon eaters exist?


I always thought of the merging of the two dimmensions would allow the demons naturally incorperal bodies to take form, giving them access to their true power without the risk compromising their hosts. I'd say you're right about Lucifers plan for the Demonic Royal family to take over both dimmensions, Lucy's already practically the leader of Gehenna being the most influential person there. I'd say he'd keep most humans alive out of pity, besides the ones that would try to oppose him E.G The True Cross. If they get them out of the way, he's pretty much unstoppable by that point.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Cloelia on August 30, 2017, 08:36:26 PM
Just a couple random thoughts (and I'll stop here with the nonsense for today).

This (http://kissmanga.com/Manga/Ao-no-Exorcist/Chapter-002?id=283248#51). Considering Rin's expression at the end of chapter 93 and considering that Shiro prolly knows more than we think he does, what if he was talking about Rin seeing his brother, well... in the conditions he's in right now? As we said and know, it'd be one hella shock for Rin, imo even worse than watching Shiro take his own life in front of him. This episode happened in the span of a day. Rin's been holding out his hand to Yukio, worrying about him and try to figure out his problem for months. Then, he learns from Suguro and Shiemi something shocking, runs to look for Yukio and finds him... like that? Add to this if he finds out that Yukio's been struggling with that for all those months. Yeah, a rather devastating sight. I know I'm wrong, I just like to think this, hehe.

Also, this is even more random, and just my opinion again: "To me this guy was like family. If the time comes... (http://kissmanga.com/Manga/Ao-no-Exorcist/Chapter-050?id=283572#23)" "...when I have to kill him, I'll die too. (http://kissmanga.com/Manga/Ao-no-Exorcist/Chapter-050?id=283572#24)" THAT Rin's eye. It looks like Suguro's words hit him pretty hard before he broke off into laughs and proceeded to cheer Suguro up. I dunno. The first time I read this chapter I had the feeling that those words hit Rin hard cause at some point during his life Rin happened to have that same thought too. I mean, Rin and Yukio are twins. No one ever talks about it in the manga, but these two boys were conceived practically together, they grew into their mom's womb together for months. They were born the same day, prolly just a few minutes or a couple hours apart. They've been together from day 1 onward.

I always found it fascinating and I know some users of this forum have twins too. I don't, so I can only guess. Anyway, if Rin was ever forced to kill Yukio, I think he would feel like Suguro. Even more considering that he and Yukio ARE family. So, I got the feeling that this was the meaning behind the focus on Rin's eye. He recognized himsef in Suguro's words for that one moment. And I don't know if this was meant to be a foreshadow to a possible plot twist later on (prolly, most likely, hopefully NO) but every time I see this scene I can't help but thinking this.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Ren6 on September 30, 2017, 12:16:48 PM

I also think Shima is going to die.

He's a spy, he's playing a dangerous game, it's true. But his death could become an act of heroism, a gesture of repentance after his past deeds. He made many bad decisions, betrayed his friends and lying to them, and he would decide to sacrifice himself by saving one of them (I'm thinking of Bon, Koneko, or even Izumo, because he real bonds with them), hoping to accomplish something good in his life - seeing himself as a bad person and acting on that.
Moreover, it would be an ironic and tragic end. Remember his elder brother Takezou who saved him and Bon during the Blue Night. He was constantly reminded of this sacrifice, he lived in the shadow of Takezou all his life, and must have resentment towards him. Knowing his way of thinking, he must say that his brother was stupid to die for them, but he will do the same for his friends by repeating the choices of his brother whom he never knew and of which he has more of similarities that he does not want to admit.
And Takezou would be there to welcome him to the gates of Paradise ...

My god I can't believe I think so strongly about Renzou's death when he's my favorite character. Forgive me Renzou
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: layla.A on October 01, 2017, 04:32:57 PM

I agree with rin 6, renzou will surely die (yamantaka will go even to the juzo child I'm on !!) but it is possible that is a false track because I find its too obvious even.

I also bet that lightning is going to pass!
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: facets-and-rainbows on October 03, 2017, 07:04:12 AM
Guys it's 2 am here and I thought of something weird and dark.

So you know how when Toudou was fighting Juuzou they said that when two demons of the same type (fire in this case) fight, the stronger one absorbs the weaker one's attacks?

What if it works that way with Rin and Satan?

What if part of Mephisto's plan is to take this little chunk of Satan's fire that's stuck in a human body, raise it to like Assiah, and then send it back to fight Satan and either 1) win or 2) be absorbed and influence Satan to at least tolerate Assiah? He'd get something he wants (ability to hang out in a non-destroyed Assiah) no matter how the final battle went.

...yeah I should probably go to sleep.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Cherub on October 03, 2017, 08:03:35 AM
Guys it's 2 am here and I thought of something weird and dark.

So you know how when Toudou was fighting Juuzou they said that when two demons of the same type (fire in this case) fight, the stronger one absorbs the weaker one's attacks?

What if it works that way with Rin and Satan?

What if part of Mephisto's plan is to take this little chunk of Satan's fire that's stuck in a human body, raise it to like Assiah, and then send it back to fight Satan and either 1) win or 2) be absorbed and influence Satan to at least tolerate Assiah? He'd get something he wants (ability to hang out in a non-destroyed Assiah) no matter how the final battle went.

...yeah I should probably go to sleep.

Oh boy... that would be... so dark! I haven't thought about that before :<
In retrospect that would mean Rin is a weapon that was designed to cancel out another weapon.. waahh!
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Cloelia on October 03, 2017, 08:22:59 AM
Guys it's 2 am here and I thought of something weird and dark.

So you know how when Toudou was fighting Juuzou they said that when two demons of the same type (fire in this case) fight, the stronger one absorbs the weaker one's attacks?

What if it works that way with Rin and Satan?

What if part of Mephisto's plan is to take this little chunk of Satan's fire that's stuck in a human body, raise it to like Assiah, and then send it back to fight Satan and either 1) win or 2) be absorbed and influence Satan to at least tolerate Assiah? He'd get something he wants (ability to hang out in a non-destroyed Assiah) no matter how the final battle went.

...yeah I should probably go to sleep.

Hey, being deprived of some sleep often brought me to realize things I couldn't even notice while fully awake. I think it's something like being able to give your best shot when you're the most tired. Anyway, you had me think about something else.

Yukio was weak in the womb so the "power of the blue flame" rejected him (more or less it's how Shiro explained it). Now that you said that, I thought: what if Yukio was conceived -with- the power but since HE was weak and Rin was strong, Rin ended up absorbing his flame too? (well, after all, inside the womb they were practically one next to the other. Skin-to-skin contact) That's why they could establish a connection and Rin was able to hear Yukio calling him back at the BEI and/or this could explain that weird sentence of Yukio (which to me it's still one big mystery) "Give me your flame". Like, if Yukio had the power in him too when he was in the womb but then "lost" it, he was prolly left with this "unconscious" instinct to "call" the flame back at him.

Don't mind me, I lost 4 hours of sleep waiting for chapter 94 and now I'm worn out and talking nonesense. Gee, the wait...

Edit: to further add, I thought this theory (Yukio/Rin who were conceived with the same amount of flame power but Rin absorbed Yukio's cause he was too weak in the womb) could explain a couple things. What if Yukio's constant desiring to be "stronger" (than Rin) it's nothing else but another unconscious instinct he got from having being "stolen" of his share of power? Like, he feels something's missing inside of him and can't define it other than willing to be stronger than Rin but, in reality, he's craving his missing flame?

Also, I think this could help explain Lucifer's words too. The "secret" behind Yukio's birth could be: Yukio HAD the power too but Rin absorbed it. So, "learning the truth" could help Yukio as in: if Yukio knows that Rin's in possess of his flame, he will know what he'll have to do: get the flame back from Rin. And the "potential" could be the ability to "regain" back his flame. Potential which could be unlocked ONLY by knowing the truth. It makes sence imo.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Cloelia on October 04, 2017, 06:55:32 PM
(sorry for double posting)

At this point, do you think Shura will remember about Yukio saving her life a couple months earlier and will feel like putting her own role at risk by helping him bail? Right now, she's the only one who cares for Yukio (even tough he doesn't consider her a friend, apparently) close enough, who saw what happened better than anyone and with the chance to do anything. So, I got this feel...
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: earthforge on October 04, 2017, 07:30:10 PM
At this point, do you think Shura will remember about Yukio saving her life a couple months earlier and will feel like putting her own role at risk by helping him bail? Right now, she's the only one who cares for Yukio (even tough he doesn't consider her a friend, apparently) close enough, who saw what happened better than anyone and with the chance to do anything. So, I got this feel...

Shura was already trying to protect Yukio by shouting "don't hurt him" to the incensed exorcists arresting him. But I don't think she's gonna bail him out. This isn't like with Rin. Yukio is getting arrested for a damn good reason. She saw him holding the gun. She's more likely to demand an explanation. Almost certainly he won't tell the truth. She'll get frustrated because he won't let her help.

(Yukio/Rin who were conceived with the same amount of flame power but Rin absorbed Yukio's cause he was too weak in the womb)

I think this is a good theory. The idea that Yukio had flames "stolen" at birth, whether by natural coincidence (Rin absorbing because he's stronger) or intentionally (stuffed into Kurikara to bolster Rin's power), would also be a reason for him to fight against everything he previously stood for.

There's also the added information of Mephisto refusing to confirm or deny if Yukio inherited like Rin. I mean, if Yukio hadn't, why would Mephisto do this whole song and dance? The story sounds complicated, like the answer is yes and no.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Taytronics7 on October 05, 2017, 02:50:22 PM
Theory time!

Alright, so I've been thinking about how the disappearing key would play into the story based on the cover page, and I think I have a possible scenario.

With the Gehenna Gate opening, the Order's only realistic option is to have Rin destroy it, since he could destroy a Gehenna Gate in chapter one. Since the anime had an entire plot point of Rin's sword breaking, and there have been references to the Koumaken breaking in the manga, I think it's safe to say that the Koumaken will break during Rin destroying the Gehenna Gate.

How the key fits into this is the fact that the key is described to be able to hide anything anywhere. I think that when Koumaken breaks, Rin's demon heart will be exposed, and he will use the key to hide his heart somewhere where it can't be found since if his heart is destroyed, Rin will die. Then after the sword breaks and Rin hides his heart, he will take his sword to Tatsuma to repair it and his heart will eventually be put back into Koumaken.

I find this to be an interesting possibility, mostly because it might mean that Rin would have to fight without his powers. If he can't use Koumaken, he would be forced to find another method of fighting. I remember a line Shura said in chapter 12, "What can you do without your flame?" Maybe that was foreshadowing the sword breaking. It would definitely make for some great development on Rin's part.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: SimpleBliss on October 05, 2017, 03:36:45 PM
Theory time!

Alright, so I've been thinking about how the disappearing key would play into the story based on the cover page, and I think I have a possible scenario.

With the Gehenna Gate opening, the Order's only realistic option is to have Rin destroy it, since he could destroy a Gehenna Gate in chapter one. Since the anime had an entire plot point of Rin's sword breaking, and there have been references to the Koumaken breaking in the manga, I think it's safe to say that the Koumaken will break during Rin destroying the Gehenna Gate.

How the key fits into this is the fact that the key is described to be able to hide anything anywhere. I think that when Koumaken breaks, Rin's demon heart will be exposed, and he will use the key to hide his heart somewhere where it can't be found since if his heart is destroyed, Rin will die. Then after the sword breaks and Rin hides his heart, he will take his sword to Tatsuma to repair it and his heart will eventually be put back into Koumaken.

I find this to be an interesting possibility, mostly because it might mean that Rin would have to fight without his powers. If he can't use Koumaken, he would be forced to find another method of fighting. I remember a line Shura said in chapter 12, "What can you do without your flame?" Maybe that was foreshadowing the sword breaking. It would definitely make for some great development on Rin's part.

I AM 100% ON BOARD WITH THIS
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Madow on October 05, 2017, 06:10:28 PM
Theory time!

Alright, so I've been thinking about how the disappearing key would play into the story based on the cover page, and I think I have a possible scenario.

With the Gehenna Gate opening, the Order's only realistic option is to have Rin destroy it, since he could destroy a Gehenna Gate in chapter one. Since the anime had an entire plot point of Rin's sword breaking, and there have been references to the Koumaken breaking in the manga, I think it's safe to say that the Koumaken will break during Rin destroying the Gehenna Gate.

How the key fits into this is the fact that the key is described to be able to hide anything anywhere. I think that when Koumaken breaks, Rin's demon heart will be exposed, and he will use the key to hide his heart somewhere where it can't be found since if his heart is destroyed, Rin will die. Then after the sword breaks and Rin hides his heart, he will take his sword to Tatsuma to repair it and his heart will eventually be put back into Koumaken.

I find this to be an interesting possibility, mostly because it might mean that Rin would have to fight without his powers. If he can't use Koumaken, he would be forced to find another method of fighting. I remember a line Shura said in chapter 12, "What can you do without your flame?" Maybe that was foreshadowing the sword breaking. It would definitely make for some great development on Rin's part.

100% Yes. I figure Lightning would also do some tinkering with it before or after, since he was really keen on playing with it, maybe giving it an upgrade of some sort? Either way I'm interested if this does happen, how will he fight? Im guessing he's just gonna become a brawler like Amaimon since Rin himself is a power house roughly on his level.

really want a boxing scene between them two now where they just shatter the boxing ring from their hits
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Natsume Rin on October 05, 2017, 06:17:43 PM
On the other hand, I am completely on board with Rin unintentionally absorbing Yukio's powers when they were in the womb, because...Well, not only i want to see a Demon Yukio done correctly,
 if Yukio were to know about this, he'd be fighting for something that's rightfully his.
It would also give some meaning at the line 'Give me your flames.'
I just really like this theory.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tandem on October 07, 2017, 10:46:36 AM
At this point, do you think Shura will remember about Yukio saving her life a couple months earlier and will feel like putting her own role at risk by helping him bail? Right now, she's the only one who cares for Yukio (even tough he doesn't consider her a friend, apparently) close enough, who saw what happened better than anyone and with the chance to do anything. So, I got this feel...

Shura was already trying to protect Yukio by shouting "don't hurt him" to the incensed exorcists arresting him. But I don't think she's gonna bail him out. This isn't like with Rin. Yukio is getting arrested for a damn good reason. She saw him holding the gun. She's more likely to demand an explanation. Almost certainly he won't tell the truth. She'll get frustrated because he won't let her help.
At IK arc, Shura put Rin into jail when he lost control, so she probably won't interfere only because Yukio is in jail. They won't kill Yukio immediately. Probably Shura will request the JP government to give Yukio to True Cross Order.

But if Shura really wants to get Yukio out of jail, rather than doing by herself, perhaps the easiest way is to guide Rin to save Yukio, since no normal human can fight with Rin.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: earthforge on October 07, 2017, 04:15:57 PM
I think that when Koumaken breaks, Rin's demon heart will be exposed, and he will use the key to hide his heart somewhere where it can't be found since if his heart is destroyed, Rin will die. Then after the sword breaks and Rin hides his heart, he will take his sword to Tatsuma to repair it and his heart will eventually be put back into Koumaken.

I find this to be an interesting possibility, mostly because it might mean that Rin would have to fight without his powers. If he can't use Koumaken, he would be forced to find another method of fighting. I remember a line Shura said in chapter 12, "What can you do without your flame?" Maybe that was foreshadowing the sword breaking. It would definitely make for some great development on Rin's part.

I love this idea! It makes perfect sense with the established importance of the key, the references to Koumaken breaking, and Tatsuma saying if Rin has any problems with the sword to come to him. Koumaken was also originally designed for Karura. Perhaps reforging it will make it more attuned to Rin?

Rin should still be able to use his flame if his demon heart is hidden. Whenever the sword is sheathed, he can still manifest flames, just not as much. Maybe that's why Mephisto is pushing Rin to use his flames more and more, like Shura said (http://www.mangapanda.com/ao-no-exorcist/81/8)?

If the sword is broken, it levels the playing field. Right now Rin can wipe the floor with 75% of the Illuminati easily. If he's got a reduced powerset, he'll have to learn to be creative and rely on his team more.

really want a boxing scene between them two now where they just shatter the boxing ring from their hits

Shit, I really want to see that!

if Yukio were to know about this, he'd be fighting for something that's rightfully his.
It would also give some meaning at the line 'Give me your flames.'

Hm. Yeah, that did come out of nowhere. I much preferred S2's scan for chapter 67 and explaining that moment as Yukio initially bitching about Rin's hesitance to use the flames on the zombies, and then as Lucy cornered him with "you're weak", Yukio decides screw it he didn't have time to hesitate and if Rin kept this up, he'd rather have the flames instead. That interpretation makes the Wham Line of "give me your flames" a thousand times stronger.

At IK arc, Shura put Rin into jail when he lost control, so she probably won't interfere only because Yukio is in jail. They won't kill Yukio immediately. Probably Shura will request the JP government to give Yukio to True Cross Order.

But if Shura really wants to get Yukio out of jail, rather than doing by herself, perhaps the easiest way is to guide Rin to save Yukio, since no normal human can fight with Rin.

Looks like the TC Order arrested Yukio. Altho the JP government is probably gonna want a very public punishment. Erp.

While sending Rin makes sense, I think Yukio would rather get executed than be saved by Rin. someone help this deeply screwed up child
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Cloelia on October 08, 2017, 05:10:31 PM
Yukio was weak in the womb so the "power of the blue flame" rejected him (more or less it's how Shiro explained it). Now that you said that, I thought: what if Yukio was conceived -with- the power but since HE was weak and Rin was strong, Rin ended up absorbing his flame too? (well, after all, inside the womb they were practically one next to the other. Skin-to-skin contact) That's why they could establish a connection and Rin was able to hear Yukio calling him back at the BEI and/or this could explain that weird sentence of Yukio (which to me it's still one big mystery) "Give me your flame". Like, if Yukio had the power in him too when he was in the womb but then "lost" it, he was prolly left with this "unconscious" instinct to "call" the flame back at him.

Crack, crack, crack, crack theory. Considering Rin is able to use a small amount of flames even when the Koma sword is sheathed and that the first time he used them, that's how he "broke" the seal on the sword (Shiro: "It appears the Kurikara cannot fully suppress your power") I had this sudden idea: what if this is what's happening to Yukio too?

Like, what he can use right now is a small part of his power, just like the small amount of flames Rin can use while the sword is sheathed. And the rest of his power is "sealed" somewhere else. Now, I'm following the theory above. If Rin and Yukio were both conceived with the blue flame power but Rin absorbed Yukio's cause his body was too weak (Shiro: "Yukio was underweight and couldn't bear it", hinting that Yukio prolly HAD the power at first but then "lost it", thus, Rin absorbed it) it would mean Yukio's share of power should be in the Koma sword too.

So, what if the only way to "unlock" Yukio's real power (either it's just related to his eyes, his ability to "host" Satan in them or the whole blue flame package) is to BREAK the Koma sword?

(I also noticed this other line from the Viz's translations: Satan: "I'm a perfect being and master of MANY powers". Okay, if Viz's relatable or not aside, I was thinking: what if Yukio inherited another kind of "power" and that's what his eyes are for?)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: soyunapatata22 on October 10, 2017, 06:58:34 PM
I think Samael stopped time and shot himself (or paid someone to do that) just so he could remove the barrier, that way he wouldn't deteriorate his host more, also he could kill Angel with all the demons released and wouldn't be blamed for it. 🤔
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Cherub on October 13, 2017, 06:08:45 AM
I think Samael stopped time and shot himself (or paid someone to do that) just so he could remove the barrier, that way he wouldn't deteriorate his host more, also he could kill Angel with all the demons released and wouldn't be blamed for it. 🤔

I once considered that maybe Mephisto had paid the guy to shoot him or the guy was on orders, but because Mepshito was a little suprised even though Yukio would still get the blame I guess he didn't? I'm imagining Mephisto going: "Hey, I heard your good at aiming wanna earn some extra cash? Good! All you gotta do is shoot me, preferably in the centre."

Damn. I forgot about Angel.. I wonder how his gonna take that on, if it was me I'd be pretty dead x3
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: SimpleBliss on October 21, 2017, 10:29:07 PM
Oh my God
I just had a thought
What if the mark on Drac's next is a result of a Morina's contract being broken??????
Lightning did say that Drac fit his idea of a traitor, but the one thing he couldn't figure out was how Drac would consult with the Illuminati over issues that he's bound not to speak of with the Morina's contract. But what if, because of his work with the Illuminati and immortal zombies, Drac is actually immortal? Or at least, was able to survive breaking the Morina's. That's why the mark is around his neck...because the contract is already broken. But he's alive. And now he can consult with the Illuminati as he pleases.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Taytronics7 on October 21, 2017, 10:47:05 PM
Oh my God
I just had a thought
What if the mark on Drac's next is a result of a Morina's contract being broken??????
Lightning did say that Drac fit his idea of a traitor, but the one thing he couldn't figure out was how Drac would consult with the Illuminati over issues that he's bound not to speak of with the Morina's contract. But what if, because of his work with the Illuminati and immortal zombies, Drac is actually immortal? Or at least, was able to survive breaking the Morina's. That's why the mark is around his neck...because the contract is already broken. But he's alive. And now he can consult with the Illuminati as he pleases.


I've been thinking about that too. I believe that the mark is the sign that someone helped him bypass the Morinas contract. It seems too obvious for him to be the real traitor. I think that maybe one of the Grigori helped him.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tandem on November 01, 2017, 05:39:42 AM
I guess the chance is very low, so I'd rather put this here instead of in the place your bets thread ...


Recently the Renzou line in the story is kind of confusing. I think the biggest question is what Lightning asked him to do in chapter 92. At first it seems like probably is to follow Yukio, but we are almost confirmed that it's Mephisto who ordered Renzou to do so, and even the Illuminati has a similar command, so it's completely redundant for Lightning to say the same thing. Or he wants Renzou report to him what happens to Yukio after reading the usb contents, but it's a little strange considering Lightning should know Vatican was going to arrest him soon.

Another question is why Yukio seems to beat Renzou up pretty easily. Although there exists several valid reasons like boosting from Satan / lack of training /  caught off-guard, I just have the idea what if the two questions are the same thing :  Lightning asked Renzou to let Yukio go

Mephisto seems to order Renzou to watch Yukio or restrict his move when he displays Satan's power. Lightning perhaps intends to interrupt / break Mephisto's masterplan, and by giving Yukio the usb it's easier for Yukio entering a more unstable state. I don't know what the motive is, but it seems like a possible explanation.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Cloelia on November 01, 2017, 09:35:28 AM
Since Shima was brought up, I had this question for a while. Do you think, aside Suguro and Koneko, Shima considers somehow Rin a friend too?

Cause if you think about it, in the middle of all this mess, Shima's one of the few characters with the most large amount of informations regarding Yukio (plus, he's the only one who actually saw with his own eyes what he's going through) but he acts like he gives two shets about Yukio and his problems (and that's okay, THEY're not friends and there's no doubt about it) but, if Shima considers -Rin- a friend, even just a lil, yeah, I understand he's doing everything for the sake of the mission and he probably really cares for his own life that much, but do you think he feels a lil guilty for knowing about Yukio (and it looks like he knows more than we think, "Is that Satan's power?" hinting he does indeed know what's really going on with Yukio) but keeping all the infos from his brother? I mean, we know Shima is not that heartless when it comes to his friends.

When Yukio threatened Suguro, Shima showed up to warn him not to involve him anymore or when Izumo tried to escape, he pretended to kill Uke and Mike. So HE does let his feelings out (even if behind the curtains) when they're friends are in trouble. I'm not saying Shima should've told everything to Rin, but, I don't know, even just give him a small subtle hint (in secret, obviously). But I guess I already answered my own question myself, hehe.

Edit: I'm gonna go against what I just said but, another random question, in chapter 93 do you think Shima was 100% sure that if Yukio pulled that trigger, Satan would have showed up and saved him? I mean, Shima's been observing Yukio's experiments from the beginning. We know that when Yukio tried to kill himself in chapter 93 he was sure he was gonna succeed because he believed the eyes' trigger was the "fear" of the death and not the risk itself. So, since he was willingly accepting the death at the time, he was sure the eyes' power wouldn't activate.

I'm guessing Shima should've thought the same if he didn't have a clue about what Yukio's -real- eyes' power is. But when Yukio pulled the trigger, Shima didn't intervene to stop him. So, either he did know the eyes' power would protect him this time too, or he's really that heartless but, I don't think so. Shima needs to bring Yukio to the Illuminati, so why risk to let him die? Argh... I want to know what Shima actually knows!
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tandem on November 01, 2017, 03:48:20 PM
It depends on what your "friend" means, but from your description I think you mean close friendship, not superficial friendship.

Then my answer is "No"


Instead of clarifying Rin's relationship with him, I'll compare Rin's relationship with other people. In my opinion, Rin and Shiemi becomes close friends in chapter 3, and then very close friends in chapter 26. Rin and Bon becomes close friends in chapter 4, and then very close friends during IK arc. Rin and Koneko becomes close friends because he saved everyone from IK. Rin and Izumo becomes (somewhat) close friends in chapter 5, and then very close friends because he went to save her in nine-tail arc. Rin and Shura becomes very close friends because he went to save her in Aomori arc. Rin and Godaiin becomes very close friends because he worked hard to get the eyedrop for him.

In each of the above case you can easily find at which chapter, or even at which page, the relationship between Rin and the other person turns strong. However, there is no similar event between Rin and Renzou. They are classmates and perhaps have some common interest, but their relationship is far less close than Rin's relation with other MC.

when Yukio pulled the trigger, Shima didn't intervene to stop him. So, either he did know the eyes' power would protect him this time too, or he's really that heartless
Or there was less than 1 second to react, so nothing he can do
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Cloelia on November 01, 2017, 07:24:38 PM
^Yes, that's exactly what I meant. I liked your analysis, it really made me think. The only reason why I thought Shima considers Rin a friend (even though we're not shown a lot of moments of them together) is for what happened at the beginning of the IK arc. The whole thing with the Kyoto trio trying to avoid Rin but then Shima going like "He's not that bad, he's a good guy. There's no reason to treat him like that." which gave me something like a feeling that Shima is not that "neutral" towards Rin aka may consider him like a friend (not a close one, but still a friend). But you got a point here.

Or there was less than 1 second to react, so nothing he can do

What I meant is that in between the time Yukio fell, picked the gun up from the ground and took a few moments to stare at the sky (I mean, it should've been easy to guess what he was about to do judging from the course of these actions), Shima could've intervened if he wanted to.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Cloelia on November 07, 2017, 05:00:06 PM
Sorry for double posting.

Oh, my. I was reading this (https://1sthisako.tumblr.com/post/167209653477/blue-exorcist-theory-2-arthur-auguste-angel-the) theory on tumblr about Angel possibly being the human host of Satan and it made me think of two things. All that's mentioned in this theory aside, in chapter 86 it is stated somehow that the infamous strongest enhanced human was the product of the process to create -specifically- Lucifer's possession body and not any other Baal. The scientists were somehow expecting, at first, -Lucifer- was the one possessing THAT body. But it turned out it was Satan.

AND, I mentioned this before, but let's try to stick with the manga: we're shown one pic of this strongest enhanced human, and his hair is BLONDE. Oc, if he was meant to be a clone of Lucifer, he would've blonde hair. I assumed Kato-sama left his hair white (I'm referring to the inking) 'cause she wanted to keep the real color "vague". But, as I said, I think it makes sense the clone of Lucifer would have blonde hair. And I agree with all the rest of the theory points. The whole thing with Angel conveniently not remembering about Asylum and his past and all the rest.

Now, before we bring the blood types topic up, I thought about something. What if Satan, while possessing someone, can somehow "mutate" their blood? When he opened the Gehenna Gate in chapter 1, he used Shiro's blood. I doubt Shiro's own blood would've had that kinda power while not possessed. Satan turned Shiro's blood into his "own" and used it to create the Gate. Why the need to show Satan specifically use blood to create a Gate? I think Kato-sama could've come up with any other fancy idea.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Kittykat on November 07, 2017, 09:04:20 PM
Sorry for double posting.

Oh, my. I was reading this (https://1sthisako.tumblr.com/post/167209653477/blue-exorcist-theory-2-arthur-auguste-angel-the) theory on tumblr about Angel possibly being the human host of Satan and it made me think of two things. All that's mentioned in this theory aside, in chapter 86 it is stated somehow that the infamous strongest enhanced human was the product of the process to create -specifically- Lucifer's possession body and not any other Baal. The scientists were somehow expecting, at first, -Lucifer- was the one possessing THAT body. But it turned out it was Satan.

AND, I mentioned this before, but let's try to stick with the manga: we're shown one pic of this strongest enhanced human, and his hair is BLONDE. Oc, if he was meant to be a clone of Lucifer, he would've blonde hair. I assumed Kato-sama left his hair white (I'm referring to the inking) 'cause she wanted to keep the real color "vague". But, as I said, I think it makes sense the clone of Lucifer would have blonde hair. And I agree with all the rest of the theory points. The whole thing with Angel conveniently not remembering about Asylum and his past and all the rest.

Now, before we bring the blood types topic up, I thought about something. What if Satan, while possessing someone, can somehow "mutate" their blood? When he opened the Gehenna Gate in chapter 1, he used Shiro's blood. I doubt Shiro's own blood would've had that kinda power while not possessed. Satan turned Shiro's blood into his "own" and used it to create the Gate. Why the need to show Satan specifically use blood to create a Gate? I think Kato-sama could've come up with any other fancy idea.

Well, the use of blood was emphasized later on as a component of summoning or entering a contract with a demon. Kamiki and Shiemi with the circles, and Yukio with the Morinas contract. I suppose it’s to formulate a direct link with recipients. Although I can’t say why Mephisto had to sacrifice blood to cast a spell on the artificial gate... yet he didn’t have to do anything when summoning the cuckoo clock or prison. The Gehenna gate is a summons. At least that’s how I perceived it. Not just rift to a different world like the artificial gate which would explain why it’s possessing Assiah instead. Uncontrolled and all that. And I would figure that the reason that Satan is the only demon capable of summoning it is because he’s the ego of Gehenna. This further emphasizes that the artificial gate is something altogether different.

Edit: I’m just wondering what it means for Rin if Gehenna and Assiah is merging, and the fact that the scabbard of Kurikara was acting like a mini gate to his heart (or whatever Amaimon said). If it means anything at all that is.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Cloelia on November 18, 2017, 03:11:26 PM
I got a super crack theory. I said before that I would just keep posting whatever comes in my mind and don't care if it sounds stupid and so on, but, this is really cracky, so feel free to ignore this crap.

What's this theory about? Well, out of nowhere I suddenly had this doubt: what if everything that happens from chapter 93 to chapter 95 could actually be part of an -ingenious- Yukio's plan?

Now, here are some basics I kept in mind:

-Yukio's battle against Todo.
-Yukio using the nutrient bullets trick twice. ("Can't you do anything else?" (Rin))
-Yukio's infamous ability to fake emotions to his advantage/convenience.
-Yukio's plan to trick Hachirotaro into shifting Shura's regenerative ability/demon sword contract to him.
-Kato-sama is an unpredictable betch and a sucker for plot twists.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tandem on November 18, 2017, 03:39:19 PM
That's surely crack. What I get is the idea that the past two chapters are actually a trap for Rin. Although we've been expecting Yukio eventually turn against Rin for a while, but certainly not to that level.

But what is Shima or Lightning's role in this theory? I thought you were going to include them?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Cloelia on November 18, 2017, 03:49:32 PM
^ Let's say it's -crap-, lol

As I said, Rin part's sorta just a scratch. I had more ideas about Mephisto's shooting part.

About Shima and Lightning I had something in mind too. But I couldn't find a way to put the pieces together so I didn't include that part. It was something along the lines of: Shima got asked by Lightning to suggest Yukio a plan (related to Mephisto's shooting), so Lightning's acting like a source of infos for Yukio and Shima is the "mediator". But, that would've meant Yukio was -accepting- help from Lightning. And I said Yukio's still too stubborn to accept help (even from Satan) so I cut that part off.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: HorseTechie on November 19, 2017, 05:30:15 AM
^ Haah... no, this idea doesn't sound too far fetched. I couldn't quite place a finger on it until you spelled out an important detail that it looked like too much time had passed between when Shima witnessed Yukio shooting himself, and then calling Mephisto that Yukio is "going to break". 

Because the sudden way Yukio went from feeling terribly sorry for himself, to going after Memphisto with a renewed sense of anger was very curious.  What was his real motive?

And then we were left hanging in not knowing what Lightening had asked Shima help him do..... 

Something is going on, and I do agree Yukio is up to no good. The question is if it is for Satan... because.. I wondrt why would Yukio WANT to help Satan now (after so much appearing to be against him earlier on in this series). 
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: SimpleBliss on November 19, 2017, 05:57:00 AM
You're right, it IS suspicious that the time stamps are being shown now. Is it to illustrate the large gaps, for better flashbacks? Or...

What if...

In the anime, when Satan began talking to Yukio, he told Yukio everything. Then, in a fit of anger, Yukio confronted Egin.

What if this is the same here?

What if, between knocking Shima unconscious and confronting Mephisto, Satan spoke to Yukio?

After all, Satan DID talk to Yukio a little, when he called him a fool. Why wouldn't he say anything else? I think that Satan must have said something provocative, causing Yukio to angrily confront Mephisto again. What he said, I don't know...maybe this is the start of that demonic rage I talked about. After all, he s got the "demonic" part down. Satan just has to keep sparking the rage. He's a provocative voice. He must have some effect on Yukio. I don't think Satan is the silent type, anyways (truthfully, he just can't stand awkward silences).

(Shima didn't call Mephisto sooner because he was unconscious, by the way)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: HorseTechie on November 19, 2017, 06:06:10 AM
Quote
(Shima didn't call Mephisto sooner because he was unconscious, by the way)
Hai, that was my first thought too.... but that kind of seemed like a long time though. (And without another random passerby not noticing him there?) *tsk*
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: earthforge on November 19, 2017, 05:24:58 PM
After all, Satan DID talk to Yukio a little, when he called him a fool. Why wouldn't he say anything else? I think that Satan must have said something provocative, causing Yukio to angrily confront Mephisto again. What he said, I don't know...maybe this is the start of that demonic rage I talked about. After all, he s got the "demonic" part down. Satan just has to keep sparking the rage. He's a provocative voice. He must have some effect on Yukio. I don't think Satan is the silent type, anyways (truthfully, he just can't stand awkward silences).

Maybe Yukio unconsciously locks out Satan's voice? He started to hear it when he was at his lowest, but stopped hearing it after the suicide attempt. It reminds me of how his eyes used to change back when the life-threatening circumstance ended, but now they are spontaneously activating/deactivating. The biggest difference between then and now is that Yukio clearly no longer fears being seen with the eyes active. So if this is the case, then Yukio's self-denial is both the shield from Satan's influence and the reason why Yukio couldn't learn anything from the suicidal training.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: WhiteFang on November 19, 2017, 11:09:24 PM
I think a super crack theory at this point, given the whole situation with the time-stamps, would be that Yukio is actually using the insanity as a facade, *let* himself be caught on purpose, and eventually plans to defect as well (to the Illuminati) to meet this sort of ultimate end of not only exorcising himself of Satan, but wrecking the Illuminati from the inside in the process (dying as a martyr himself). I just wouldn't put it past his demented ego and clever dick self, is all I'm sayin'. And it would be quite the twist, though perhaps a bit too similar with the whole act he put up with Shura. Then again, the whole atmosphere there, I see part of that as blatant foreshadowing where the next time he goes against his friends and Rin, he's actually going to mean it instead of faking it. Kind of rambled away there, but who knows.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: SKL on November 20, 2017, 12:38:43 AM
I got a super crack theory. I said before that I would just keep posting whatever comes in my mind and don't care if it sounds stupid and so on, but, this is really cracky, so feel free to ignore this crap.

What's this theory about? Well, out of nowhere I suddenly had this doubt: what if everything that happens from chapter 93 to chapter 95 could actually be part of an -ingenious- Yukio's plan?

Now, here are some basics I kept in mind:

-Yukio's battle against Todo.
-Yukio using the nutrient bullets trick twice. ("Can't you do anything else?" (Rin))
-Yukio's infamous ability to fake emotions to his advantage/convenience.
-Yukio's plan to trick Hachirotaro into shifting Shura's regenerative ability/demon sword contract to him.
-Kato-sama is an unpredictable betch and a sucker for plot twists.

(click to show/hide)

You sure make some great theories. I think it's possible and much of it adds up. But I don't think Yukio can suddenly start being persuaded by Satan so quickly even in this broken state, and even if Satan started saying some convincing stuff. Satan has been pretty much the bane of Yukio's life. What with Rin, Shiro's death, and now himself. The reason behind his whole sh*tty life can be traced back to Satan. Sure Yukio is at rock bottom right now, and may even be willing to be very destructive to all he knows, but I don't think he will suddenly ally with his greatest bane in 3-4 hours of persuasion.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tandem on November 20, 2017, 07:31:10 AM
Although theoretically Satan is also Yukio's ultimate enemy, until now we haven't seen many of Yukio's thoughts on Satan. Rin and Bon declared they'll beat Satan one day, but Yukio didn't. Unlike Rin, Yukio didn't witness Shiro's death. It's likely all his opinion about Satan come from other people : Shiro told him Satan is bad, the Order told him Satan is bad, Mephisto or the Order told him Satan killed Shiro, ... etc. You wouldn't expect Rin listen to a word from Satan, but things might be different in Yukio's case. That's what the anime-only ending is based for. And actually part of the anime-only audience are also convinced that Satan is not so bad (well, because they forget what happened in ep2).
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: SKL on November 20, 2017, 09:56:38 AM
^
No I do think it's possible for Satan to persuade Yukio into something eventually, I just don't think it could happen that quickly. It would be bad writing in my opinion. Katou is so careful with her character lead-ups and build-ups to an action, that I would see it as pretty sloppy plot-wise for Satan to win Yukio over so immediately and during the very first instance they sort-of interacted.

Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Cloelia on November 20, 2017, 11:00:33 AM
^ First of all, pleasure to meet you, SKL! I joined this forum on April and right now I'm not sure if you were active/a lot active at the time. But I read a lot (a very lot) of old topics months ago (I literally sat here and read Yukio's/Rin's and the twins topic all in one stand, to say one) to catch up to as many posts as possible (man, I wish I'd found this place earlier, why could I never find it?) so even if someone doesn't post for a while and shows up again I feel "familiar" with them somehow. So, hehe, it's a pleasure to see someone come back and post again! *sorry for off-topic*

Thank you for going through the long -crack- theory. I agree Satan wouldn't be able to "brain-wash" Yukio's mind no matter which words or arguments he can come up with. Toward the end, I said that I think Yukio will -not- actually accept to eventually help Satan, but may decide to "trick" him into believing that but he (Yukio) will actually be "using" him to his advantage (get "power" from him in the end. Which is stupid, I know, but that's the first thing I thought of).

And I used Hachirotaro's episode as an example. In that case too, Yukio tricked Hachirotaro into thinking he wanted to make a contract to their mutual benefit, but he was actually faking the whole thing and aiming to get an advantage only to -himself- (:to free Shura from the "limit age" contract and get the regenerative ability and demon sword to himself. I know this is not 100% accurate and I'm sure Yukio expected Rin to stab Hachiro before he could end signing the contract symbol. Even if, when Yukio is checking his chest to see how much of the symbol was drawn on it, it made me wonder if Yukio actually -hoped- he could've got that "power", after all). So, Yukio used this "method" already and not against any random demon.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: SKL on November 20, 2017, 10:42:07 PM
^ First of all, pleasure to meet you, SKL! I joined this forum on April and right now I'm not sure if you were active/a lot active at the time. But I read a lot (a very lot) of old topics months ago (I literally sat here and read Yukio's/Rin's and the twins topic all in one stand, to say one) to catch up to as many posts as possible (man, I wish I'd found this place earlier, why could I never find it?) so even if someone doesn't post for a while and shows up again I feel "familiar" with them somehow. So, hehe, it's a pleasure to see someone come back and post again! *sorry for off-topic*
Nice to meet you too Cloelia! It's the same I feel like I already know you since I've read many of your posts.
I tend to come and go in the forums. There are periods where a I post a lot and others where I drop off and life takes me to other places. But I was there when this forum was in the planning. Like Neeneen and earthforge especially were at mangafox brainstorming, and made this forum happen. Which is pretty neat.

Quote
And I used Hachirotaro's episode as an example. In that case too, Yukio tricked Hachirotaro into thinking he wanted to make a contract to their mutual benefit, but he was actually faking the whole thing and aiming to get an advantage only to -himself- (:to free Shura from the "limit age" contract and get the regenerative ability and demon sword to himself. I know this is not 100% accurate and I'm sure Yukio expected Rin to stab Hachiro before he could end signing the contract symbol. Even if, when Yukio is checking his chest to see how much of the symbol was drawn on it, it made me wonder if Yukio actually -hoped- he could've got that "power", after all). So, Yukio used this "method" already and not against any random demon.
Yukio is so complex and is really a much darker character than Rin. Like you say his ploy on Hachirotaro was a masterstroke. He saved Shura's life by solving a seemingly inescapable problem. Just think about it. Even Shiro probably didn't think there was a way to get her out and accepted her short life as an inevitability. Yukio, in a way, was the true hero of that arc. But to succeed, he had to employ some dark tools. This being the fact that he understands a demon's mind better than Rin ever could...and most likely as Toudou insists, it's because he can think like one as well.

It was all an act of course. As you see it worked so well for Hachitaro that he ended up finding Yukio the most interesting fellow he encountered in a long time right up until he realized he was played for a fool. But as Shima goaded, there's always some truth laced in those lies. The problem is we don't know which parts were true and not so true. We know Yukio seeks power, but so far I think it's been mostly as a defensive measure. He has realized how vulnerable he is and needs the power to take down his enemies. It didn't seem like Yukio ever wanted power for evil domineering or megalomaniac reasons, or to subjugate the innocent. Can that it be morphed into that? There's a chance if Katou really wants to push that route I guess. There's also the statement of getting rid of his annoying brother. We already know he harbors jealousy and resentment toward Rin, but we also know for sure he loves him as well. Again it depends on what route Katou wants to take. How strong are these darker desires? In my opinion, I think it's very human and quite normal to harbor some darker thoughts/desires like this. Whether it's overpowering or if the person acts on them is what determines whether it's good or bad I believe.

What I'd like to see is Yukio actually tricking Satan like you said. He's done it several times now with other demons, that it would be the most amazing feat if he takes part in Satan's defeat in such a way. Yukio is somewhat akin to Lighting in some regard I think. They employ darker and morally questionable tactics to succeed. And in a story like this, I do think it's a necessity for some characters to take this role in order for the 'good guys' to win. Let Rin, Shiemi, Bon etc take their roles as the shining knights of all that is good, while people like Yukio, Lightning, and Shima do the dark and dirtier (yet necessary) tasks. I think both are needed to win.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: SimpleBliss on November 21, 2017, 12:51:43 AM
I got a super crack theory. I said before that I would just keep posting whatever comes in my mind and don't care if it sounds stupid and so on, but, this is really cracky, so feel free to ignore this crap.

What's this theory about? Well, out of nowhere I suddenly had this doubt: what if everything that happens from chapter 93 to chapter 95 could actually be part of an -ingenious- Yukio's plan?

Now, here are some basics I kept in mind:

-Yukio's battle against Todo.
-Yukio using the nutrient bullets trick twice. ("Can't you do anything else?" (Rin))
-Yukio's infamous ability to fake emotions to his advantage/convenience.
-Yukio's plan to trick Hachirotaro into shifting Shura's regenerative ability/demon sword contract to him.
-Kato-sama is an unpredictable betch and a sucker for plot twists.

(click to show/hide)

It's not too far fetched to believe Yukio is planning something big, mainly because we're still in the dark about what he went to Headquarters to do after he got out of the hospital....sounds like he's setting something up...

Yukio didn't say anything after he got arrested. Here's a crack theory: What if Yukio set up/hired the shooter himself? Because he WANTS the world to go to hell?

Though I doubt that because he seriously looked surprised about the shooter...

Wait I think this is what you were saying, Cloelia
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Taytronics7 on November 21, 2017, 06:04:47 AM
I've been thinking about what Lightning wanted Shima to do in order to get the spell off him. It's easy to assume that it's Yukio who Lightning is interested in keeping tabs on, but what if it isn't? All we know is that Lightning asked Shima to "do something for him". I'm starting to think that it has something to do with Lightning's investigation and the upcoming trial. Throughout the Blue Night Investigation arc, we see that while Bon and Lightning are discovering the secrets of Section 13, at the same time we see Shiemi learn something from her mother that causes her to quit being an exorcist. I don't think it's mere coincidence that these 2 events are happening at the same time.

Maybe Lightning's request of Shima is where these two plotlines merge. If we go with the theory that Shiemi's mother is the nephilim of Shemihaza and the real traitor based on chapter 87, maybe Lightning wants Shima to bring Shiemi in for the trial and examine her as a witness. As of chapter 95, Shima has the perfect opportunity to confront Shiemi about it. Her and Izumo tricked the guards into leaving and Izumo faked being ill in order for the other two guards to bring her to the infirmery, leaving Shiemi all alone.


Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: AlienGirl on November 24, 2017, 09:05:45 AM
I thought of a theorie concerning the traitor.

I don't think that Drac is the traitor. I find it's too easy and Kato likes surprising us now ! So I thought about it and I was wondering if Angel could be the traitor...
I know it's a crazy theorie but maybe he plays a double dealing since the beginning. x)

What do you think ?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: earthforge on November 24, 2017, 06:17:18 PM
Could be! I'm nearly 100% sure that Angel is a Lucy clone, and Angel already has suspicious amnesia of his life before and on the Blue Night.

Noticing that many of our Crack Theories are a variant of "character is really only acting and really has a super-secret plan". It's been this way since Renzou turned out to be a spy. Curse you, Renzou!
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: AlienGirl on November 24, 2017, 06:49:27 PM
Could be! I'm nearly 100% sure that Angel is a Lucy clone, and Angel already has suspicious amnesia of his life before and on the Blue Night.

Yes, me too. Especially that his sword "Caliburn" is affiliated to the light (not really mentioned in the manga but in chapter 38, when he brings down the Impure Princess, his attack looks like a brightness of light, also in the last episode of the first season so...)
And I find that he hasn't played an important role yet.

Aaah so many questions... I look forward to learning more ! x)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Cloelia on December 04, 2017, 09:53:28 PM
Time to blurb out some nonesense again. What if Lightning is an Illuminati spy and he gave Yukio the usb to "push him" to join the Illuminati on purpose? Well, essentially, Yukio's decided to finally take that route thanks to that. Plus, he asked Shima to do him a favor and the only thing Shima did so far is come pick Yukio with an helicopter to escort him to the Illuminati.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Megamadic on December 04, 2017, 09:56:09 PM
Time to blurb out some nonesense again. What if Lightning is an Illuminati spy and he gave Yukio the usb to "push him" to join the Illuminati on purpose? Well, essentially, Yukio's decided to finally take that route thanks to that. Plus, he asked Shima to do him a favor and the only thing Shima did so far is come pick Yukio with an helicopter to escort him to the Illuminati.

If Lightning turns out to be the other Illuminati spy within the order I think I will literally cry.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: earthforge on December 07, 2017, 06:01:30 AM
Putting this here because I don't have good canon-support for the following argument. It's more of a headcanon, but it forms the basis of why I am sympathetic to Yukio.

Here's the deal: I believe the cause of Yukio's sore loser attitude is feelings of abandonment.

This seems a bit out there, so I'll explain: Rin never could see demons, while Yukio always could. Growing up, Yukio had to have told Rin about what he saw. Since kids play make-believe, Rin might have even gone along with it. However, as Rin got older, he would've thought that Yukio was just being a scaredy-cat. Lol little bro, monsters in the bathroom don't exist. Except... they did. Eventually Yukio stopped telling Rin what he saw. He couldn't rely on Rin to help him. But Rin would inconsistently try to help, not noticing that Yukio was getting targeted by demons, but would react if he saw kids bullying Yukio. So Yukio developed this "I don't need your help [because you'll let me down]" attitude.

This also explains Yukio's tendency to abandon Rin. Yukio is aware he does this, implicitly bringing it up when he muses about Rin arriving sooner than he expected and wonders how they could've turned out so differently. Rin never stops trying to help people even if they have left him before, while Yukio walks out on people before they can leave him. A lot of his seeking power antics have roots in fearing being surpassed AKA left behind.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Natsume Rin on December 07, 2017, 01:51:50 PM
Theory....Satan will try to fully possess either Rin or Yukio
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tandem on December 09, 2017, 04:19:24 PM
Quote
(Shima didn't call Mephisto sooner because he was unconscious, by the way)
Hai, that was my first thought too.... but that kind of seemed like a long time though. (And without another random passerby not noticing him there?) *tsk*
I review the whole event and then get some new (crack) theory :

Though it's natural to assume Shima just faint on the snow ground after Yukio's kick, but he never really said (https://cdn.mangahub.io/file/imghub/ao-no-exorcist/94/16.jpg) that.

This is what I think could happen in the morning : After Yukio's kick, Shima still had a talk with him. And then something happened (because this talk won't last several hours). It could be Illuminati coming. That's why Shima can't call Mephisto earlier.

And it's also why Yukio went to Mephisto for answer. Some Illuminati representative (for example, boss lady) pointed out he can ask Lucifer for the answers of the eye, but Yukio still couldn't decide to leave the Order so he asked Illuminati to wait for a while. He went to talk to Mephisto as the last try. Then it failed and Yukio is arrested. But he knows that the Illuminati is going to pick him up soon, and that's why he stopped and started to delay Rin's rescue in this chapter.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: HorseTechie on December 10, 2017, 04:58:46 AM
Yes... because then it makes more sense for Shima to 'just so happen' to be there with a helicopter when Rin was trying to make a break for it after freeing Yukio.

Some sort of communication that we have not heard yet must have gone on between Shima, Mephisto, and other parties in question. Yukio did know that Rin would go after him... it was the 'when' that he couldn't pinpont precisely.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Cloelia on December 10, 2017, 05:37:10 PM
Quote
(Shima didn't call Mephisto sooner because he was unconscious, by the way)
Hai, that was my first thought too.... but that kind of seemed like a long time though. (And without another random passerby not noticing him there?) *tsk*
I review the whole event and then get some new (crack) theory :

Though it's natural to assume Shima just faint on the snow ground after Yukio's kick, but he never really said (https://cdn.mangahub.io/file/imghub/ao-no-exorcist/94/16.jpg) that.

This is what I think could happen in the morning : After Yukio's kick, Shima still had a talk with him. And then something happened (because this talk won't last several hours). It could be Illuminati coming. That's why Shima can't call Mephisto earlier.

And it's also why Yukio went to Mephisto for answer. Some Illuminati representative (for example, boss lady) pointed out he can ask Lucifer for the answers of the eye, but Yukio still couldn't decide to leave the Order so he asked Illuminati to wait for a while. He went to talk to Mephisto as the last try. Then it failed and Yukio is arrested. But he knows that the Illuminati is going to pick him up soon, and that's why he stopped and started to delay Rin's rescue in this chapter.

I'm starting to think this could be quite possible. As I said before, we're left with this mysterious 4 hours gap in-between the time Shima shows up in front of Yukio after he tried to shoot himself and Yukio reappearing in front of Mephisto/Shima calling him to warn him. Something must definitely have happened. I thought it could be related to some Yukio's plan. I don't completely buy that Yukio didn't give any chance to Shima to talk before he seized him to the floor. I have a feeling what actually happened (aside the only panel we're shown) was cut down on purpose and could be revealed later. Prolly even next chapter.

There's also that thing about Shima wanting to warn/inform Mephisto about something else right before he cut the call down. So it's possible he wanted to warn Mephisto about the Illuminati getting active over Yukio's case very soon. Or about what Lightning asked him to do (anyway, whatever Lightning asked Shima to do it has to be related to Yukio, right? 'Cause before asking Shima to do him the favor Lightning specifically asked: "You're spying on Yukio Okumura, right?").

And it could also tie up to the shooter thing because nothing can't convince me that the shooter being there and shooting his gun in THAT exact moment wasn't planned by someone beforehand. So, if it was not Yukio's plan, then it was the Illuminati's. And they're objective is easy to guess: get Mephisto to drop the barrier around the gate down. Or maybe it's all connected. Argh. Complicated.

Anyway, that's right. Yukio stating: "You came sooner than expected." sounds like he had some plans and was most likely hoping he could get away (through Shima's help) before Rin reached him so to avoid to confront him. As in: "I knew you'd come to rescue me, so I wanted to be gone before you reached me. But you didn't lose any time and so we ended up meeting."

It also made me remember about chapter 16. When Todo was buying time after the fake stealing of the eye incident.

In any case, if Yukio and Shima actually had a talk I guess it went like, Shima: "Gee, dude, why you keep acting like a moron? You have an easy way to get what you want. Just accept it and cut out the stubborn act already. You were about to give up on your life. You're so low right now to do that. At this point, why not accept help even if it comes from you enemy? Oh, but I guess you know by now the Order and Illuminati are not that different. So the choice should be easier for you now, right?"
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: SKL on December 11, 2017, 01:44:52 AM
Quote
(Shima didn't call Mephisto sooner because he was unconscious, by the way)
Hai, that was my first thought too.... but that kind of seemed like a long time though. (And without another random passerby not noticing him there?) *tsk*
I review the whole event and then get some new (crack) theory :

Though it's natural to assume Shima just faint on the snow ground after Yukio's kick, but he never really said (https://cdn.mangahub.io/file/imghub/ao-no-exorcist/94/16.jpg) that.

This is what I think could happen in the morning : After Yukio's kick, Shima still had a talk with him. And then something happened (because this talk won't last several hours). It could be Illuminati coming. That's why Shima can't call Mephisto earlier.

And it's also why Yukio went to Mephisto for answer. Some Illuminati representative (for example, boss lady) pointed out he can ask Lucifer for the answers of the eye, but Yukio still couldn't decide to leave the Order so he asked Illuminati to wait for a while. He went to talk to Mephisto as the last try. Then it failed and Yukio is arrested. But he knows that the Illuminati is going to pick him up soon, and that's why he stopped and started to delay Rin's rescue in this chapter.

I'm starting to think this could be quite possible. As I said before, we're left with this mysterious 4 hours gap in-between the time Shima shows up in front of Yukio after he tried to shoot himself and Yukio reappearing in front of Mephisto/Shima calling him to warn him. Something must definitely have happened. I thought it could be related to some Yukio's plan. I don't completely buy that Yukio didn't give any chance to Shima to talk before he seized him to the floor. I have a feeling what actually happened (aside the only panel we're shown) was cut down on purpose and could be revealed later. Prolly even next chapter.

There's also that thing about Shima wanting to warn/inform Mephisto about something else right before he cut the call down. So it's possible he wanted to warn Mephisto about the Illuminati getting active over Yukio's case very soon. Or about what Lightning asked him to do (anyway, whatever Lightning asked Shima to do it has to be related to Yukio, right? 'Cause before asking Shima to do him the favor Lightning specifically asked: "You're spying on Yukio Okumura, right?").

And it could also tie up to the shooter thing because nothing can't convince me that the shooter being there and shooting his gun in THAT exact moment wasn't planned by someone beforehand. So, if it was not Yukio's plan, then it was the Illuminati's. And they're objective is easy to guess: get Mephisto to drop the barrier around the gate down. Or maybe it's all connected. Argh. Complicated.

Anyway, that's right. Yukio stating: "You came sooner than expected." sounds like he had some plans and was most likely hoping he could get away (through Shima's help) before Rin reached him so to avoid to confront him. As in: "I knew you'd come to rescue me, so I wanted to be gone before you reached me. But you didn't lose any time and so we ended up meeting."

It also made me remember about chapter 16. When Todo was buying time after the fake stealing of the eye incident.

In any case, if Yukio and Shima actually had a talk I guess it went like, Shima: "Gee, dude, why you keep acting like a moron? You have an easy way to get what you want. Just accept it and cut out the stubborn act already. You were about to give up on your life. You're so low right now to do that. At this point, why not accept help even if it comes from you enemy? Oh, but I guess you know by now the Order and Illuminati are not that different. So the choice should be easier for you now, right?"

I've been wondering why Katou even had Shima come in that time if nothing really happened, so it makes sense we are missing some dialogue that went on behind the scenes. But if Yukio agreed on some plan by Shima that the Illuminati would come bail him out, that would mean Yukio planned to get arrested or expected he would be. I don't think Yukio expected to shoot (or try to) Mephisto because it seemed like raw emotion/impulse and no planned decision at that time. The least I can think is that Yukio knew he might get into trouble because he was going to probably get reckless to get some answers, and he didn't care. Oh what's that Shima? The Illuminati will be there for me? I'll keep that in mind I guess.

So I don't think Yukio got so buddy-buddy with Shima at that time to the point of making some plans and contingencies. Otherwise he wouldn't have wrestled Shima to the ground.

So some dialogue like this
In any case, if Yukio and Shima actually had a talk I guess it went like, Shima: "Gee, dude, why you keep acting like a moron? You have an easy way to get what you want. Just accept it and cut out the stubborn act already. You were about to give up on your life. You're so low right now to do that. At this point, why not accept help even if it comes from you enemy? Oh, but I guess you know by now the Order and Illuminati are not that different. So the choice should be easier for you now, right?"

Yukio likely listened to Shima but probably was still stubbornly refusing to be completely bought in, got tired of seeing his shit-eating grin and wrestled him down. (that or they did make plans but then Shima made some tease at the end, and Yukio comedically put him in his place)

Yukio also seemed a bit surprised when he saw the chopper, but not so surprised that he didn't expect they might be waiting in the wings for him (because he knows they want to recruit him bad). What I mean is, it's  not the just in time as we planned look implying that Yukio already gave them the thumbs-up.



Speaking of the helicopter, I noticed it teleported through a light power, and just appeared in the air. Does that mean Lucifer could be in the helicopter? Is this even important enough for Lucifer to grace us with his presence?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: SKL on December 11, 2017, 02:25:34 AM
sorry for double post

I had this crack theory or thought that maybe one of the reasons Mephisto maneuvered Yukio into the Illuminati was to protect him (Though I think the main reason is to motivate Rin to fight the Illuminati seriously).

What I mean is Mephisto is an amazing chessmaster with a lot of influence in the Order, but his decision-making power in the Order is not without limits. To them, he's still just the Japanese Branch head with a guile tongue. He was able to sort-of convince them not to kill Rin, because at least Rin's power is more independent from Satan, and he could possibly control it and use it in the Order's favor. But if they knew about Yukio's eyes and the fact that Satan himself was behind them and controlling the flames, I don't think even Mephisto could squirm Yukio out of an execution. So in a way Yukio is far more risky to keep alive than Rin, even if it was just limited to his eyes (We saw what they can do, Satan's flame control and precision is godly).

So Mephisto knew the Order would eventually find out that Yukio was not 'just your average' human, and made plans to have him guided into the Illuminati. Like when he saw Toudou witness the eyes, he knew Toudou would report to Lucifer, and so on... 
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tandem on December 11, 2017, 06:09:34 AM
Quote
(Shima didn't call Mephisto sooner because he was unconscious, by the way)
Hai, that was my first thought too.... but that kind of seemed like a long time though. (And without another random passerby not noticing him there?) *tsk*
I review the whole event and then get some new (crack) theory :

Though it's natural to assume Shima just faint on the snow ground after Yukio's kick, but he never really said (https://cdn.mangahub.io/file/imghub/ao-no-exorcist/94/16.jpg) that.

This is what I think could happen in the morning : After Yukio's kick, Shima still had a talk with him. And then something happened (because this talk won't last several hours). It could be Illuminati coming. That's why Shima can't call Mephisto earlier.

And it's also why Yukio went to Mephisto for answer. Some Illuminati representative (for example, boss lady) pointed out he can ask Lucifer for the answers of the eye, but Yukio still couldn't decide to leave the Order so he asked Illuminati to wait for a while. He went to talk to Mephisto as the last try. Then it failed and Yukio is arrested. But he knows that the Illuminati is going to pick him up soon, and that's why he stopped and started to delay Rin's rescue in this chapter.

I'm starting to think this could be quite possible. As I said before, we're left with this mysterious 4 hours gap in-between the time Shima shows up in front of Yukio after he tried to shoot himself and Yukio reappearing in front of Mephisto/Shima calling him to warn him. Something must definitely have happened. I thought it could be related to some Yukio's plan. I don't completely buy that Yukio didn't give any chance to Shima to talk before he seized him to the floor. I have a feeling what actually happened (aside the only panel we're shown) was cut down on purpose and could be revealed later. Prolly even next chapter.

There's also that thing about Shima wanting to warn/inform Mephisto about something else right before he cut the call down. So it's possible he wanted to warn Mephisto about the Illuminati getting active over Yukio's case very soon. Or about what Lightning asked him to do (anyway, whatever Lightning asked Shima to do it has to be related to Yukio, right? 'Cause before asking Shima to do him the favor Lightning specifically asked: "You're spying on Yukio Okumura, right?").

And it could also tie up to the shooter thing because nothing can't convince me that the shooter being there and shooting his gun in THAT exact moment wasn't planned by someone beforehand. So, if it was not Yukio's plan, then it was the Illuminati's. And they're objective is easy to guess: get Mephisto to drop the barrier around the gate down. Or maybe it's all connected. Argh. Complicated.

Anyway, that's right. Yukio stating: "You came sooner than expected." sounds like he had some plans and was most likely hoping he could get away (through Shima's help) before Rin reached him so to avoid to confront him. As in: "I knew you'd come to rescue me, so I wanted to be gone before you reached me. But you didn't lose any time and so we ended up meeting."

It also made me remember about chapter 16. When Todo was buying time after the fake stealing of the eye incident.

In any case, if Yukio and Shima actually had a talk I guess it went like, Shima: "Gee, dude, why you keep acting like a moron? You have an easy way to get what you want. Just accept it and cut out the stubborn act already. You were about to give up on your life. You're so low right now to do that. At this point, why not accept help even if it comes from you enemy? Oh, but I guess you know by now the Order and Illuminati are not that different. So the choice should be easier for you now, right?"

I've been wondering why Katou even had Shima come in that time if nothing really happened, so it makes sense we are missing some dialogue that went on behind the scenes. But if Yukio agreed on some plan by Shima that the Illuminati would come bail him out, that would mean Yukio planned to get arrested or expected he would be.
I think that's too strange. There is no point for Yukio to let himself arrested. Being in prison would make him more difficult to join Illuminati, not easier.

My original (crack) theory is, Yukio just couldn't decide to join Illuminati in the morning, so he went to Mephisto as his last attempt to believe in the Order. Maybe he directly told an Illuminati recruiter that "Let me try to ask Mephisto. If I still can't get the answer then I'll give up and join you." Then Yukio is arrested. That's not what he expected. But he knows it's OK anyway because Illuminati will get him out soon. That's also why he doesn't speak a single word to Shura.

I don't think Yukio got so buddy-buddy with Shima at that time to the point of making some plans and contingencies. Otherwise he wouldn't have wrestled Shima to the ground.
So you think any additional dialogue is before Yukio's attack? I think it's likely to be after Yukio's attack. (And it matches Shima's description to Mephisto that Yukio attacked him when he started to speak.) Yukio could have some dialogue with Shima because he already controlled Shima, not a buddy-buddy dialogue ...

Moreover, I believe if Yukio could have any really agreement with Illuminati, it should be that they send some representative other than Shima or Toudou. (Boss lady is a good candidate.) They might detect Satan talking at the end of chapter 93.

Yukio also seemed a bit surprised when he saw the chopper, but not so surprised that he didn't expect they might be waiting in the wings for him (because he knows they want to recruit him bad). What I mean is, it's  not the just in time as we planned look implying that Yukio already gave them the thumbs-up.
Yukio could be surprised by the way the helicopter shows up.

There is some strange points in this chapter. Like he suddenly started to talk "You and I are so different."  I can understand what he means, but as Rin said it's too strange to talk about this at such place. Or he wants to argue with Rin. But why not directly start the juicy part "Shiro is a clone and we are created to be weapon."  Yukio's words before the helicopter shows up sounds kind of like to waste time waiting for something.

Speaking of the helicopter, I noticed it teleported through a light power, and just appeared in the air. Does that mean Lucifer could be in the helicopter? Is this even important enough for Lucifer to grace us with his presence?
It looks like an invisible technology to me. Maybe the helicopter is there for a while and it just switches to visible mode.

Yukio is important to them. I won't be surprised if Lucifer is there too. Probably they didn't come faster because they have to wait Lucifer finishing some business.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Taytronics7 on December 11, 2017, 01:44:45 PM
I've got a theory based on the main trio/jailbreaks we've had so far.

When Rin is jailed in the IK arc, Shiemi is the one who breaks him out. When Yukio is jailed, Rin is the one who frees him. Will the cycle complete itself and Shiemi eventually gets locked up and Yukio springs her out?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: SKL on December 11, 2017, 11:53:53 PM
I don't think Yukio got so buddy-buddy with Shima at that time to the point of making some plans and contingencies. Otherwise he wouldn't have wrestled Shima to the ground.
So you think any additional dialogue is before Yukio's attack? I think it's likely to be after Yukio's attack. (And it matches Shima's description to Mephisto that Yukio attacked him when he started to speak.) Yukio could have some dialogue with Shima because he already controlled Shima, not a buddy-buddy dialogue ...
After huh? I was under the impression Yukio knocked Shima out with his wrestling move in the snow and therefore there wasn't any chance of dialogue after. Because we see Shima later laying in the snow all disoriented with swirls in his eyes saying he lost track of Okumura-sensei. I assumed he woke up later with Yukio long gone then made the call to Mephisto.
Quote
not a buddy-buddy dialogue ...
that was sarcasm lol

Yukio also seemed a bit surprised when he saw the chopper, but not so surprised that he didn't expect they might be waiting in the wings for him (because he knows they want to recruit him bad). What I mean is, it's  not the just in time as we planned look implying that Yukio already gave them the thumbs-up.
Yukio could be surprised by the way the helicopter shows up.

There is some strange points in this chapter. Like he suddenly started to talk "You and I are so different."  I can understand what he means, but as Rin said it's too strange to talk about this at such place. Or he wants to argue with Rin. But why not directly start the juicy part "Shiro is a clone and we are created to be weapon."  Yukio's words before the helicopter shows up sounds kind of like to waste time waiting for something.
I didn't find Yukio's beginning talk with Rin strange at all considering all he's went through. In fact I enjoyed that he started with, 'Why am I always the one being saved', 'Why are nii-san and I so different', etc. It fits his thought process better. Stating these first to Rin shows us his main problems and why he comes to the later decision to go to Illuminati (when they come), rather than 'the Illuminati and the Order are no different' as his main reason for leaving.

We see Yukio follow along with Rin for a bit, then his steps slow and he drops the invisibility cloak. And I like that bit where Rin gives the cloak and tells Yukio the escape plans, and Yukio just stares down quietly at it...probably thinking how smoothly and flawlessly Rin is able to plan and save Yukio from discrimination of their heritage. It's in stark contrast to how everything Yukio did to 'protect his brother' in the first few arcs of the manga was all useless, because it was really Mephisto, Shura, and the exwires who climbed Rin out of the danger against him. So seeing how Rin handles it so easily when their situations are reversed is probably more salt on the wound.
This tells me Yukio was finding Rin saving him again so unbearable at that time, he would have chosen any other option..well other than being confined and poked at in the Order lol..I remember many of us were thinking Yukio would refuse to even leave the cell, so it was a little funny seeing him run out there with Rin right away. But yeah anyway, I think at that point on the bridge Yukio would have tried to leave Rin even without the chopper showing up, or he would follow Rin along on the escape grudgingly until they find lodging, and disappear into the night or something.


It looks like an invisible technology to me. Maybe the helicopter is there for a while and it just switches to visible mode.

Yukio is important to them. I won't be surprised if Lucifer is there too. Probably they didn't come faster because they have to wait Lucifer finishing some business.


Speaking of the helicopter, I noticed it teleported through a light power, and just appeared in the air. Does that mean Lucifer could be in the helicopter? Is this even important enough for Lucifer to grace us with his presence?

Looks like light power to me. We see all the light and how everyone's all squinting. Reminds me when Lucifer teleports in or one of his seraphim.

Anyway I hope Lucifer is there when shit hits the fan with Rin. But maybe Lucifer or one of his light-demon underlings can remotely teleport choppers?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tandem on December 12, 2017, 02:59:30 AM
This is a (crack) theory. Unless it is really revealed in future chapters, the story development is still more likely as what you described. It is just fun to speculate any possibility "under the surface".

I don't think Yukio got so buddy-buddy with Shima at that time to the point of making some plans and contingencies. Otherwise he wouldn't have wrestled Shima to the ground.
So you think any additional dialogue is before Yukio's attack? I think it's likely to be after Yukio's attack. (And it matches Shima's description to Mephisto that Yukio attacked him when he started to speak.) Yukio could have some dialogue with Shima because he already controlled Shima, not a buddy-buddy dialogue ...
After huh? I was under the impression Yukio knocked Shima out with his wrestling move in the snow and therefore there wasn't any chance of dialogue after. Because we see Shima later laying in the snow all disoriented with swirls in his eyes saying he lost track of Okumura-sensei. I assumed he woke up later with Yukio long gone then made the call to Mephisto.
Yes, I understand it's natural to assume Shima just faint on the snow ground after Yukio's kick, but Shima never really said that. So it could be a misleading impression Kato intends to give the reader, and in fact Yukio just confined Shima and torture asked him for the truth.

Yukio also seemed a bit surprised when he saw the chopper, but not so surprised that he didn't expect they might be waiting in the wings for him (because he knows they want to recruit him bad). What I mean is, it's  not the just in time as we planned look implying that Yukio already gave them the thumbs-up.
Yukio could be surprised by the way the helicopter shows up.

There is some strange points in this chapter. Like he suddenly started to talk "You and I are so different."  I can understand what he means, but as Rin said it's too strange to talk about this at such place. Or he wants to argue with Rin. But why not directly start the juicy part "Shiro is a clone and we are created to be weapon."  Yukio's words before the helicopter shows up sounds kind of like to waste time waiting for something.
I didn't find Yukio's beginning talk with Rin strange at all considering all he's went through. In fact I enjoyed that he started with, 'Why am I always the one being saved', 'Why are nii-san and I so different', etc. It fits his thought process better. Stating these first to Rin shows us his main problems and why he comes to the later decision to go to Illuminati (when they come), rather than 'the Illuminati and the Order are no different' as his main reason for leaving.
I understand that Yukio might make a contrast between his "protecting Rin" and Rin's current rescue, and it could be a major reason behind Yukio's action. But I didn't mean Yukio's point strange. I mean the timing he started to talk about it and the strong "discontinuity" feeling in his words strange.

Let me analyze the details. Yukio first said something like "I knew you will come."  "But it's faster than expected." and "Why do you always come help me?"  Then he jumped to this "Why are we so different?" It's a quite indirect approach, for he hadn't really explicitly touch the main point (should be more like "That's something I can't do. How are you so determined to save me?")

The helicopter appeared and Yukio started to walk away from Rin. Yukio's second part is quite different. He not only abandoned the previous topic immediately, but he also changed to a very direct way. "Let me tell you a whole bunch of confidential secret, starting from the Order created potential vessels and even Shiro is one of them ..."

So that's the discontinuous feeling here. If Yukio efficiently summarized what he learned so far because he doesn't want to spend too much time to talk, why did he talk indirectly in the first part? If Yukio is already in the mood to talk about his frustration about sibling rivalry, why did he abruptly change the topic to section 13? Or if Yukio thinks these secret is so important that he must tell Rin, why not tell the secret first and the complex feeling later?

I remember many of us were thinking Yukio would refuse to even leave the cell, so it was a little funny seeing him run out there with Rin right away.
And that's another place where this theory fit. It could be Yukio thought if he is on the ground, it is easier for the Illuminati to find where he is, so he run out without any hesitation or delay.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Cloelia on December 12, 2017, 05:57:03 PM
We see Yukio follow along with Rin for a bit, then his steps slow and he drops the invisibility cloak. And I like that bit where Rin gives the cloak and tells Yukio the escape plans, and Yukio just stares down quietly at it...probably thinking how smoothly and flawlessly Rin is able to plan and save Yukio from discrimination of their heritage. It's in stark contrast to how everything Yukio did to 'protect his brother' in the first few arcs of the manga was all useless, because it was really Mephisto, Shura, and the exwires who climbed Rin out of the danger against him. So seeing how Rin handles it so easily when their situations are reversed is probably more salt on the wound.

That's true. I didn't think about it this way.

And that's another place where this theory fit. It could be Yukio thought if he is on the ground, it is easier for the Illuminati to find where he is, so he run out without any hesitation or delay.

Keeps make me wonder. If there wasn't any "Illuminati showing up to get him" plan after Yukio got out of the building (which Yukio knew about) why did Yukio so "easily" chose to just follow Rin out of the cell? Did he really have some other plan of his if Illuminati hasn't arrived? So he prolly really knew something.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: SKL on December 14, 2017, 05:40:55 AM
This is a (crack) theory. Unless it is really revealed in future chapters, the story development is still more likely as what you described. It is just fun to speculate any possibility "under the surface".
Eh I don't think the theory is so unbelievable to be 'crack'. It's pretty believable if it's true Kato didn't write it for us to interpret it at face value. Like if it turned out Yukio already made some agreement with Shima, I wouldn't be too surprised I guess.


Quote
Let me analyze the details. Yukio first said something like "I knew you will come."  "But it's faster than expected." and "Why do you always come help me?"  Then he jumped to this "Why are we so different?" It's a quite indirect approach, for he hadn't really explicitly touch the main point (should be more like "That's something I can't do. How are you so determined to save me?")

The helicopter appeared and Yukio started to walk away from Rin. Yukio's second part is quite different. He not only abandoned the previous topic immediately, but he also changed to a very direct way. "Let me tell you a whole bunch of confidential secret, starting from the Order created potential vessels and even Shiro is one of them ..."

So that's the discontinuous feeling here. If Yukio efficiently summarized what he learned so far because he doesn't want to spend too much time to talk, why did he talk indirectly in the first part? If Yukio is already in the mood to talk about his frustration about sibling rivalry, why did he abruptly change the topic to section 13? Or if Yukio thinks these secret is so important that he must tell Rin, why not tell the secret first and the complex feeling later?
Well that scene works in both scenarios doesn't it?
Scenario 1 (face value):
Yukio upset at being saved by Rin is reluctant or is deciding not to continue to escape with Rin. Finding the situation so unbearable, he stops walking and begins to talk to Rin about 'why are we so different?', 'why am I always the one to be saved?', etc. The reason why the conversation suddenly 'abruptly' changes to 'the Order is no different from the Illuminati' is because the Illuminati chopper shows up and Shima offers welcome. Yukio thinks back to Lucifer's words about giving answers and power. Yukio has now decided. He turns to leave. Then tells Rin about the Order secrets and Shiro. So the conversation is not so abrupt really because the chopper interrupted and he resolved to join them. It would only be abrupt if he continued the conversation without the chopper showing up.

Scenario 2 (theory):
As you said: All that talk before is fluff to stall for time for the chopper showing up. When it does he reveals to Rin the details behind section 13, etc all while making it evident he is going with the Illuminati not Rin.

Keeps make me wonder. If there wasn't any "Illuminati showing up to get him" plan after Yukio got out of the building (which Yukio knew about) why did Yukio so "easily" chose to just follow Rin out of the cell? Did he really have some other plan of his if Illuminati hasn't arrived? So he prolly really knew something.

Why did Yukio rush out of the cell with Rin? Probably because he finds escaping preferable to being confined and tested on, LOL (who wouldn't?). It's been established Yukio wanted to die. He tried to kill himself, but can't. Now he is forced to keep this life. But that doesn't mean Yukio doesn't care what other things happen to him and how he will live his continued existence. And if he must live, it won't be to continue living as the weak and vulnerable person he hates. To him, that is probably worse than death.

Or like you guys say, it was all some hidden agenda that relied on Yukio's confidence in Rin busting him out of there so Illuminati can pick him up more easily. I don't discount the theory, just providing alternate viewpoints when there are any.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tandem on December 14, 2017, 04:34:18 PM
But if Yukio wants to leave the Order, isn't it more convenient to start to talk after leaving the academy? Standing on the exit of the tower, where the only way out is to pass his brother doesn't seem like a smart idea
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Cloelia on December 15, 2017, 07:50:38 PM
I had a double timeline theory of my own once and I believed in it for quite a long time. So as soon as I read this post on tumblr (https://umadosedefanta.tumblr.com/post/168544170344/i-have-to-make-a-comment-about-what-is-happenning), I instantly got interested:

Quote
I know Mephisto is someone who can read people easy like an open book, but Amaimon is right: Mephisto knows everything, like he already saw this track play infront of him and is making his own changes.

[...]Mephisto is acting like this: playing the story again, but making changes to get the ending he wants.

To this I want to add a couple things:

(https://image.ibb.co/ejtCQR/mephistosbodies.png)

This is Lightning in S13. He comes across one of Mephisto's clones. SM=Samael. But. There seems to be more than one, as he keeps counting: "Sm sm sm sm..." Now, I'm not sure if he stopped counting 'cause he's attention shifted to the Azazel's clone as soon as he took notice of it or if he was actually done counting. But we got at least 4 (or 5) Mephisto's clones.

For starters, the fact Mephisto got clones of himself it's kinda weird imo, Since...

(https://image.ibb.co/gaU2QR/mephistosbodies2.png)

Or maybe it's not. He -can- get killed, or his power can consume his body on the long run. So he may need spares of himself. And this is how this line can be interpreted:

(https://image.ibb.co/fKfFem/mephistosbodies3.png)

He prolly meant: "Since none of my spare bodies is complete yet, I can't "switch" to them." But, here's another way I like to read this:

Mephisto can actually "travel" through time. So he can actually see what happens in a timeline (therefore he "knows everything") and go back to the start point of -the same timeline- (let's take the multiple timelines thing out of this. I think one timeline is enough) and change things around so it fits his wishes. But, if he somehow screws up/someone acts in a way he couln't predict 'cause multiple changes can result in multiple different outcomes, he can "kill himself" and "reset" all. But, before doing so, he might want to transfer all the infos he got to one of his clones in some way. So, as long as the clones don't have all these infos, he can't abandon his current host.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: IsmihanA on December 17, 2017, 08:02:00 PM
I had a double timeline theory of my own once and I believed in it for quite a long time. So as soon as I read this post on tumblr (https://umadosedefanta.tumblr.com/post/168544170344/i-have-to-make-a-comment-about-what-is-happenning), I instantly got interested:

Quote
I know Mephisto is someone who can read people easy like an open book, but Amaimon is right: Mephisto knows everything, like he already saw this track play infront of him and is making his own changes.

[...]Mephisto is acting like this: playing the story again, but making changes to get the ending he wants.

To this I want to add a couple things:

(https://image.ibb.co/ejtCQR/mephistosbodies.png)

This is Lightning in S13. He comes across one of Mephisto's clones. SM=Samael. But. There seems to be more than one, as he keeps counting: "Sm sm sm sm..." Now, I'm not sure if he stopped counting 'cause he's attention shifted to the Azazel's clone as soon as he took notice of it or if he was actually done counting. But we got at least 4 (or 5) Mephisto's clones.

For starters, the fact Mephisto got clones of himself it's kinda weird imo, Since...

(https://image.ibb.co/gaU2QR/mephistosbodies2.png)

Or maybe it's not. He -can- get killed, or his power can consume his body on the long run. So he may need spares of himself. And this is how this line can be interpreted:

(https://image.ibb.co/fKfFem/mephistosbodies3.png)

He prolly meant: "Since none of my spare bodies is complete yet, I can't "switch" to them." But, here's another way I like to read this:

Mephisto can actually "travel" through time. So he can actually see what happens in a timeline (therefore he "knows everything") and go back to the start point of -the same timeline- (let's take the multiple timelines thing out of this. I think one timeline is enough) and change things around so it fits his wishes. But, if he somehow screws up/someone acts in a way he couln't predict 'cause multiple changes can result in multiple different outcomes, he can "kill himself" and "reset" all. But, before doing so, he might want to transfer all the infos he got to one of his clones in some way. So, as long as the clones don't have all these infos, he can't abandon his current host.

I don't know if I understood it correctly ( in the first impression this theory seems to me extremely interesting...and I've got tangled in it lol because this isn't entirely about chapter 96, where I still stubbornly reject what happened there and my pierced heart is still burning on the road full of trucks ) but what you mean is that on this one timeline Mephy is able to travel in all directions and adapting this line to his vision and wishes but when unexpected circumstances arise, then he kills himself and this timeline is automatically reset, right? So for example in chapter 94, assuming that he didn't know about this attack (what would come up to an unexpected circumstance) if this bullet turned out to be more dangerous and hypothetically killed him, then everything would happen again (and also Yukio wouldn't have been arrested etc.) ?
And what do you mean about this start point?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Cloelia on December 17, 2017, 10:20:10 PM
^ Obviously, we're talking about a theory.  And I'm not that good at explaining. I thrown a couple basics but if I had to explain in detail, I'd totally be at a loss (also 'cause I'm not sure about them myself). Hehe. But I'll try.

What I meant is that Mephisto already "lived" through the current timeline so he got a "basic" knowledge of the events. Through starting again from a specific point, he can use that knowledge to alterate events around. But if a change will 'cause a certain consequence, he can't know for sure what will happen after that. So he may need to "reset" the timeline to a start point (which I can't tell what could be. The birth of the twins? Or somewhere closer as when Rin awakes his demonic power? I used the expression "start point" to say that he gotta had a point where he'd start manipulating things for the first time). And to reset the timeline and go back to that point, I thought he may need to kill himself 'cause there are all these clones of him he got hidden in S13 and I thought this could be a use for them.

Prolly what happened in chapter 94 is one of those events that "slipped" from his control. He didn't expect to be actually shot and I consider this one of the consequences he didn't "calculate" before hand 'cause he'd already change previous events that much he's already at a stage he can't exactly predict what will happen next for certain. I have trouble explaining this part myself (and prolly I had too if I explained it in my own language too, lol)

All in all, even if it's nothing as close to this, I think something remotely like that could be possible in the manga. Mephisto is the King of space and time. And I think it's almost certain he can see events somehow and do something to change them.

Another more relatable theory is: Mephisto can pick at a specific event "in real time" and through his power see what will happen next (right after it or even over). Knowing the "consequences" of that event he can decide what to do before that event happens by changing things. This is even harder to explain so I'll put an example:

(https://image.ibb.co/hHhqEm/mephistospower.png)

This is Mephisto in chapter 44. He's all rambling-y and all that in this chapter. At some point, he decides to "check" on a specific event. Rin and Godain in the regular school classroom. He watches their interaction and concludes:

(https://image.ibb.co/k2SkfR/mephistospower2.png)

He looks thoughtful, as he's pondering "what to do about this event". And he spefically comments: "So that's how it is.". The impression I got the first time I saw these panels is that Mephisto observed Rin's and Godain's conversation, picked at the "consequences" this episode will 'cause in the future using his power and commented "So that's how it is." as in "So that's what this "conversation" will bring to." So, he prolly did something (which I can't tell we've been shown) to prevent/alter THAT event he "foresaw".

I'm not so sure about this part too anymore. But I used this example to try and explain how I roughly think Mephisto's power works.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: IsmihanA on December 18, 2017, 06:40:13 PM
^ Thank you very much for this explanation - I translated this into my language and now I’m gradually processing and analyze it several times but now it seems to be more clear. I don't know why but I turned around this start point and the first option you mentioned, that is, the birth of twins somehow...naturally fitted me to be this point. It is like...that from this moment practically everything started (using this term, of course, to a general extent, adding ,,for now" for safety lol), a breakthrough moment. What I'm going to write now may not be very important and it will be my stupid considerations but continuing the topic and referring to this theory, in my opinion the birth of twins meets all the conditions of being the right start point, with consequences and general influence. But how would it be if this point was located even earlier? Or would it be a moving point? Something on the principle of dividing this time line into particular periods, here, events involving a lot of time ahead of the main ones, for example, when The Demon Kings split into two different factions. I mean, using this theory even further back. Alright, I have no idea what I'm writing, so it's enough.

I understood the second theory better than the first one hah. And I feel that ( intuition: on) here his expression can be a sign that it isn't just a theory but even one of the main mechanisms so in this case it will be different with caution in relation to AnE and I'll put it in the back of my head, waiting for ( I hope) a direct confirmation of this.

Anyway, very nice point of view ^^


Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Taytronics7 on December 22, 2017, 05:07:12 PM
New theory

What if the reason Toudou wanted Karura to possess him was because he eventually will betray Lucifer, try to consume Satan's heart and gain his power? Karura is a high level fire demon with powerful regeneration, so Toudou would need it to make his body get used to high level fire powers and powerful regeneration in order to be able to house Satan's heart in his body. Maybe it would also explain part of his interest in Yukio? That expression he makes in chapter 80 made me question whether or not he's truly loyal to Lucifer and his plan.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tandem on December 22, 2017, 11:41:37 PM
New theory

What if the reason Toudou wanted Karura to possess him was because he eventually will betray Lucifer, try to consume Satan's heart and gain his power? Karura is a high level fire demon with powerful regeneration, so Toudou would need it to make his body get used to high level fire powers and powerful regeneration in order to be able to house Satan's heart in his body. Maybe it would also explain part of his interest in Yukio? That expression he makes in chapter 80 made me question whether or not he's truly loyal to Lucifer and his plan.
Maybe Toudou's ultimate goal is to eat Satan? I mean, Satan is still a demon right? So theoretically it can be eaten by demon eaters.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Madow on December 23, 2017, 01:53:35 PM
The difference in power levels are just way too high. Mephisto by himself can destroy the planet indirectly as can Lucifer in his dying state. Satan is an entirely different beast from them so just imagine his scale of strength. I could see him trying to replace Yukios eyes with his own but then couldn't Satan just leave the eyes? Or would he be fine with it since he can still see to Assiah and now has a direct communication to Lucifer?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Cloelia on December 28, 2017, 08:45:50 PM
What if we're never gonna know what Yukio's eyes power is really about 'cause Kato-sama herself will not be able to come up with a way to tie ALL the hints she gave us here and there together in a logic way and will choose to leave it a secret?

I can even see Lucifer denying Yukio any anwer, Yukio getting mad at him and Lucifer trying to justify himself: "Even the author of this story doesn't know so how am -I- supposed to?"
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: SKL on December 29, 2017, 03:54:36 AM
^
Very funny crack theory.
Katou: I still don't know what I should do with Yukio's powers, so I'll drag it out out for 67 chapters until I figure something out.

But. Please no.
It's one of the major things in the manga I want answers for, so Katou better not drag it out for another 20 chapters or something. Settle the matter. Then we can finally dust ourselves off and move on to other things.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Cloelia on January 04, 2018, 05:56:33 PM
First crack theory after chapter 97.

I was staring at Rin's panel where he's "spreading" all the flames. Aside the prominent large flame coming out of his chest (hinting that his demonic heart is about to come out of it?) his skin is indeed starting to necrotize (as someone pointed out too). Well, I was thinking. This is like what happened to Izumo during her arc. So I picked chapter 60-61 and read 'em again.

Izumo was necrotizing 'cause she couldn't handle Nine Tails, an high-level demon (as explained by Yukio). So, what I get is that necrotizing is like a body's "reaction" to a possession it can't handle. I guess this is somehow what's happening to Rin right now. He can't handle that much flame power (or whatever it is) and his body it's necrotizing as a result.

Or there could be another esplanation. Also in chapter 60, Gedouin tells Izumo "Don't resist. Give yourself to Nine tails." I think it could mean Rin's necrotizing 'cause he's struggling to "resist" to the flame power and if he will "surrender" to it, he'll stop necrotizing. But he will be completely "possessed" by it (the flame power). And, also in chapter 60, Gedouin mentions that "This device (the mask) will force the possession to take hold. But this procedure is for a -chosen one- fortified by the -elixir-."

Okay, I got some weird ideas out of this. What if the Illuminati are planning to use the elixir on Rin to force him to get possessed by Satan? (now that we know Satan wants to use him as a vessel). I can think that the reason Mephisto trained Rin to handle and control the flame was all part of a plan to "boost" his compatibility and tolerance of Satan's possession. Just like Izumo needed a certain "percentage of compatibility" with Nine Tails to get it to successfully possess her.

Also, what if this is all those chosen ones and/or high-level demons are needed for? To create an elixir strong enough to boost Rin's compatibilty with Satan's possession. In chapter 80, Lucifer stated "It may become necessary to prepare Father's body with the materials we already have." If Satan's willing to possess Rin, why the need to make him another body? Maybe in case even Rin will not be able to handle him?

But if I read Lucifer line in another way: "It may become necessary to modify/alter Rin's body with the materials we already have (by creating an elixir though them)".

Aaaaalso, on another note, if this is gonna go the way I think, I can already picture the anime's counterpart where Rin's tied to a cross thing spitting blood to open the Gate and... yup, Yukio offering to take his place. What I see in the manga is: Rin will be injected the elixir but it won't go that smoothly. So Yukio (also willing to grasp this chance for his own power-seeking puposes) may offer himself on his stead. But the one reason I can't actually see this is that'd be a repeat of Izumo's mother offering herself on her daughter stead and so on.

Anyway. Honestly, I can't remember if it was ever mentioned how the Illuminati make that elixir in the first place. I should read those chapters again, I guess.

Edit: on second thought, I was thinking, what if the Illuminati could choose to use Yukio as a vessel for Satan in case Rin won't be able to sustain the possession since if the elixir, when injected, can potentially kill the subject, while Yukio is "protected" by Satan?

And, to add to this: Lucifer said it was important that Yukio chose to join them on his own free will. Maybe he meant it was important since if Yukio is willing to cooperate that'd make it easier for him to accept/endure a possession unlike Rin who'd (I guess) refuse to accept it (willingly).
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Kittykat on January 04, 2018, 11:42:09 PM
First crack theory after chapter 97.

I was staring at Rin's panel where he's "spreading" all the flames. Aside the prominent large flame coming out of his chest (hinting that his demonic heart is about to come out of it?) his skin is indeed starting to necrotize (as someone pointed out too). Well, I was thinking. This is like what happened to Izumo during her arc. So I picked chapter 60-61 and read 'em again.

Izumo was necrotizing 'cause she couldn't handle Nine Tails, an high-level demon (as explained by Yukio). So, what I get is that necrotizing is like a body's "reaction" to a possession it can't handle. I guess this is somehow what's happening to Rin right now. He can't handle that much flame power (or whatever it is) and his body it's necrotizing as a result.

Or there could be another esplanation. Also in chapter 60, Gedouin tells Izumo "Don't resist. Give yourself to Nine tails." I think it could mean Rin's necrotizing 'cause he's struggling to "resist" to the flame power and if he will "surrender" to it, he'll stop necrotizing. But he will be completely "possessed" by it (the flame power). And, also in chapter 60, Gedouin mentions that "This device (the mask) will force the possession to take hold. But this procedure is for a -chosen one- fortified by the -elixir-."

Okay, I got some weird ideas out of this. What if the Illuminati are planning to use the elixir on Rin to force him to get possessed by Satan? (now that we know Satan wants to use him as a vessel). I can think that the reason Mephisto trained Rin to handle and control the flame was all part of a plan to "boost" his compatibility and tolerance of Satan's possession. Just like Izumo needed a certain "percentage of compatibility" with Nine Tails to get it to successfully possess her.

Also, what if this is all those chosen ones and/or high-level demons are needed for? To create an elixir strong enough to boost Rin's compatibilty with Satan's possession. In chapter 80, Lucifer stated "It may become necessary to prepare Father's body with the materials we already have." If Satan's willing to possess Rin, why the need to make him another body? Maybe in case even Rin will not be able to handle him?

But if I read Lucifer line in another way: "It may become necessary to modify/alter Rin's body with the materials we already have (by creating an elixir though them)".

Aaaaalso, on another note, if this is gonna go the way I think, I can already picture the anime's counterpart where Rin's tied to a cross thing spitting blood to open the Gate and... yup, Yukio offering to take his place. What I see in the manga is: Rin will be injected the elixir but it won't go that smoothly. So Yukio (also willing to grasp this chance for his own power-seeking puposes) may offer himself on his stead. But the one reason I can't actually see this is that'd be a repeat of Izumo's mother offering herself on her daughter stead and so on.

Anyway. Honestly, I can't remember if it was ever mentioned how the Illuminati make that elixir in the first place. I should read those chapters again, I guess.

Edit: on second thought, I was thinking, what if the Illuminati could choose to use Yukio as a vessel for Satan in case Rin won't be able to sustain the possession since if the elixir, when injected, can potentially kill the subject, while Yukio is "protected" by Satan?

And, to add to this: Lucifer said it was important that Yukio chose to join them on his own free will. Maybe he meant it was important since if Yukio is willing to cooperate that'd make it easier for him to accept/endure a possession unlike Rin who'd (I guess) refuse to accept it (willingly).

I mentioned Rin’s predicament as the vessel in an earlier post, mentioning that Satan still desired him to be the vessel, and that Yukio was going to sacrifice himself in his brother’s stead. The cross scene I think is still going to happen, but it will be a while for us to get there. It would be a wackier theory that Yuri is still alive, kept alive like Izumo’s mother, and is the one who tells Yukio the truth—why she pursued to keep the babies to raise instead of getting rid of them as the Order probably demanded her to do (which kind of makes me scratch my head if its the Vatican’s order...Catholicism and all, but Satan’s children etc) and her reasoning might be what’s needed to kick Yukio in the butt and make him realize what he has. Of course... like I said, that would be a crack theory that would make more sense to me if it hangs tight to the anime. I didn’t like Satan telling him the truth and have that overtone of falling in love. I would understand it better if she was trying to teach him what human life meant instead, and he became obsessed with having that chance of life.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: SKL on January 05, 2018, 06:39:40 AM
Cloelia, I enjoy reading your thoughts and am glad you won't drop the manga. I like how emotionally charged and analytical your writing is.

Back to topic.
Yeah these aren't even crack theories at this point.
Before some of us rationalized Lucifer not needing Rin(or Yukio) as possession bodies for Satan, since he didn't try to kidnap either, but recruit (he kind of offered an invite to Rin as well that one time). Also we thought they might 'construct' a body using those immortal demons, or that they would use the info for a clone most similar to AZ-05 (Satan's previous vessel) since the file is 'suspiciously' missing. I think it was the wording in one of those chapters that made me think of the possibilities.

I only hoped it wasn't possible for Satan to possess Rin because Rin has his own demon heart that technically possesses him already. Apparently it is possible. Damn. Well now that I think about it, the fact that Rin's heart(demon power source) is blue flames that originally came from Satan, means it maybe can serve as an access point for Satan to possess.
Yukio, a grey area, seemed more likely to be possessed. It happened in the anime too.

So yes I can definitely see a route where Rin is plan(A) for Satan and Yukio plan(B)...and possibly a test tube clone plan(C). Satan obviously favors the stronger one who has flames and can tank them well (or is being tempered too). I'm guessing he won't even acknowledge Yukio since he was so weak and maybe just wanted to keep him alive as a spy-glass. But I kind of think while he disregards him, he is still curious and keeping up the observations. He might appreciate Yukio's cold demonic brutality and cunning we all know he has. The unknown factor is Yukio's strange direct link with Satan that's not quite a possession.

Rin looks like he could really use the elixir now, but I think maybe his body can barely manage to adjust without it with more severe training. Yukio would need it more though I think. Plus he has a more direct access being in the Illuminati, and I think it's one of Lucifer's methods to help him get stronger: whether for Yukio's own use of flames to do Illuminati handiwork, or to adjust his body as a potential vessel for Satan as well. All good things for Lucifer. Yukio volunteering himself as a vessel as a substitute for Rin is a possibility, or Yukio just plain being easier to guide into that position is also a possibility.

Another thing is, if Lucifer gives Yukio what he gave Toudou and the other demon eaters, will that make Yukio a demon eater of Satan? That would be crazy and more cracky of a theory if say, Yukio had the potential to take over Satan completely. Well the difference between Yukio and the demon eaters is Yukio already has a link to Satan, while the others didn't and just hunted down the immortal demons of their choice. At the very least it would make him handle the flames better I think.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Cloelia on January 05, 2018, 04:38:30 PM
Cloelia, I enjoy reading your thoughts and am glad you won't drop the manga. I like how emotionally charged and analytical your writing is.

(Thank you, even if I'm always wrong about my theories *sighs*)

I only hoped it wasn't possible for Satan to possess Rin because Rin has his own demon heart that technically possesses him already. Apparently it is possible. Damn. Well now that I think about it, the fact that Rin's heart(demon power source) is blue flames that originally came from Satan, means it maybe can serve as an access point for Satan to possess.

I got a few more thoughts about this and what I said earlier.

(https://image.ibb.co/kpjbcG/thoughts.png)

It's not certain yet, but it really looks like Rin's demonic heart it's about to come out of his chest. Now, we talked over and over about Rin's demonic heart possibily been in Gehenna and all that. Now, staring at chapter 97 pic, makes me wonder if Rin's -demonic heart- was in fact inside of Rin (in Assiah) all along. But than I remembered about the thing of the sword and its acting like a gate. BUT what Amaimon said before (at least in the Viz's translations) is that Rin's POWER is in Gehenna. Amaimon never mentioned Rin's demonic heart. So the sword should serve to put in contact Rin with -his power-, not -his demonic heart-. If that's the case, then Rin's demonic heart was prolly really inside of Rin.

Then, there's this baloon speech I noticed while looking for the Amaimon's demonic heart panel. Mephisto uses these words: "Going overboard will destroy your host body. Then you couldn't stay in Assiah." So, I looked back at chapter 97: Rin's skin is starting to necrotize as his chest is sprouting flames (to release his demonic heart out of it(?)).

And I had this idea: the Artificial Gehenna Gate is still opening, there, in Russia. And this, as we said, was also part of Satan's plan in chapter 1: to open the gate, break the Koma sword and throw Rin inside of the gate. I'm not sure if I can add more thoughts about Mephisto's line since Amaimon and Rin are, essentially, two different cases. Amaimon got a host body, while Rin is "born" with his body. So I'm gonna skip this part.

But, out of all this, I got another theory. What if now that Rin's demonic heart should (I guess) separate from his body that would make Rin an "empty" shell? Maybe this is exactly what Satan is planning for. He wanted to break the sword to break the "seal" that ALSO kept Rin's heart inside of his body. Well, after all, as soon as the sword broke Rin didn't go berserk, but (after a few minutes) all he did was starting to necrotize and sprouting flames from his chest (and his body), so I guess if Rin's demonic heart will indeed come out from his chest, this should clearly be connected to the sword breaking.

And, once Rin's demonic heart will be out of him, Rin would be left "empty" BUT, after all the training with his flame power over the months, he'll be capable to sustain an even stronger flame power (Satan's) along with his (Satan's) demonic heart (if he got one?). So this is what Satan could mean by wanting to make Rin a vessel for himself? This is why Mephisto worked hard to train Rin for?

Yukio, a grey area, seemed more likely to be possessed. It happened in the anime too.

Sometimes, Kato-sama picked events from the anime and switched roles around. Like when in the anime it's Rin asking Shiro about their parents and in the manga is Yukio, so I would even expect/wouldn't be surprised if Kato-sama chose to switch roles in this case too.

He might appreciate Yukio's cold demonic brutality and cunning we all know he has. The unknown factor is Yukio's strange direct link with Satan that's not quite a possession.

Rin looks like he could really use the elixir now, but I think maybe his body can barely manage to adjust without it with more severe training. Yukio would need it more though I think. Plus he has a more direct access being in the Illuminati, and I think it's one of Lucifer's methods to help him get stronger: whether for Yukio's own use of flames to do Illuminati handiwork, or to adjust his body as a potential vessel for Satan as well. All good things for Lucifer. Yukio volunteering himself as a vessel as a substitute for Rin is a possibility, or Yukio just plain being easier to guide into that position is also a possibility.

Another thing is, if Lucifer gives Yukio what he gave Toudou and the other demon eaters, will that make Yukio a demon eater of Satan? That would be crazy and more cracky of a theory if say, Yukio had the potential to take over Satan completely. Well the difference between Yukio and the demon eaters is Yukio already has a link to Satan, while the others didn't and just hunted down the immortal demons of their choice. At the very least it would make him handle the flames better I think.

Honestly, I'm starting to think (I think too much, I know) this whole thing could be a lot more complicated. Based on what the manga stated/kept on stating/showed/proved/insisted on proving so far: Yukio's 100% human. He's not possessed, he's never been and even now HE's not possessed (unless, prolly just his eyes but there's no proof yet).

Yukio is the human son of a human (Yuri Egin (at least for as far as we know she was human. Clone or not)) and another (enhanced) human (Goro, subject 005). Yukio is 100% human. While, about Rin, my headcanon is that at the moment of conception, the same applied to him too. And, when the flame "gene" came into play, it changed things around (for Rin). Like, it "mixed up" and converted part (prolly 50% since he's considered "half" demon, but) of his human genetic heritage into a demonic one. Included his demonic physical traits like ears, teeth and tail (which were later "concealed" by the Koma sword seal alongiside his access to his flame power and/or even his demonic heart or something like that).

But, back to Yukio's case. I'm not sure if this can count as an evidence but I think if what Shiro stated it's true and Yukio (always based on Viz's translation) "couldn't BEAR it ('cause he was underweight)" maybe that means Yukio (he himself as a whole person) was born "unable" to bear a possession (and, I mean, not only for a physical matter (like he was underweight) which -I- consider something Shiro may have come up with to simplify his explanation to Rin). He just was born "unable" to bear any kind of possession.

To add to this, in chapter 86 Mephisto stated, when talking about the clones, this particular fact: "No matter how excellent the bodies were, they couldn't become possession bodies." I never thought about this. Maybe the products of cloning experiments can get this kinda "side effect". The fact that "possession bodies" exist could mean there could also exist "NOT possession bodies". Bodies essentially UNABLE to be possessed. And I thought that this could be Yukio's case. I may be wrong about this part too 'cause maybe what Mephisto actually meant was: "They couldn't become possession bodies (for the Baal/strong enough to sustain a Baal for a lot of time)"

Anyway, what I mean is: my feeling is that Yukio could NEVER really be possessed by a demon. Satan or any other kind. Also, we wondered in the past with all the shet Yukio's gone throughout his life (the stress/the frustration/his fears and so on) it's plain weird no demon ever tried to possess him during his entire life. Shura herself stated a demon could take advantage of such things. But it never happened to Yukio. Aside his eyes. Which I already said what I think about (he may have inherited them from his human father and could be the ONLY part of his body actually able to bear possession ('cause all we've seen about that Goro guy so far are only his Satan-shaped eyes and etc etc), but I'm gonna wait on Lucifer for more infos (if he -hopefully- will finally feel like sharing some)).

So, in conclusion, I don't think Yukio himself (his whole body) could ever be used as a vessel for Satan (and I somehow think this is why Satan doesn't even give a crap about him and all that and he doesn't even consider Yukio as an "option" or "plan B vessel" (or even a son (well, if Yukio is 100% son of his human father, Satan's not wrong, after all)). Unless, the elixir could come into play and do something about this "problem" and turn Yukio's body into a "possession body".
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Kittykat on January 05, 2018, 05:26:19 PM
^I think Mephisto meant that they couldn’t be prime bodies because they developed personalities which included the means to fight the possession. If we go with the theory that necrotization happens because they fight the possession, this line makes sense.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tandem on January 06, 2018, 01:20:59 AM
^ note their objective to establish section 13 is not to find a body to possess, but it's to find the body that can endure the demon kings' power so they don't have to change body frequently. So they are less likely talking about whether they can possess it.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Kittykat on January 06, 2018, 01:26:39 AM
^ note their objective to establish section 13 is not to find a body to possess, but it's to find the body that can endure the demon kings' power so they don't have to change body frequently. So they are less likely talking about whether they can possess it.

They can’t exist in Assiah without possessing something. Yes, they were trying to create a stable body for themselves. However, personalities developed making it difficult to have the body which caused them to try something else, so they turned to enhancing humans to be able to withstand the possession.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tandem on January 06, 2018, 02:37:19 AM
^ note their objective to establish section 13 is not to find a body to possess, but it's to find the body that can endure the demon kings' power so they don't have to change body frequently. So they are less likely talking about whether they can possess it.

They can’t exist in Assiah without possessing something. Yes, they were trying to create a stable body for themselves. However, personalities developed making it difficult to have the body which caused them to try something else, so they turned to enhancing humans to be able to withstand the possession.
Note Lucifer had to change body at the time of demon king meeting (about 100 years ago), but they didn't have a proper body prepared for him until blue night. So I'm pretty sure Lucifer changed his body several times after the meeting.

I think the problem here is, it's not that difficult to find a person among 7 billion people that they can successfully possess. Many people has weak mind after all. So I think they can also possess most experimented body in section 13 regardless they developed personalities or not. But these body still collapse after possessing because they are not perfect copy. The difficulty in the experiment is to find a sustainable body, not to find a possessable body.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Kittykat on January 06, 2018, 02:56:13 AM
^ note their objective to establish section 13 is not to find a body to possess, but it's to find the body that can endure the demon kings' power so they don't have to change body frequently. So they are less likely talking about whether they can possess it.

They can’t exist in Assiah without possessing something. Yes, they were trying to create a stable body for themselves. However, personalities developed making it difficult to have the body which caused them to try something else, so they turned to enhancing humans to be able to withstand the possession.
Note Lucifer had to change body at the time of demon king meeting (about 100 years ago), but they didn't have a proper body prepared for him until blue night. So I'm pretty sure Lucifer changed his body several times after the meeting.

I think the problem here is, it's not that difficult to find a person among 7 billion people that they can successfully possess. Many people has weak mind after all. So I think they can also possess most experimented body in section 13 regardless they developed personalities or not. But these body still collapse after possessing because they are not perfect copy. The difficulty in the experiment is to find a sustainable body, not to find a possessable body.

Yes. It tells you Lucifer has ten years before a body collapses on him. He’s tired of the pain and is jealous of how Mephisto can reverse the effects of necrosis on the body he possesses. They are looking to create one that sustains them long enough to where they no longer feel that pain anymore—even better if it lasts forever, but they are still possessing something whether it is a naturally born-Assiah body or a created one. I’m sure they are incredibly selective over the people they possess too in terms of the Assiah natives they have to choose, so it couldn’t be any Tom, Melissa, Ashley, or Joan. At least Mephisto gives me that vibe. He has to find the right kind of weirdo.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: SKL on January 06, 2018, 08:38:59 AM
(click to show/hide)
Hmm I think this goes back to what's the definition of a human and demon in this manga. Here Rin is a ‘half demon half human hybrid’. And often, he's just plain called a 'demon'. But that's a shortened definition. I remember way back in the mangafox forums someone said Rin was 100% demon and 100% human. That really stuck with me since then. I'll go back to this in a bit.

In the manga, we've seen numerous variations of what we could call a 'demon'. But many of those called 'demons' are abbreviated terms for what they really are.

Examples of what's called a demon
-Demons with vessels in Assiah are called simply 'demons' for short. Unless it becomes important to distinguish, it's not noted every time that a 'coal tar' is a demon+dust body or the Mephisto we know here is actually the King of Time+his human vessel.

-Toudou is called a demon. But really he is a human possessed by a demon, and thus has become 'demonized'. The big difference here is that he has forced the demon to possess him and maintains complete control.

However. this is the basest definition of what a demon actually is: the 'energy entities/concepts' that live in or are born in Gehenna. They don't even have proper consciousness or sense of selves until they can form one on their first visit to Assiah (remember what happened with Satan).

When the demon goes to Assiah it's too much effort to always call it 'a demon with a vessel', so the whole packaged gets shortened to just 'demon'. That's why I call it a shortened term. Normally it doesn’t matter in context and is pointless semantics until you go down to an existence like Rin.

Rin has a fully realized heart or 'energy entity' in Gehenna. Based off of what the base definition of what a demon actually is, you could therefore say the heart is 100% a demon. I thought it was interesting this chapter (97) that Satan made the distinction of Rin's body. He called it his 'human body'. Therefore he is 100% human too. It's his 100% demon heart possessing/linked to him is what makes Rin any different from other humans.

About half/demon and mixed breed procreation , I have this from an earlier post:
I think in this theory, the key to connecting the human procreation to the demon heart procreation is establishing the link between the two to create the offspring. To do that the demon parent must be possessing an Assiah vessel. Thus after mutating some genes, creates an inheritable link between that demon type to that body type (or genes). So the offspring will be: a physical baby created the classic way in Assiah, a demon heart created via the 'splitting off' way in Gehenna, and the link between the two that makes that demon-type and that body-type compatible. I call the link 'inheritable', because thus forth the blood can be diluted until eventually (i don't know when) the offspring have no power at all created in Gehenna (no demon heart). But the link takes more time to be diluted completely, and that's when you get humans like Izumo's family who aren't 'demon' anymore but still have some inherited link that makes their bodies compatible to like-demons in Gehenna. For instance the ninetails, or their ability as tamers to bond with the smaller fox gods.

Let's get to Yukio now. Because it gets even more complicated, especially since we still don't know exactly what’s  going on with him so a lot of it is still speculation.

Like Rin, Yukio also has a 100% human body. An obvious thing to say in most cases, but here it needs to be said. Because until recently Yukio had nothing coming from Gehenna (in other words a demon: power entity from Gehenna), you could have safely considered him just that. A human and nothing else.
Now what would make Yukio anything more than a human? It would be when he gets any sort of demon power possessing his human body. A Satan-possessed Yukio would what we would call a demon based on what’s termed in the manga (shortened terms described earlier). Again pretty obvious. Until we get to the question of whether he ‘inherited’ anything from Satan.
The rest here is just speculation.

In my opinion from evidence we’ve seen so far. I think it’s a yes and no. Yukio’s eyes have a mysterious direct link to Satan. In other words his connection does not go to an individual fully-realized heart like Rin’s does, it goes to Satan. Why? Well if the splitting off theory is true, Rin’s demon heart was born from Satan, but split off and became an independent entity, thus making a separate demon and why Rin is 100% demon as well because of his heart. What could have happened with Yukio is that he got the ‘inheritable link’ from Satan, but unlike Rin, never ‘split off’ from Satan and became his own demon. This could have happened because of his weak body not tolerating it or some shenanigans done to him by Mephisto or some other during his birth. Or it could be both too. Like maybe a scenario that his body was too weak, and it’s not that the power turned away from him and left, but would have killed him if Mephisto or Shiro or somebody could prevent that, and so they cut him off somehow all the way down to his eye(s). Who knows really. But if this is all true, it means Yukio is still attached to Satan and his demon power source is Satan. Right now it looks like the control is all Satan’s, but it’s looking possible based off of Lucifer’s words that he can also drive the flames eventually. Could he ever split off from Satan and become his own demon? Maybe. Or maybe it’s permanent and he can’t.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Cloelia on January 06, 2018, 02:56:16 PM
^ Woah, I like all these thoughts. Things are so complicated and we got so lil info to analyze. Somehow I think that finding out what exactly Yukio's eyes are could help understand a bit more of this.

Just a quick thought. Another tiny lil ray of hope I can think of which could help the twins get close, in the future, despite all, is the "telepathy" connection they manifested back in chapter 30. I mean, I REALLY HOPE this was not something completely random/an isolated case/a detail Kato-sama forgot about. I still hope there could be more behind that and that it'll play a role in the future.

I don't care how as long as it'll mean the twins could share some connection and that it could be connected to their powers. It could force them to work together to make the best out of this ability if it'd serve to some purpose. Such as "amplify" their powers and I even want to drag an anime reference (the fact that their demonic powers seemed connected and could produce some sort of phoenix-shaped flame move) into this.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: earthforge on January 06, 2018, 03:52:06 PM
The first thing I thought reading ch 97 at the scene where Satan talks to Rin was, "is Satan parasitizing Yukio's eyes and mental link to Rin?" Like, remember the dekalp and Shiemi's legs? Nobody except Rin and Yukio seem able to hear Satan, and Satan can't contact Rin directly. He even says that they can only talk because of Yukio.

There's also that mysterious connection to Azazel. That nephilim connection has got to count for something.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Cloelia on January 06, 2018, 04:06:09 PM
The first thing I thought reading ch 97 at the scene where Satan talks to Rin was, "is Satan parasitizing Yukio's eyes and mental link to Rin?" Like, remember the dekalp and Shiemi's legs? Nobody except Rin and Yukio seem able to hear Satan, and Satan can't contact Rin directly. He even says that they can only talk because of Yukio.

There's also that mysterious connection to Azazel. That nephilim connection has got to count for something.

Seems possible. Or there wouldn't be any need to send Amaimon in and out of Gehenna as a messenger. Or Lucifer and Mephisto could get in contact with Satan any time they wanted. So, yeah, I think it's really possible. So I think it's also possible Yukio and Rin actually got a "telepathy" connection (like a channel or a mental link, as you said) and prolly Satan is using that to communicate with Rin (and he couldn't do it before because Rin was never that close/Satan still didn't have a strong control over Yukio's eyes/mind/whatever).

So, wait, then do you think it's possible the first time Rin heard Yukio that connection "unlocked" but Satan took over it the moment after so they (Yukio and Rin) weren't able to communicate anymore?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Kittykat on January 06, 2018, 04:50:12 PM
The first thing I thought reading ch 97 at the scene where Satan talks to Rin was, "is Satan parasitizing Yukio's eyes and mental link to Rin?" Like, remember the dekalp and Shiemi's legs? Nobody except Rin and Yukio seem able to hear Satan, and Satan can't contact Rin directly. He even says that they can only talk because of Yukio.

There's also that mysterious connection to Azazel. That nephilim connection has got to count for something.

Seems possible. Or there wouldn't be any need to send Amaimon in and out of Gehenna as a messenger. Or Lucifer and Mephisto could get in contact with Satan any time they wanted. So, yeah, I think it's really possible. So I think it's also possible Yukio and Rin actually got a "telepathy" connection (like a channel or a mental link, as you said) and prolly Satan is using that to communicate with Rin (and he couldn't do it before because Rin was never that close/Satan still didn't have a strong control over Yukio's eyes/mind/whatever).

So, wait, then do you think it's possible the first time Rin heard Yukio that connection "unlocked" but Satan took over it the moment after so they (Yukio and Rin) weren't able to communicate anymore?

But doesn’t Rin hear demons anyway? I.e. the naberius and Kuro. The higher level demons like Ucchusma, the whale, and Karara had shown that people could hear them. Are we sure that no one else could hear Satan other than Amaimon and the twins?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: SKL on January 06, 2018, 09:57:39 PM
^ Woah, I like all these thoughts. Things are so complicated and we got so lil info to analyze. Somehow I think that finding out what exactly Yukio's eyes are could help understand a bit more of this.
Yeah..hmm. There was that theory that somehow Yukio's eye(s) was transplanted from the Satan-possessed AZ-05 into the baby Yukio for some crazy reason. That's from Toudou's line 'those aren't your eyes'. That would be taking it to the most literal sense. Or he just meant what we see now: Yukio has Satan's flame through his eyes. When you look into his eyes, like Toudou and Lucifer did, you can see Satan looking back at you. So you can say those are Satan's eyes in that sense too. Remember the 'abyss looking gazing at you' line from Mephisto? Could be either case I guess.

One thing to note. Whether Yukio was born with the link in his eyes or whether they were transplanted, it's insane amount of flames they are able to tank alone. I have yet to see any ill effects like Yukio's eyes hurting or necrotizing. We've yet to find their limit. So far we've seen a massive flaming crater, vaporizing an oncoming bullet at point-blank, and snapping Koumaken like twig and blowing Rin back.
As of now, it looks like Satan really is blocked from the rest of his body for some mysterious reason. Doesn't even look like he can even move the eye. No. His control is limited to purely the flames through one small point in Yukio's left eye (though looks like the flames can spread to the right, I wonder why)

Quote
Just a quick thought. Another tiny lil ray of hope I can think of which could help the twins get close, in the future, despite all, is the "telepathy" connection they manifested back in chapter 30. I mean, I REALLY HOPE this was not something completely random/an isolated case/a detail Kato-sama forgot about. I still hope there could be more behind that and that it'll play a role in the future.

I don't care how as long as it'll mean the twins could share some connection and that it could be connected to their powers. It could force them to work together to make the best out of this ability if it'd serve to some purpose. Such as "amplify" their powers and I even want to drag an anime reference (the fact that their demonic powers seemed connected and could produce some sort of phoenix-shaped flame move) into this.
100% there with you. It's one of the things I really want see by the end too.

There's also that mysterious connection to Azazel. That nephilim connection has got to count for something.
Oh yes I wanted to mention that too. I wonder how it can come into play. I don't know too much about the properties of Azazel's power. He's the King of Air and Spirits, and it was from his bloodline that came the most successful clone vessel to date. Is there some importance to the properties of his power over the other Kings that make strong demon-holding vessels? Or was it more of a random success? Somehow I feel his power has a more intimate connection with humans. The word 'spirit' comes to mind and the 'Ghost'-demons (ie the kid in the amusement park).
Also could Rin and/or Yukio develop unique Azazel-like powers and co-opt it in a unique way with the flames? ...man idk....related to both Satan and Azazel....talk about an extreme bloodline. Next thing we know, we'll hear Yuri had some other demon king blood relation rofl.


Are we sure that no one else could hear Satan other than Amaimon and the twins?
We aren't sure yet, but I kept wondering that too. There was no 'What's that voice?' or similar from the exwires, but so much was happening at once: Yukio-face-heel-turn, broken Koumaken, flaming-eye Yukio, Rin suffering from his heart coming out...maybe it was too much to take in. Amaimon was all Father this, Father that, and Rin's "SATAN!!" So i bet they know he's there with Yukio somehow. It would be interesting if only Rin, Yukio, and the demon kings/other demons can only hear him though. One might need demon telepathy to hear him.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Cloelia on January 06, 2018, 10:32:10 PM
There was that theory that somehow Yukio's eye(s) was transplanted from the Satan-possessed AZ-05 into the baby Yukio for some crazy reason. That's from Toudou's line 'those aren't your eyes'.

I think that theory was mine (unless someone else thought the same thing. Sorry, but I can't remember right now or I prolly missed/forgot about it if it was already mentioned). Anyway, it's been a while since I started doubting the transplant bit.

In time, I found more "believable" the theory that Yukio may have simply -inherited- his eyes (and the genes which make 'em compatible/possessable by Satan) from his human father (Goro-005) so Yukio's eyes are -his own- eyes and not "transplanted" from his father. I thought about the only close-up panel we got of 005's "face" and how it specifically focuses on the left eye of the guy. So I thought, if 005's eyes could turn "Satanic-shaped" maybe it's something like what's happening to Yukio. And Yukio may have inherited the same trait. Something like this.

It would be interesting if only Rin, Yukio, and the demon kings/other demons can only hear him though. One might need demon telepathy to hear him.

Which makes me wonder... Telepathy between demons is supposed to be a demons-only thing, right? That's why Rin can understand Kuro, or sense demons in general, and Yukio not. To be honest, I had a doubt in chapter 93 that prolly Yukio could hear Satan's voice but not understand his "language". Such as Kuro's meow which Rin understands in "human" language. I mean, Yukio can hear Kuro's meow but only Rin can understand what Kuro's "saying".

But it looks like Yukio CAN understand what Satan says. At least, from what we can get by Satan commenting about Shiemi in chapter 97 and Yukio remarking. Sooo... Yukio can understand a demon. Okay, is it a new ability he unlocked from chapter 93 too/it only works with Satan 'cause he literally lives "inside his eyes"/is it connected to a possible "blood relationship" between them which, after all, they share (even if tinier compared to Satan/Rin's)/Satan is actually "possessing" Yukio's mind (at least a part of it) too (maybe through his eyes) and that's why he can "manipulate" it like he sometimes did in old chapters (Yukio's blackouts/walking to places without realizing, and so on...)/Yukio is actually a half demon, after all?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: SKL on January 06, 2018, 11:09:25 PM
In time, I found more "believable" the theory that Yukio may have simply -inherited- his eyes (and the genes which make 'em compatible/possessable by Satan) from his human father (Goro-005) so Yukio's eyes are -his own- eyes and not "transplanted" from his father. I thought about the only close-up panel we got of 005's "face" and how it specifically focuses on the left eye of the guy. So I thought, if 005's eyes could turn "Satanic-shaped" maybe it's something like what's happening to Yukio. And Yukio may have inherited the same trait. Something like this.
That panel stood out to me too. But it also reminded me of Yukio in a different way. Not the flaming bit, but the shape of the eyes/eyelids. Here I'm just talking about basic inheritance, not demon-y stuff. Like, 'you have your father's nose'. Remember Shura said Rin has Yuri's eyes. Yuri's eyes were more pointed and up-turned and look like Rin's. Yukio got his eyes from his human father (005) then.

Quote
It would be interesting if only Rin, Yukio, and the demon kings/other demons can only hear him though. One might need demon telepathy to hear him.

Which makes me wonder... Telepathy between demons is supposed to be a demons-only thing, right? That's why Rin can understand Kuro, or sense demons in general, and Yukio not. To be honest, I had a doubt in chapter 93 that prolly Yukio could hear Satan's voice but not understand his "language". Such as Kuro's meow which Rin understands in "human" language. I mean, Yukio can hear Kuro's meow but only Rin can understand what Kuro's "saying".


But it looks like Yukio CAN understand what Satan says. At least, from what we can get by Satan commenting about Shiemi in chapter 97 and Yukio remarking. Sooo... Yukio can understand a demon. Okay, is it a new ability he unlocked from chapter 93 too/it only works with Satan 'cause he literally lives "inside his eyes"/is it connected to a possible "blood relationship" between them which, after all, they share (even if tinier compared to Satan/Rin's)/Satan is actually "possessing" Yukio's mind (at least a part of it) too (maybe through his eyes) and that's why he can "manipulate" it like he sometimes did in old chapters (Yukio's blackouts/walking to places without realizing, and so on...)/Yukio is actually a half demon, after all?
My guess is Yukio had (or still has) the potential to be a full half-demon like Rin. Like he got the basic inheritance or genes that link back to Satan, but didn't actually get the demon heart/flames. The process was stopped or failed partway because he was weak/and or something was done to him. Remember Shiro could have just said originally in ch1 to Rin when he asked about Yukio, that there were never any flames involved with Yukio to begin with.
Instead he says his weak body couldn't take them or whatever, so he remained human and didn't inherit them. That implied there were flames there for Yukio at first, but failed to get to him. That's why I think it's both a yes an no that Yukio inherited the flames. His body has the inheritance factor, so he's got the basic blueprint for it, but he didn't inherit it since the flames never came all the way. It could be permanent damage and that it was a one chance to get it right at birth. That would mean Yukio would always have this link to Satan only in the eye(s). Or it's not permanent and there's a way to correct it with Lucifer's methods. That's something at this point we need to wait and see.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: earthforge on January 07, 2018, 06:58:49 AM
And, once Rin's demonic heart will be out of him, Rin would be left "empty" BUT, after all the training with his flame power over the months, he'll be capable to sustain an even stronger flame power (Satan's) along with his (Satan's) demonic heart (if he got one?). So this is what Satan could mean by wanting to make Rin a vessel for himself? This is why Mephisto worked hard to train Rin for?

Ooooh I think you're onto something! Maybe the reason Satan can't just possess Rin is that Rin's body is currently "occupied" -- maybe this is Satan's plan:

Now, I assume that Mephisto proposed to Satan that Rin's body was incapable of handling Satan's power all at once and offered to train Rin to strengthen the vessel before breaking the sword. Satan was pleased with Samael holding up his end of the bargain, so he broke Kurikara. Now Satan has to wait and see if Rin's body won't disintegrate, and then it's just a matter of destroying Rin's demon heart.

Then there's Lucifer's plan. I remember that the phrasing was they are using the immortals to "prepare" Satan's body. At first I thought they meant building it, but they could also be developing to materials to reinforce an existing scaffold. Rin, or perhaps Yukio, but I'm doubtful on the latter right now.

... Yikes to all of this.

Are we sure that no one else could hear Satan other than Amaimon and the twins?

I think only demons can hear/sense Satan right now (Mephisto reacts too). My circumstantial basis for this is how when Yukio started hearing the voice in chapter 93, nobody around him reacted. Also, I don't think Satan's speaking in a physical way because Satan is literally just an eye... ball... (oh frig I just realized the eyeball werewolf card for Satan is essentially Yukio's left eye JFC IT WAS IN FRONT OF US THE WHOLE TIME)... but anyway, literally just an eyeball right now.

If this is not disproved in the next two chapters by the Exwires commenting on how they heard Satan's little speech, the difficulty is in reconciling how Yukio could hear Satan in his mind when Yukio doesn't have any known telepathic ability. The only prior instance is his near-death shout to Rin back in Kyoto.

So, wait, then do you think it's possible the first time Rin heard Yukio that connection "unlocked" but Satan took over it the moment after so they (Yukio and Rin) weren't able to communicate anymore?

Maybe? It's so hard to figure out the series of events. Heck, I'm even wondering if Satan could always see out of Yukio's left eye and not just when the eyes change. Satan said that he'd been seeing Rin here and there, and Yukio has never looked at Rin with the active blue eyes until now.

My guess is Yukio had (or still has) the potential to be a full half-demon like Rin. Like he got the basic inheritance or genes that link back to Satan, but didn't actually get the demon heart/flames. The process was stopped or failed partway because he was weak/and or something was done to him. Remember Shiro could have just said originally in ch1 to Rin when he asked about Yukio, that there were never any flames involved with Yukio to begin with.
Instead he says his weak body couldn't take them or whatever, so he remained human and didn't inherit them. That implied there were flames there for Yukio at first, but failed to get to him. That's why I think it's both a yes an no that Yukio inherited the flames. His body has the inheritance factor, so he's got the basic blueprint for it, but he didn't inherit it since the flames never came all the way. It could be permanent damage and that it was a one chance to get it right at birth. That would mean Yukio would always have this link to Satan only in the eye(s). Or it's not permanent and there's a way to correct it with Lucifer's methods. That's something at this point we need to wait and see.

Interesting! That would definitely explain why Lucifer talked about Yukio's power being there the entire time.

I almost wonder if Satan parasitizing Yukio's eyes would block that inheritance from happening. I mean, if my pet theory that Satan has protected Yukio from getting possessed by any other demon is true, then the same could apply to any inherent demon power that was his. Darn it, now I have to go back to chapter 3 and reread how parasitization works. Reading happier times with the twins hurts my heart.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tandem on January 07, 2018, 01:48:07 PM
His control is limited to purely the flames through one small point in Yukio's left eye (though looks like the flames can spread to the right, I wonder why)
I think that might be an evidence that at least part of the flame is Yukio's, not all belongs to Satan. His right eye still stay round shape while the left eye became the narrow demon form. Looks like it's to emphasize his right eye is all human --- namely it's 100% Yukio's. So the flame in his right eye probably is Yukio's flame.

Are we sure that no one else could hear Satan other than Amaimon and the twins?
We aren't sure yet, but I kept wondering that too. There was no 'What's that voice?' or similar from the exwires
Are they close enough? In chapter 96 they can't hear what the twin was talking about. Plus there is the huge helicopter noise. I don't expect they can hear what Rin, Yukio, or Satan talking before the helicopter left.

Such as Kuro's meow which Rin understands in "human" language. I mean, Yukio can hear Kuro's meow but only Rin can understand what Kuro's "saying".

But it looks like Yukio CAN understand what Satan says.
That's not a problem. There are many demons who can talk in human language. Kuro just ... need to study more I guess.

I don't really think Rin has use any kind of telepathy from any demon. If that's the case, there's the problem why he can't communicate with some demons like Shiemi's Nee? I think Rin just can understand Kuro's meow "cat language". We didn't see he communicate with Kuro from a distance, and he definitely talks to Kuro by his mouth.

so he broke Kurikara. Now Satan has to wait and see if Rin's body won't disintegrate, and then it's just a matter of destroying Rin's demon heart.
I wonder. How can Satan destroy Rin's heart without possessing someone first? And he just leave instead of waiting for a while to see the result. How long does he plan to wait to see Rin's result?

Then there's Lucifer's plan. I remember that the phrasing was they are using the immortals to "prepare" Satan's body. At first I thought they meant building it, but they could also be developing to materials to reinforce an existing scaffold.
I would be very disappointed if Lucifer still has to use Rin in his plan. First he just released Rin in nine-tail arc without any hesitation, which is kind of strange. Then he already collected A LOT material and he even told Toudou he'll use demon eaters in case those are not enough. The most important reason is, I think using Rin contradicts the scientific spirit of Illuminati. I think they would create Satan's vessel in a scientific way because they already have the knowledge to build perfect vessels from scratch, not to rely on something non-reproducible like Rin's body which can't scale to other case.

My circumstantial basis for this is how when Yukio started hearing the voice in chapter 93, nobody around him reacted. Also, I don't think Satan's speaking in a physical way because Satan is literally just an eye... ball...
But Yukio didn't notice it on the subway either. It could be Satan just murmur in very low volume.

I don't think producing a physical voice is impossible for ... that left eye. That's just vibration through air, which doesn't seem more difficult than emitting Gehenna fire

I almost wonder if Satan parasitizing Yukio's eyes would block that inheritance from happening.
If it's parasitism then shouldn't Yukio identify that? He seems has no idea what it is. And by parasitism it's like Satan is always there, but I think Satan isn't really confined but more like using Yukio as a "channel"
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Cloelia on January 07, 2018, 03:49:37 PM
That panel stood out to me too. But it also reminded me of Yukio in a different way. Not the flaming bit, but the shape of the eyes/eyelids. Here I'm just talking about basic inheritance, not demon-y stuff. Like, 'you have your father's nose'. Remember Shura said Rin has Yuri's eyes. Yuri's eyes were more pointed and up-turned and look like Rin's. Yukio got his eyes from his human father (005) then.

Oh, yeah, that's pretty "certain", I guess. Yukio's eyes' shape totally DOES look like Goro's. Just like Rin's totally looks like Yuri's (I couldn't find better panels, ugh):

(https://image.ibb.co/db00Pw/eyes.png)

About Yuri, since we mentioned her, we still don't know much about her but we know she's "related" to Asylum/S13. Someone theorized she could be a clone too (and even a clone of Egyn 'cause of the similarity of their names) but reading the BTS arc (and, well, maybe it was easy to guess even back in chapter 85-86) I think there's proof she wasn't a clone but, I guess, just an orphan. When Lightning and Suguro were consulting the clones' lists, Yuri's name was not found in them. Lightning knows her name (he stated he read reports of the Blue Night and mentioned Yuri's name).

And, in the BTS arc, after Yukio reads the same files, he comments "I couldn't find anything [...] about Yuri Egin." Now, unless Yuri was given this name later and in the files she had a different one (I doubt this since Shiro's name didn't change, but maybe it's possible) the only other explanation I can think of is maybe Lightning DID find Yuri in those lists but he didn't put the file in the usb he gave Yukio. But I can't think of any reason for this, so. Anyway, just a random comment.

Which makes me wonder... Telepathy between demons is supposed to be a demons-only thing, right? That's why Rin can understand Kuro, or sense demons in general, and Yukio not. To be honest, I had a doubt in chapter 93 that prolly Yukio could hear Satan's voice but not understand his "language". Such as Kuro's meow which Rin understands in "human" language. I mean, Yukio can hear Kuro's meow but only Rin can understand what Kuro's "saying".

But it looks like Yukio CAN understand what Satan says. At least, from what we can get by Satan commenting about Shiemi in chapter 97 and Yukio remarking. Sooo... Yukio can understand a demon. Okay, is it a new ability he unlocked from chapter 93 too/it only works with Satan 'cause he literally lives "inside his eyes"/is it connected to a possible "blood relationship" between them which, after all, they share (even if tinier compared to Satan/Rin's)/Satan is actually "possessing" Yukio's mind (at least a part of it) too (maybe through his eyes) and that's why he can "manipulate" it like he sometimes did in old chapters (Yukio's blackouts/walking to places without realizing, and so on...)/Yukio is actually a half demon, after all?

On second thought, after reconsidering this part, I think I made confusion. I talked about telepathy but maybe this is not the "way to communicate" Satan is actually using. Humans CAN understand demons when they talk (well, I can think of Uke, Mike, the Kraken, Hachirotaro, etc.), they just can't "read the thoughts in their minds"/"communicate through their minds".

So the point is: is Satan communicating with the twins through "talking" or "telepathy"? I think this should be clarified first.

My guess is Yukio had (or still has) the potential to be a full half-demon like Rin. Like he got the basic inheritance or genes that link back to Satan, but didn't actually get the demon heart/flames. The process was stopped or failed partway because he was weak/and or something was done to him. Remember Shiro could have just said originally in ch1 to Rin when he asked about Yukio, that there were never any flames involved with Yukio to begin with.
Instead he says his weak body couldn't take them or whatever, so he remained human and didn't inherit them. That implied there were flames there for Yukio at first, but failed to get to him. That's why I think it's both a yes an no that Yukio inherited the flames. His body has the inheritance factor, so he's got the basic blueprint for it, but he didn't inherit it since the flames never came all the way. It could be permanent damage and that it was a one chance to get it right at birth. That would mean Yukio would always have this link to Satan only in the eye(s). Or it's not permanent and there's a way to correct it with Lucifer's methods. That's something at this point we need to wait and see.

*screams* I like this. And it made me think/remember of other things. I mentioned this theory before but I want to try and connect it with what you said and try to make up a new. I theorized before that Yukio's "Give me your flame." (at least based on Viz's translation) plus his general wish for power/strength and his "obsession" to be stronger than Rin could depend by the fact Yukio's own flame power was somehow "absorbed" by Rin while they were in the womb ('cause he was physically stronger), leaving Yukio with a sort of "unconscious" crave for that power he was separated from at the moment of his conception. Like, Yukio feels like something is "missing", his own power, and unconsciously craves to get it back. (and this is why he's so fixated on this, it's like an instinct)

But, considering we now know Mephisto could've been training Rin specifically to make him capable to host a huge flame power (Satan's) what if Yukio's "flame power" (which, as you said, was apparently "there for Yukio at first, but failed to get to him") was instead -purposely- transferred to only one twin (Rin, 'cause he was physically stronger) so he could be trained to endure more flames and develope a stronger "tolerance"/"resistance" to a larger amount (Satan's)?

Another one of my headcanons is that Rin possesses innatural strength (and he was able to "manifest" it even before he was "awaken" to his demonic form), while Yukio not, 'cause Rin may have inherited it by the enhanced genes of his human father. Now, I don't know if by "enhanced" Mephisto meant "a more resistant" body (to physical damages) or a body with a higher ability to regenerate (heal itself) or simply a human body capable to better armonize with demon genes or all of these. But Mephisto also added "strongest", the strongest enhanced human. Strong, as in "physically" strong?

Anyway, even if it's a combination of all these things, the result was that prolly Rin inherited a "strong enhanced" body by his human father genes (and was "powered up" by the demonic ones of Satan). While Yukio prolly didn't got those genes (or he would've manifested it somehow, either by being able to lift heavy objects, run faster, heal faster, and so on... But it looks, and the manga proved us countless time, Yukio can't do any of this (heck, his arm's been broken for 17 chapters now/a couple months in manga-time)) so, Yukio may have got a "weaker" body 'cause he didn't inherit the "enhanced" genes.

Or, and here it gets tricky, someone experimented on him and manipulated his genes on purpose to "weaken" him and, consequentially, "separate" him/making him unable to sustain his share of flame power and make it as Rin ended up being the only twin to inherit both flame powers.

Now, as you said, I wonder if by "unlocking your potential" Lucifer actually meant "doing something" to undo what 'caused Yukio to not gain access to his power and he may offer some "potion"/medical procedure to make him "unblock" his enhanced genes which would make him capable to host the flame power again.

Satan was pleased with Samael holding up his end of the bargain,

Which makes me wonder, will we now find out what was -Satan-'s end of the bargain? Maybe they're teaming up against Lucifer (since I hope this is really Mephisto's plan as he declared)?

I mean, if my pet theory that Satan has protected Yukio from getting possessed by any other demon is true,

Whhhhich makes me wonder, now that Satan got what he long wanted (break the Koma sword) what's left for him to do with Yukio? There's more he wants to do with Yukio or he may now decide to let him go or... he just can't (for now)?

I think that might be an evidence that at least part of the flame is Yukio's, not all belongs to Satan. His right eye still stay round shape while the left eye became the narrow demon form. Looks like it's to emphasize his right eye is all human --- namely it's 100% Yukio's. So the flame in his right eye probably is Yukio's flame.

Yup, this too. I understand Japanese's plurals are kinda "confusing" so there's this "eye/eyes" which is not that clear, but the fact remains that Yukio's eyes do BOTH change shape when they "activate". One is more Satan-shaped, okay, but his right one does at least turn blue/his iris change into "cat eye"-shape (similar to Rin's when he's in demonic form)/it does emit some lil flames. When Yukio covered his left eye in chapter 97 Satan said something like "don't cover me up" so it looks like Satan can only see/he's only "inside" Yukio's left eye or else he could still keep watching from Yukio's right eye. Then what about his right eye? Intriguing.

Edit: very cracky theory. What if the flames Rin can use while the sword is sheathed and the ones he can use while his sword is unsheathed are two different flames? And one of those are Yukio's?
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Taytronics7 on January 10, 2018, 08:03:55 PM
Another theory from me to you!

Alright so this theory is going to be based off of Shiemi's character emblem. In the middle of it, we can see that around the heart is a crown of thorns. This detail has me worried because in Shura's character emblem it has the Latin phrase, "She dies young", amongst other things that symbolized her would be future had not Rin and Yukio interfered.

Which begs the question, does the crown of thorns represent that Shiemi will be placed on a cross or  become a martyr for someone's sake? I can't remember who, but I do remember in the anime that someone was put on a cross. I also remember seeing Shiemi in several pictures wearing a necklace with a cross on it (volume 3 cover art being one example).

Now how would she become a martyr or even get sentenced to death? Well, based on chapter 87, it's implied that her mother is the real traitor other than Drac. It's also heavily implied that the Moriyama family are nephilims of Shemihaza, with Shiemi's mother being the current representative. If her mother would be found out and sentenced to death, I could see Shiemi possibly taking her place.

Of course I don't think that Shiemi will actually die. She's the main heroine after all. How do I think she'll avoid death and/or prison sentence? I think Yukio will come and break her out of prison. Why? I've noticed a trend with the main trio and prison breaks. In the Impure King arc, it's Shiemi who goes to free Rin from jail. In the Beyond the Snow mini arc, it's Rin who saves Yukio. All that's left is for Shiemi to get locked up and Yukio to save her, then all of the main trio will have saved another of the main trio from prison. I think it would be a neat detail if it's actually included. Also, Yukio still very much cares for Shiemi, so I don't think he'd just let her stay in prison or die. There's also the possibility that Shiemi may have some connection to the Illuminati, so they may order her rescue.

This is a darker theory, but Kato did say the story would get darker, so....
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Cloelia on January 10, 2018, 09:39:06 PM
^ And it's already in its darker phase since the BTS arc began, I'd say. I like this theory, anyway. And since Kato-sama sometimes likes to "replay"/"recycle" certain events by changing only some details/the characters involved (something along these lines, not that I'm saying she does that 'cause she lacks ideas), I think a scenario like that could be possible. I never considered the characters' emblems.

I have a theory of my own, plus another very cracky (crazy) one I'm putting down on my block notes these days and will post later.

This is the less cracky one: the Illuminati may plan to kill exorcists who interfere with the opening of the Artificial Gate/try to obstacolate the demons coming out of it so I suspect Angel could be in danger. One step back. Remember Angel being positively impressed by Yukio's deportment compared to his "vulgar" brother? He even stated he liked him. Now, imagine the Illuminati sends a squad (with Yukio in it) to deal with those exorcists and they cross Angel's crew. I guess Angel will be disappointed at seeing Yukio with the bad guys.

I imagined this scene where the Illuminati takes down a lot of Angel's squad members and Angel is the only survivor (well, he's the Paladin). At this point, he'll feel mad and desperate and will start yelling at Yukio a bunch of harsh things for just standing there and watch the massacre of his former comrades. He may also end up shouting him something like Rin maybe was the "best" brother, after all, and he was wrong to think the opposite. At least, Rin exorcised the IK and saved people.

Um, more cruels words... And Yukio may end up... shooting him and killing him? I also believe that the fact it was stated Lightning was the second candidate to become Paladin could be a foreshadow that Angel will die and Lightning will take his place (after the Drac thing is solved, oc). Now, why should Yukio be the one to kill him? Oh, my, because of what I said above and also 'cause: now imagine if Yukio will actually turn into a killer too? Sounds like an -even- darker development, huh? So I can already see Kato-sama cracking her fingers.

Kidding, I think there could be a sorta way out of this for Yukio. Surprise surprise, what if after Angel's death it will turns out the Angel we saw in the manga it's actually a clone of the real Angel? And that that's why he can't remember about the Blue Night. And, since I love Yukio, I even hope that manga!Angel it's not even a clone, but like... a demon-shapeshifter? So, basically a demon. But Yukio, obviously, would find out only later. *Mephisto's doing! Mephisto's doing everywhere!*
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tandem on January 11, 2018, 06:27:34 AM
I've got a theory based on the main trio/jailbreaks we've had so far.

When Rin is jailed in the IK arc, Shiemi is the one who breaks him out. When Yukio is jailed, Rin is the one who frees him. Will the cycle complete itself and Shiemi eventually gets locked up and Yukio springs her out?
does the crown of thorns represent that Shiemi will be placed on a cross or  become a martyr for someone's sake?
My theory is a bit different : Shiemi might be imprisoned in Illuminati's jail, so the rest is obvious that Yukio will release her. (Conversation goes like  "I know you aren't on their side, Yuki-chan!" , "Don't get me wrong. I just don't think you should be here.")

Besides a failed rescuing Yukio mission, another reason that Illuminati might do so is Satan's recent rising interest on her. That is, the comment in this chapter probably has more to do with starting another storyline than just displaying Satan's humor.

Remember Angel being positively impressed by Yukio's deportment compared to his "vulgar" brother? He even stated he liked him. Now, imagine the Illuminati sends a squad (with Yukio in it) to deal with those exorcists and they cross Angel's crew. I guess Angel will be disappointed at seeing Yukio with the bad guys.

I imagined this scene where the Illuminati takes down a lot of Angel's squad members and Angel is the only survivor (well, he's the Paladin). At this point, he'll feel mad and desperate and will start yelling at Yukio
My theory is again a bit different : Arthur might betray the Order and/or join Illuminati.

There are several reasons that people start talking about the possibility of Arthur's betrayal. First, if the story will develop as to let Rin save the day, then Arthur, being the Paladin, is (unfortunately) an obstruct and highly likely to be removed from his position by Kato. Besides sacrificing himself, betrayal is another common choice.

Second, there must be some reason that Arthur has to lost his memory. Maybe there are more hidden secrets about that, so Arthur's faith to the Order will be shaken. Or he simply just can't accept the section 13 history (like Yukio) when it is revealed. Being a clone of Lucifer's body (what we assumed) might also enhance his connection to Illuminati.

Finally, having a good impression on Yukio, tbh isn't a good sign either. If Arthur runs into Yukio and asks him why he betray, Yukio's reason might get into him. Moreover, whatever hidden secret of Yuri and the twin's birth that Yukio will learn, the Order is likely to be more morally compromised than what we know so far. That can be something makes Arthur feel disgusting.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Taytronics7 on January 13, 2018, 04:24:25 AM
I've got a theory based on the main trio/jailbreaks we've had so far.

When Rin is jailed in the IK arc, Shiemi is the one who breaks him out. When Yukio is jailed, Rin is the one who frees him. Will the cycle complete itself and Shiemi eventually gets locked up and Yukio springs her out?
does the crown of thorns represent that Shiemi will be placed on a cross or  become a martyr for someone's sake?
My theory is a bit different : Shiemi might be imprisoned in Illuminati's jail, so the rest is obvious that Yukio will release her. (Conversation goes like  "I know you aren't on their side, Yuki-chan!" , "Don't get me wrong. I just don't think you should be here.")

Besides a failed rescuing Yukio mission, another reason that Illuminati might do so is Satan's recent rising interest on her. That is, the comment in this chapter probably has more to do with starting another storyline than just displaying Satan's humor.

I like your theory, but I have a hard time believing that the Illuminati wouldn't be pissed at Yukio if he did indeed let Shiemi go free. I guess it would depend on what they lock her up for.

I agree with you that Satan saying she's an interesting girl is no mere display of humor. I wonder how that plot line will play out. Satan seems to just take whatever he wants, so maybe he'd try to make her his bride or something? It's kinda cliche at this point, but there was the suggestion by Izumo that maybe she quit being an exorcist because of a forced marriage. Could that be foreshadowing a scenario like this? I like to think that the things that exwires said to explain why Shiemi quit do have an ounce of truth to them. Like how Koneko said that she was from the moon, obviously she's not a moon goddess, but rather it's true that she isn't human. Bon said she might be a crane. Again obviously she's not a crane, but foreshadows that once her secret gets out she has to leave, and Izumo's I explained above.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tandem on January 24, 2018, 03:56:59 PM
"Gunnar"? I thought those guys were called Lund and Strom?
I check the raw, and that’s surely different than their names in nine-tail arc. I wonder if that’s a name of a group or something, or is he just not who we saw before? (I mean, perhaps for some reason there are more than two members with similar appearance …)
I had the following new crack theory for a while ...

There is a clone army in Illuminati

So not only Lund and Strom and Gunnar, but there are also many other guys around with similar appearance. (And it's also why Shima doesn't seem too happy to be with them.) Because they inherit carefully selected genes, they are as strong as demons and tend to have simpler personality so they won't betray.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Taytronics7 on February 03, 2018, 08:41:32 PM
So Shiemi's badass forest skills this chapter made me come up with a theory.

As far as foreshadowing goes in the series, there have been a couple of instances where Shiemi was described as a "monster", either by herself (though in a playful way) in chapter 47 while she's wearing the ghost costume, she says "Yeah! I'm a monster!" and in chapter 82 where when Shiemi expresses her desire to be a "proper human being", Izumo replies with "What are you, a yokai?", which means either a ghost/monster.

Is this foreshadowing that Shiemi, like Rin, will eventually be seen as a monster by losing control of her power and hurting someone she cares about? I remember in chapter 41 when Izumo and Paku were talking about Shiemi, Paku says, "Why don't you like Moriyama san? She isn't the type who'd do stuff that would hurt you, Izumo-chan...".

I'd like to see Shiemi go through something like that. All her life she's been sickly and timid, but suddenly gaining a lot of power in an instant, going berserk, and hurting people?  It would be interesting to see how she handles herself and her interactions with others from then on. 
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: earthforge on February 03, 2018, 10:05:59 PM
^ That is an interesting theory. Shiemi's power are insanely OP. She also was affected by how she used it against the zombie. Goes well with the theories of her being a nephilim of Shemihaza.

Something I wondered in seeing Shiemi on the cover of chapter 87 was how her hair seemed to be turning into branches and flowers... I've wondered if she was really a human or even born. Her distant dreamy nature is like a fairy child. Reminds me of folk stories of making a child of clay that is animated by a spirit.

I hope Izumo will take Shiemi back to Futsumaya and have a talk with Shiemi's mom.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Madow on February 03, 2018, 11:36:24 PM
I have a small crack theory on why Rin is so "weak" (Still beats the shit out of most demons) despite being the direct child of Satan and that's because there's still another seal on the sword. Firstly, Rin's demon form isn't like others, his demon trait stay relatively the same where as someone like Amaimon grows horns, has massive growth to his arms and gains a lizard tail. I think the flames fill in as where things should be, like his horns or tail. Secondly, Satan stated that he was going to break the sword to free his true power, of course this could be different now, most small details change like that. Now thirdly, Lightning's taken a real good interest into his sword, wanting to "tamper" with it, I wouldn't be surprised if he wanted to mess with the way his Heart was sealed and linking to this, Bon's father said if he had any problems with the sword to bring it to him, which could maybe be leading up to a future event where his Heart is unleashed fully.
As for why Mephisto put a secondary seal, I think he was scared of Rin getting too strong too quickly, he might've been a loose cannon and he needed to show the order he could be controlled to let him live. After all, you can't have a pawn that's stronger than you

Hey, at least I was mostly right! So now to think of a new crack theory involving Rin...

Small crack theory now that his body is fully demonic, so is his blood. Perhaps if he suffers major damage in battle, like losing a limb (Not much of a problem for him anymore..) the blood that he loses will form Gehenna Gates! It's very anime-filler inspired but I think it'd be cool if miniature Gehenna Gates started to form from his pools of blood.

Also now because of his transformation he'll be able to use more demonic tricks like Amaimon and Mephisto like levitating, poofing things into existance etc. instead of his usual blue flames shtick
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: clou on February 04, 2018, 11:15:35 AM
Something come in my mind with the new chapter

We all know:  if demon power > human body, then the body start to "dying".
Even rin we think to be out of this problem have it when the seal which contain his demon heart broke.

So I remember shiro said he can't tell yukio the truth for now....and lucifer said he want to save him...hmm
What if yukio's body was weaker than his power at birth ? and this is why shiro and mephisto hide this secret, to protect him from the awakening of this power.
Lucifer have the elexir, so he can awaken yukio's power without killing him.
This can be the reason they said the power rejected yukio because he was weak .
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Taytronics7 on February 04, 2018, 01:07:13 PM
^ That is an interesting theory. Shiemi's power are insanely OP. She also was affected by how she used it against the zombie. Goes well with the theories of her being a nephilim of Shemihaza.

Something I wondered in seeing Shiemi on the cover of chapter 87 was how her hair seemed to be turning into branches and flowers... I've wondered if she was really a human or even born. Her distant dreamy nature is like a fairy child. Reminds me of folk stories of making a child of clay that is animated by a spirit.

I hope Izumo will take Shiemi back to Futsumaya and have a talk with Shiemi's mom.

Thank you! I love making these theories, so it's appreciated. :D

Alright, I've got another one that kinda goes off this theory.

So we see that after Shiemi summons that forest, her nose starts dripping blood. After Rin faints, she does too. Is it possible that even after she wakes up, her condition will continue to worsen?

One of the main points of chapter 88 was that Rin and everyone else thought that Shiemi was going to die since she gave up on being an exorcist. Even though Shiemi says she's not dying or going away, I believe that the possibility of her dying was a kind of foreshadowing. Perhaps after she wakes up in a hospital, her condition doesn't improve, and her body continues to deteriorate.

It goes back to my other theory that Shiemi isn't human, but a demon that hasn't awakened an "ego" yet. Chapter 87 was called Embryo, and I assume we'll get a chapter called Fetus and eventually get  one that's called Birth. Why? The "embryo" that is hinted at in the title of chapter 87 is actually the beginning of a developing demon heart inside Shiemi. Remember in chapter 1 how Satan described Rin awakening as being reborn? He even says "Happy Birthday!"  to him before trying to drag him into Gehenna. Maybe that's the connection to embryo. Once it fully develops, Shiemi will technically be "reborn".

Of course, her body will, like Rin's, begin to deteriorate due to the immense power trying to surface. I suspect she couldn't develop a demon heart before since she was always sickly. After joining the cram school, her health begins to vastly improve, so much so that in chapter 88 it's said by Yukio that her health check up was excellent. I also believe that since the doctors won't know what's happening to her with her worsening condition, they'll say there's nothing more they can do for Shiemi, and inform her mother and friends that she doesn't have much time left.

Maybe this is where Izumo and the others question Shiemi's mother about her daughter's powers and her worsening condition. Of course, she won't tell them the truth, but it makes everyone suspicious.

Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Cloelia on February 04, 2018, 02:29:10 PM
Man, if you think about it, almost any main character, at some point, got to deal with the topic of their own death. Either they got death words told to them, faced deadly situations, contemplated death, suspected it for others, attempted suicide, made jokes about it and so on. If we make a list, Shima absolutely got the top 1. Would be interesting to create a real list about this. A few examples:

-Rin: "Just die", he contemplated to die himself in the IK arc.
-Yukio: well...
-Shiemi: as said above, the exwires suspected she could be dying.
-Izumo: Inari arc, anyone?
-Suguro: his own line: "If I'll have to kill Shima, I'll die too."
-Shima: same as Yukio.
-Konekomaru: attempted suicide during the Inari arc.

If all these were actual foreshadows, I think out of the main cast no one will survive by the end of the story. Or maybe only Izumo and Konekomaru since, unlike the others, I think we could say they got a chance to face and "survive" their own personal "death" challenges so they could be considered "out of danger". Or so I think.

Anyway, here I am with a (not cracky) but totally crazy theory. Feel free to kill me, I allow you. But here's what's been running in my mind these last 3 days: what if it turns out Yukio, and I mean the Yukio we've seen so far, is actualy the demon version of himself while, opposite to Rin, is his human side the one "trapped" somewhere inside him?

Here's what I combined to get to this crazy(stupid) theory:

-Todo's line: "A demon face. That's your -true- self." Could it be Yukio is actually a demon!Yukio? I know he's human and we've been proved/told/reminded a gazillion times. But I defined this theory "crazy" for a reason. So...
-another anime reference. Remember episode 24? Naked Yukio, baby Yukios and all that shet? No, forget the baby Yukios. I understand it was a completely different situation but, back then, we're shown this human!Yukio trapped inside Satan possessed!Yukio.

Okay, and that's all for my daily share of nonesense.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Kiellessa on February 04, 2018, 03:45:36 PM
Sorry, first post here, though some of you might know me from tumblr.

We all know Shiemi gets exhausted when she overtaxes her powers (Shemihaza nephilim or something similar), and this time, she even got a nosebleed.

What if every time she creates life with Nii-chan as a conduit (he provides the earth) that she uses a bit of her own life force to do it. That would make things EXTREMELY dangerous for her to continue using them in such a way and being an Exorcist would quite literally shorten her life. She gets taxed far more than any other tamer when using Nii-chan to grow plants.

(https://78.media.tumblr.com/e780ae89083406dfd2e424d3a725287b/tumblr_inline_p3mr7r49zY1v6rm52_540.jpg)

http://imgur.com/a/Fmiig (http://imgur.com/a/Fmiig) (Larger image)

I’m positive her mom has ulterior motives, and this is a little out there, but maybe THAT’S what she was told to her and it scared her into quitting, on top of being HUGE info [Nephilim]. She’s too far removed from being a “living concept” (as Mephisto described demons) and is a flesh and blood creature, there is no endless source of power. She can’t generate life from nothing and it has to come from somewhere... herself.

And just like how Yukio was concerned that Rin was using his flames too much (at the cost of his humanity), her power use comes with a cost, too. Her life. Her version of being “consumed by the flames” would be dying. That would definitely put the brakes of her becoming any sort of super-badass, godly Exorcist.

That would also explain why she’s so torn about her decision but still doesn’t hesitate to use it to save people, and also explain the reason for her to not tell her friends about why she’s quitting... shame. She’s being “selfish” in wanting to live, and for her, that would be against everything she stands for: being selfless.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: earthforge on February 04, 2018, 04:21:37 PM
Welcome kiellessa! I read your theory this morning, and have been mulling it over with Tay's theory from the previous page. I think you're both onto something -- that Shiemi using her familiar is losing something, like her life force or body's integrity, so she's at a higher risk of dying.

I also wonder if the exorcist shop has a role in this. Shiemi didn't just say that she didn't want to be an exorcist anymore, she said she was going to inherit Futsumaya. That shop is special, kept in a strange location in True Cross Academy and only accessible via key. What if her life force is locked to the shop somehow?

Anyway, here I am with a (not cracky) but totally crazy theory. Feel free to kill me, I allow you. But here's what's been running in my mind these last 3 days: what if it turns out Yukio, and I mean the Yukio we've seen so far, is actualy the demon version of himself while, opposite to Rin, is his human side the one "trapped" somewhere inside him?

Not cracky at all! I thought of something similar. If Yukio's powers were simply dormant, then they were never sealed, meaning that Yukio might not have developed a human soul like Rin. Instead, he was a demon soul without any powers in a human body. Because that soul developed over sixteen years, it's largely the same as a human soul. The only difference is his supposed demon's nature. I think this would explain why Rin's humanity was imperative to protect, while Yukio's was irrelevant. Yukio couldn't be possessed, but Rin can be possessed by his demon heart or by Satan if his demon heart is destroyed. The most that Satan can do to Yukio is parasitize his left eye to observe the world.

This thought was inspired by Mephisto raising the questions of what is it to be a human or demon, and his regard for Rin as a fullblooded demon and Satan's son despite how Rin is definitely dominated by a human soul, contrasting his dismissive referral to Yukio as a child.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Kiellessa on February 04, 2018, 04:27:26 PM
I also wonder if the exorcist shop has a role in this. Shiemi didn't just say that she didn't want to be an exorcist anymore, she said she was going to inherit Futsumaya. That shop is special, kept in a strange location in True Cross Academy and only accessible via key. What if her life force is locked to the shop somehow?

Thanks! :D

And as far as that goes, if the Nephilim thing is true, it could the Futsumaya is code for the Grigori position. You can't have future Grigori potentially getting killed in active duty. Or it could be like the anime and there's a super-secret room with loads of demons and plantlife under the shed/shop, or even a gate to Amahara or something itself.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Kiellessa on February 04, 2018, 04:36:14 PM
^ That is an interesting theory. Shiemi's power are insanely OP. She also was affected by how she used it against the zombie. Goes well with the theories of her being a nephilim of Shemihaza.

Something I wondered in seeing Shiemi on the cover of chapter 87 was how her hair seemed to be turning into branches and flowers... I've wondered if she was really a human or even born. Her distant dreamy nature is like a fairy child. Reminds me of folk stories of making a child of clay that is animated by a spirit.

I hope Izumo will take Shiemi back to Futsumaya and have a talk with Shiemi's mom.

Thank you! I love making these theories, so it's appreciated. :D

Alright, I've got another one that kinda goes off this theory.

So we see that after Shiemi summons that forest, her nose starts dripping blood. After Rin faints, she does too. Is it possible that even after she wakes up, her condition will continue to worsen?

One of the main points of chapter 88 was that Rin and everyone else thought that Shiemi was going to die since she gave up on being an exorcist. Even though Shiemi says she's not dying or going away, I believe that the possibility of her dying was a kind of foreshadowing. Perhaps after she wakes up in a hospital, her condition doesn't improve, and her body continues to deteriorate.

It goes back to my other theory that Shiemi isn't human, but a demon that hasn't awakened an "ego" yet. Chapter 87 was called Embryo, and I assume we'll get a chapter called Fetus and eventually get  one that's called Birth. Why? The "embryo" that is hinted at in the title of chapter 87 is actually the beginning of a developing demon heart inside Shiemi. Remember in chapter 1 how Satan described Rin awakening as being reborn? He even says "Happy Birthday!"  to him before trying to drag him into Gehenna. Maybe that's the connection to embryo. Once it fully develops, Shiemi will technically be "reborn".

Very cool theory! It seems that things were foreshadowed (or at least they were given general points of future plot lines for the manga) for the anime with how things have come to pass, so maybe the homunculous is Shiemi, instead of Michelle, like in the anime. The word choice of embryo and her own jokes (and others') about her not being quite "human" would definitely fit with that. My only issue with that theory is that she actually gets wounded and bleeds.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Cloelia on February 04, 2018, 04:39:29 PM
First of all, welcome to the forum, Kiellessa!

As I theorized before, I think there's another reason for her trembling back in chapter 58. She was, imo, just traumatized 'cause, in a way, she just "killed" humans (even if they were zombified and therefore beyond salvation) and even if she did it to save her life, it was an hard choice to take. So, in that case, she wasn't trembling 'cause of the "exhaustion" which usually results from summoning a demon and/or having it use a particularly powerful spell.

Personally, I think there's nothing wrong with how Shiemi's drained after she had Nee summon an entire forest. We got a lot of examples in older chapters that summoning requires a lot of energy and, if I'm not wrong, I think it's explained somewhere too. And the powerful the spell you have your familiar use, the more the tamer is weakened. Even Izumo, in the IK arc, asked Shiemi to let her concentrate when she ordered her familiars to carry Tatsuma.

Or the first time (even the second) Yukio summoned the Naiads. He himself commented that summoning familiars is exhausting. And Todo complimented him 'cause it'd usually be hard to summon a lot of familiars without a Tamer Meister.

So, I think that Shiemi gets drained by summoning powerful spells through Nee 'cause she essentially just lacks training/needs more training. Right now I'm not sure if it's ever been explained, but I think that if an exwire trains until they become "powerful"/strong enough to better handle their familiars that's when they can get a Tamer Meister. If so, I think that'd mean that it takes around 1 year to get a "good" control of the familiars/learn to handle the energy "expense" it takes to summon them. And Shiemi (like the other exwires) as of now, is been training only for around 9 months.

This aside, I think the main thing which it seems to impress Satan(?) or Amaimon, is the "size" of what she can have Nee cast. Like they don't expect her to be able to cast certain HUGE things/cast them for so long. Even if she starts nosebleeding and faints after a while, she was still able to cast them in the first place. And this is the weird thing. Shemihaza/her heritage influence? I think there're very high chances this is the case.

Not cracky at all! I thought of something similar. If Yukio's powers were simply dormant, then they were never sealed, meaning that Yukio might not have developed a human soul like Rin. Instead, he was a demon soul without any powers in a human body. Because that soul developed over sixteen years, it's largely the same as a human soul. The only difference is his supposed demon's nature. I think this would explain why Rin's humanity was imperative to protect, while Yukio's was irrelevant. Yukio couldn't be possessed, but Rin can be possessed by his demon heart or by Satan if his demon heart is destroyed. The most that Satan can do to Yukio is parasitize his left eye to observe the world.

This thought was inspired by Mephisto raising the questions of what is it to be a human or demon, and his regard for Rin as a fullblooded demon and Satan's son despite how Rin is definitely dominated by a human soul, contrasting his dismissive referral to Yukio as a child.

Oh, boy, I like all of this. I like the points you made. And now that I read your comment, I kinda don't find my theory that crazy anymore too, lol All you said makes sense. That's right. This whole "Yukio's never been possessed by a demon before"/looks like he can't be possessed by any demon (not even Satan) even if he's (was) a walking pile of repressed feelings, stress and so on, looked ALWAYS weird to me. I mean, he should be the top 1 favorite kind of human who any demon would try to possess. But it never happened. So what if it's because he IS a demon himself? A demon "body" without a demon soul? Something like that? Grrr, Mephisto/Lucifer, hurry up and give us answers already!
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Kiellessa on February 04, 2018, 04:44:49 PM
First of all, welcome to the forum, Kiellessa!

As I theorized before, I think there's another reason for her trembling back in chapter 58. She was, imo, just traumatized 'cause, in a way, she just "killed" humans (even if they were zombified and therefore beyond salvation) and even if she did it to save her life, it was an hard choice to take. So, in that case, she wasn't trembling 'cause of the "exhaustion" which usually results from summoning a demon and/or having it use a particularly powerful spell.

Personally, I think there's nothing wrong with how Shiemi's drained after she had Nee summon an entire forest. We got a lot of examples in older chapters that summoning requires a lot of energy and, if I'm not wrong, I think it's explained somewhere too. And the powerful the spell you have your familiar use, the more the tamer is weakened. Even Izumo, in the IK arc, asked Shiemi to let her concentrate when she ordered her familiars to carry Tatsuma.

Or the first time (even the second) Yukio summoned the Naiads. He himself commented that summoning familiars is exhausting. And Todo complimented him 'cause it'd usually be hard to summon a lot of familiars without a Tamer Meister.

So, I think that Shiemi gets drained by summoning powerful spells through Nee 'cause she essentially just lacks training/needs more training. Right now I'm not sure if it's ever been explained, but I think that if an exwire trains until they become "powerful"/strong enough to better handle their familiars that's when they can get a Tamer Meister. If so, I think that'd mean that it takes around 1 year to get a "good" control of the familiars/learn to handle the energy "expense" it takes to summon them. And Shiemi (like the other exwires) as of now, is been training only for around 9 months.

This aside, I think the main thing which it seems to impress Satan(?) or Amaimon, is the "size" of what she can have Nee cast. Like they don't expect her to be able to cast certain HUGE things/cast them for so long. Even if she starts nosebleeding and faints after a while, she was still able to cast them in the first place. And this is the weird thing. Shemihaza/her heritage influence? I think there're very high chances this is the case.

Thank you! :D

Oh, that's my typical theory as well. She should only get better as things go on, and the how taxing such awesome feats would be is totally normal, as would the trauma over taking a life/unlife. I was just trying to see if there was a more pessimistic spin to put on it that would temper her creation abilities to Rin's destructive ones and provide a backdrop for why she'd quit cram school.

This place is amazing. :D
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: TipzyCat98 on February 04, 2018, 05:09:15 PM
Kinda rather serious, but a theory for why Mephisto denied giving Yukio his answers is because Yukio was rather rude about it. He did pretty much order him for the answers in a really...snappy way. While Rin seemed, calm and collected about it, and rather nice about it as well from what it looked like. So all in all, Mephisto will give you what you want if you treat him nicely.
Also, the roles are switched, Rin's the respectful one, while Yukio is really rude.
I saw this somewhere else, and I'm agreeing with them!
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Taytronics7 on February 04, 2018, 09:26:09 PM
^ That is an interesting theory. Shiemi's power are insanely OP. She also was affected by how she used it against the zombie. Goes well with the theories of her being a nephilim of Shemihaza.

Something I wondered in seeing Shiemi on the cover of chapter 87 was how her hair seemed to be turning into branches and flowers... I've wondered if she was really a human or even born. Her distant dreamy nature is like a fairy child. Reminds me of folk stories of making a child of clay that is animated by a spirit.

I hope Izumo will take Shiemi back to Futsumaya and have a talk with Shiemi's mom.

Thank you! I love making these theories, so it's appreciated. :D

Alright, I've got another one that kinda goes off this theory.

So we see that after Shiemi summons that forest, her nose starts dripping blood. After Rin faints, she does too. Is it possible that even after she wakes up, her condition will continue to worsen?

One of the main points of chapter 88 was that Rin and everyone else thought that Shiemi was going to die since she gave up on being an exorcist. Even though Shiemi says she's not dying or going away, I believe that the possibility of her dying was a kind of foreshadowing. Perhaps after she wakes up in a hospital, her condition doesn't improve, and her body continues to deteriorate.

It goes back to my other theory that Shiemi isn't human, but a demon that hasn't awakened an "ego" yet. Chapter 87 was called Embryo, and I assume we'll get a chapter called Fetus and eventually get  one that's called Birth. Why? The "embryo" that is hinted at in the title of chapter 87 is actually the beginning of a developing demon heart inside Shiemi. Remember in chapter 1 how Satan described Rin awakening as being reborn? He even says "Happy Birthday!"  to him before trying to drag him into Gehenna. Maybe that's the connection to embryo. Once it fully develops, Shiemi will technically be "reborn".

Very cool theory! It seems that things were foreshadowed (or at least they were given general points of future plot lines for the manga) for the anime with how things have come to pass, so maybe the homunculous is Shiemi, instead of Michelle, like in the anime. The word choice of embryo and her own jokes (and others') about her not being quite "human" would definitely fit with that. My only issue with that theory is that she actually gets wounded and bleeds.

Thanks! I like your theory too. However, I feel like if Shiemi really was sacrificing her life span to use her powers, she'd be in a lot worse shape then she is now since she keeps using stronger powers and uses them more and more. Plus, I think she'd age faster if that was happening due to her giving up her life span. I also think that Amaimon wouldn't be shown to be scared of her if she would just die from using her powers too much.

About how she doesn't regenerate, I think that would happen only once her demon heart reached a point where it's strong enough to cause fast healing. It's still in the "embryonic" stage at this point. Rin was born with a demon heart that was sealed in his sword so he already had strength and fast regeneration.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Kannra21 on February 05, 2018, 02:18:07 AM
Yukio has a thing for hairstyles. He was in 80th chaper commenting on Shura's hair and in the future, when he and Rin will meet again, would also comment on Rin's hair. Among his dreams for the future, he also thought about becoming a professional hairstylist, but feared that others would consider it stupid, so he wanted to become a doctor to apear more mature before their eyes. + The paper has been torn in many peaces and Rin only showed one part of it. This theory might stand a chance!XD
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: HorseTechie on February 05, 2018, 03:02:48 AM
Wow... I'm really getting into this new discussion on who Shiemi could be!  (Welcome aboard also, Kiellessa!)

It does make you wonder if there is a.limit to how much and how often she could use her powers to that level. Or that Shiemi could even take it up to that level with such ease.  She certainly gifted in some way, so I am eager to see if she also is a demon, or a nephilium.

I also have wondered about Shiemi's healing skills. Apart from using the right herbs, etc, does she have an energy about her as well? 

 
Quote from: TipzyCat98
link=topic=54.msg36601#msg36601 date=1517764155
Kinda rather serious, but a theory for why Mephisto denied giving Yukio his answers is because Yukio was rather rude about it. He did pretty much order him for the answers in a really...snappy way. While Rin seemed, calm and collected about it, and rather nice about it as well from what it looked like. So all in all, Mephisto will give you what you want if you treat him nicely.
Yes... and I think the timing was also terrible.

Mephisto also was about to go on stage for an important speech right when Yukio asked. It was thoughtless on Yukio's behalf to confront him at a time like that.  So of course the answer will be 'no, leave a memo!'     
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: earthforge on February 05, 2018, 06:52:06 AM
Kinda rather serious, but a theory for why Mephisto denied giving Yukio his answers is because Yukio was rather rude about it. He did pretty much order him for the answers in a really...snappy way. While Rin seemed, calm and collected about it, and rather nice about it as well from what it looked like. So all in all, Mephisto will give you what you want if you treat him nicely.
Yes... and I think the timing was also terrible.

Mephisto also was about to go on stage for an important speech right when Yukio asked. It was thoughtless on Yukio's behalf to confront him at a time like that.  So of course the answer will be 'no, leave a memo!'   

I strongly believe that Mephisto wouldn't have told Yukio a thing, no matter how Yukio asked. He's always done that. He smiled and brushed off Yukio's demands to know right after tossing Shiro's old job onto Yukio's shoulders. He taunted Yukio when he called in to ask about backup in the Inari arc, saying if he failed it was just because of his own incompetence. He is plenty aware of Yukio's situation, and only brings it up once in order to alert Rin.

Yukio obeyed Mephisto's orders loyally for months, initially trusting him, but gained nothing out of it. In fact, from his perspective, Mephisto simply exploited his loyalty. So why the hell should he be polite now? He was a loyal dog and it got him nowhere. Yukio also literally just came from of a freakin' suicide attempt. He completely, fully, and one-hundred-percentedly intended to kill himself. Needless to say, he wasn't exactly rational when he survived for reasons he couldn't understand. Yukio was in total rage, because nothing made any sense anymore.

Mephisto knows this. He knows everything. He knew Yukio was at the end of his rope. And he grinned that goblin grin, content to deny Yukio any answers. He was laughing at a ridiculous child who'd been stupid enough to think he deserved any answers.

This is why Yukio lost it and aimed his gun at Mephisto. Only after a gunshot hit Mephisto between the eyes did Yukio snap out of his rage and realize he'd been played all along. But it didn't matter, because all he'd had was now lost. Everything that tied him to reality: his job, his title, his recognition, was gone in an instant. Then, as if in mockery of it all, Rin breaks in to save him, reinforcing how nothing Yukio did ever mattered. Not the skills he learned, not the childhood he sacrificed. It was all pointless. He was always going to be a weak, pathetic, powerless coward saved by his older brother. So what a surprise that the only way he felt he could change that was to accept the Illuminati's offer. Yukio is tired of being powerless to keep himself from being manipulated. Even though he is with the Illuminati now, he rejects their ethos, fixating on the promised power.

Why does Mephisto consider Rin differently? From Mephisto's point-of-view, Rin is of similar status to him. Rin is Satan's son, the inheritor of the blue flames, and a demon with power greater than the Ba'al. Yukio is not. And, as Rin has said, Mephisto is an elitist. He outright references Rin's station whenever Rin talks to him. "The current you", "the way you are now", etc. are all him deliberately pointing out that Rin's status is now on a level worthy of his attention. Rin isn't worthy because he acts mature by the human definition. Rin is worthy because he is coming of age as a high-level demon, one superior in station to the Ba'al.

On that note, the only reason Rin is being polite with Mephisto now is because Rin is coming into this conversation with a cool head. He has realized that he can't afford to screw this up if he's to have any hope of reaching Yukio.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: TipzyCat98 on February 05, 2018, 01:18:04 PM
Kinda rather serious, but a theory for why Mephisto denied giving Yukio his answers is because Yukio was rather rude about it. He did pretty much order him for the answers in a really...snappy way. While Rin seemed, calm and collected about it, and rather nice about it as well from what it looked like. So all in all, Mephisto will give you what you want if you treat him nicely.
Yes... and I think the timing was also terrible.

Mephisto also was about to go on stage for an important speech right when Yukio asked. It was thoughtless on Yukio's behalf to confront him at a time like that.  So of course the answer will be 'no, leave a memo!'   

I strongly believe that Mephisto wouldn't have told Yukio a thing, no matter how Yukio asked. He's always done that. He smiled and brushed off Yukio's demands to know right after tossing Shiro's old job onto Yukio's shoulders. He taunted Yukio when he called in to ask about backup in the Inari arc, saying if he failed it was just because of his own incompetence. He is plenty aware of Yukio's situation, and only brings it up once in order to alert Rin.

Yukio obeyed Mephisto's orders loyally for months, initially trusting him, but gained nothing out of it. In fact, from his perspective, Mephisto simply exploited his loyalty. So why the hell should he be polite now? He was a loyal dog and it got him nowhere. Yukio also literally just came from of a freakin' suicide attempt. He completely, fully, and one-hundred-percentedly intended to kill himself. Needless to say, he wasn't exactly rational when he survived for reasons he couldn't understand. Yukio was in total rage, because nothing made any sense anymore.

Mephisto knows this. He knows everything. He knew Yukio was at the end of his rope. And he grinned that goblin grin, content to deny Yukio any answers. He was laughing at a ridiculous child who'd been stupid enough to think he deserved any answers.

This is why Yukio lost it and aimed his gun at Mephisto. Only after a gunshot hit Mephisto between the eyes did Yukio snap out of his rage and realize he'd been played all along. But it didn't matter, because all he'd had was now lost. Everything that tied him to reality: his job, his title, his recognition, was gone in an instant. Then, as if in mockery of it all, Rin breaks in to save him, reinforcing how nothing Yukio did ever mattered. Not the skills he learned, not the childhood he sacrificed. It was all pointless. He was always going to be a weak, pathetic, powerless coward saved by his older brother. So what a surprise that the only way he felt he could change that was to accept the Illuminati's offer. Yukio is tired of being powerless to keep himself from being manipulated. Even though he is with the Illuminati now, he rejects their ethos, fixating on the promised power.

Why does Mephisto consider Rin differently? From Mephisto's point-of-view, Rin is of similar status to him. Rin is Satan's son, the inheritor of the blue flames, and a demon with power greater than the Ba'al. Yukio is not. And, as Rin has said, Mephisto is an elitist. He outright references Rin's station whenever Rin talks to him. "The current you", "the way you are now", etc. are all him deliberately pointing out that Rin's status is now on a level worthy of his attention. Rin isn't worthy because he acts mature by the human definition. Rin is worthy because he is coming of age as a high-level demon, one superior in station to the Ba'al.

On that note, the only reason Rin is being polite with Mephisto now is because Rin is coming into this conversation with a cool head. He has realized that he can't afford to screw this up if he's to have any hope of reaching Yukio.





That is actually a really good point. Yukio wasn't in the right mind at all, and Mephisto used it to twist things into a fate that went completely wrong. Though Rin is cool headed, and well mannered, with a new state of power, I still kinda feel that Mephisto enjoys it when he's respected, though he may not show that respect right back to those who do show said respect. But that's my opinion XD and you opinion is amazing and shined a better light on everything.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Kannra21 on February 05, 2018, 01:58:02 PM
Kinda rather serious, but a theory for why Mephisto denied giving Yukio his answers is because Yukio was rather rude about it. He did pretty much order him for the answers in a really...snappy way. While Rin seemed, calm and collected about it, and rather nice about it as well from what it looked like. So all in all, Mephisto will give you what you want if you treat him nicely.
Yes... and I think the timing was also terrible.

Mephisto also was about to go on stage for an important speech right when Yukio asked. It was thoughtless on Yukio's behalf to confront him at a time like that.  So of course the answer will be 'no, leave a memo!'   

I strongly believe that Mephisto wouldn't have told Yukio a thing, no matter how Yukio asked. He's always done that. He smiled and brushed off Yukio's demands to know right after tossing Shiro's old job onto Yukio's shoulders. He taunted Yukio when he called in to ask about backup in the Inari arc, saying if he failed it was just because of his own incompetence. He is plenty aware of Yukio's situation, and only brings it up once in order to alert Rin.

Yukio obeyed Mephisto's orders loyally for months, initially trusting him, but gained nothing out of it. In fact, from his perspective, Mephisto simply exploited his loyalty. So why the hell should he be polite now? He was a loyal dog and it got him nowhere. Yukio also literally just came from of a freakin' suicide attempt. He completely, fully, and one-hundred-percentedly intended to kill himself. Needless to say, he wasn't exactly rational when he survived for reasons he couldn't understand. Yukio was in total rage, because nothing made any sense anymore.

Mephisto knows this. He knows everything. He knew Yukio was at the end of his rope. And he grinned that goblin grin, content to deny Yukio any answers. He was laughing at a ridiculous child who'd been stupid enough to think he deserved any answers.

This is why Yukio lost it and aimed his gun at Mephisto. Only after a gunshot hit Mephisto between the eyes did Yukio snap out of his rage and realize he'd been played all along. But it didn't matter, because all he'd had was now lost. Everything that tied him to reality: his job, his title, his recognition, was gone in an instant. Then, as if in mockery of it all, Rin breaks in to save him, reinforcing how nothing Yukio did ever mattered. Not the skills he learned, not the childhood he sacrificed. It was all pointless. He was always going to be a weak, pathetic, powerless coward saved by his older brother. So what a surprise that the only way he felt he could change that was to accept the Illuminati's offer. Yukio is tired of being powerless to keep himself from being manipulated. Even though he is with the Illuminati now, he rejects their ethos, fixating on the promised power.

Why does Mephisto consider Rin differently? From Mephisto's point-of-view, Rin is of similar status to him. Rin is Satan's son, the inheritor of the blue flames, and a demon with power greater than the Ba'al. Yukio is not. And, as Rin has said, Mephisto is an elitist. He outright references Rin's station whenever Rin talks to him. "The current you", "the way you are now", etc. are all him deliberately pointing out that Rin's status is now on a level worthy of his attention. Rin isn't worthy because he acts mature by the human definition. Rin is worthy because he is coming of age as a high-level demon, one superior in station to the Ba'al.

On that note, the only reason Rin is being polite with Mephisto now is because Rin is coming into this conversation with a cool head. He has realized that he can't afford to screw this up if he's to have any hope of reaching Yukio.





That is actually a really good point. Yukio wasn't in the right mind at all, and Mephisto used it to twist things into a fate that went completely wrong. Though Rin is cool headed, and well mannered, with a new state of power, I still kinda feel that Mephisto enjoys it when he's respected, though he may not show that respect right back to those who do show said respect. But that's my opinion XD and you opinion is amazing and shined a better light on everything.

Yea I don't think it's about respect that much. Mephisto deliberately does not reveal anything to Yukio because all of this was a part of his plan (he knew he would join the Illuminati etc.). His goal was to make Yukio become a traitor before everyone's eyes so that Rin could lose control of himself. Everything went according to his plan except when he was shot by another person because he was expecting Yukio to shoot him instead.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: Cloelia on February 05, 2018, 02:01:27 PM
On that note, the only reason Rin is being polite with Mephisto now is because Rin is coming into this conversation with a cool head. He has realized that he can't afford to screw this up if he's to have any hope of reaching Yukio.

*cries* I read a similar comment from you on tumblr too and it made me cry there too.

I got reminded of Rin's line in chapter 95: "Why wasn't I more understanding that time?!" Thinking about Rin trying his best to not repeat the same mistake he did with Yukio (let his fear to learn the truth about their origins take over causing him to lose a possible chance to help his brother) 'cause he still feels guilty about it is so sweet. I know it's obvious that's how things are but I so wish Rin would've said something about it at the end of his (formal) request for explanations to Mephisto too. Like: "I need to know the truth. Not only for me. But for Yukio too." That would've so turned into my second favorite Rin's line about Yukio ever (so far). (the top 1 is, well: "I'm not gonna leave him alone!")

Kinda rather serious, but a theory for why Mephisto denied giving Yukio his answers is because Yukio was rather rude about it.

Even I blamed Yukio's (lack of) manners too. But I merely did it for the sake of a joke. Honestly, I too believe the reason behind Mephisto's refusal it's not related to -how- Yukio asked to be told the truth. As already said before and as said by Kannra21 here too, all Mephisto wished/actually planned was to -force- Yukio to join the Illuminati. Mephisto knew if he'd refuse to give him any answers, Yukio would've gone looking for them elsewhere. Therefore, he refused to tell Yukio the truth. As pointed out by earthy too, Yukio already asked Mephisto to tell him the truth (in his office, right after Shiro's death), but Mephisto still refused and kept playing his videogames (so the conference is not to blame).

Also, in chapter 94, Mephisto received a call from Shima telling him Yukio was about to break 1 second before Yukio showed up at Mephisto's back. So Mephisto was completely aware if he denied Yukio those infos, that would've been the final push to send Yukio to the Illuminati. And he took that chance. 'Cause that's what he wanted.
Title: Re: Crack theories
Post by: tandem on February 05, 2018, 03:11:30 PM
I'd like to throw some counterarguments to these theory …

What if every time she creates life with Nii-chan as a conduit (he provides the earth) that she uses a bit of her own life force to do it. That would make things EXTREMELY dangerous for her to continue using them in such a way and being an Exorcist would quite literally shorten her life. She gets taxed far more than any other tamer when using Nii-chan to grow plants.

I’m positive her mom has ulterior motives, and this is a little out there, but maybe THAT’S what she was told to her and it scared her into quitting, on top of being HUGE info [Nephilim]. She’s too far removed from being a “living concept” (as Mephisto described demons) and is a flesh and blood creature, there is no endless source of power. She can’t generate life from nothing and it has to come from somewhere... herself.

And just like how Yukio was concerned that Rin was using his flames too much (at the cost of his humanity), her power use comes with a cost, too. Her life.
However, Shiemi was with Nii-chan when she made the decision to quit in chapter 87. Moreover, next chapter she even use it, not to save people, but to create a Christmas tree for the party but unfortunately ruined the party instead. So I think it's highly unlikely she's afraid to use this power. And if it's anything about her health you would expect her mother to explicitly forbid her just like in chapter 3, but her mother was like “After hearing this, if you still insist I won't stop you.” Moreover, if it's too risky to be a tamer, she could just be a doctor or aria.

Like Cloelia said, it's quite common for a tamer to feel exhausted after summoning. Until now Bon, Shima, Izumo all have once lost conscious after using a huge tamer ability. (Though it seems like Shiemi is the most serious case due to the apparent nose bleeding, but think about it, she is confronting Satan’s son.)

Anyway, here I am with a (not cracky) but totally crazy theory. Feel free to kill me, I allow you. But here's what's been running in my mind these last 3 days: what if it turns out Yukio, and I mean the Yukio we've seen so far, is actualy the demon version of himself while, opposite to Rin, is his human side the one "trapped" somewhere inside him?

Not cracky at all! I thought of something similar. If Yukio's powers were simply dormant, then they were never sealed, meaning that Yukio might not have developed a human soul like Rin. Ins